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Florida Panthers going into Bankruptcy?

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Old
04-16-2012, 09:22 AM
  #151
adam graves
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Originally Posted by Clint View Post
As someone who was in attendance at game 1 (empty seats? I saw maybe a dozen) my two tickets, parking, food, and booze cost me just under $300. And they were okay seats.
What a spectacular atmosphere the post season has had.

Wit the revenue stream from the new 10 million dollar suite seats, and the potential of the hotel deal coming through, what a powerhouse this will be in years to come.

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04-16-2012, 09:35 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
OK, let me ask something, and I'm going to have to use some assumptions because I don't know the specific terms of the lease. I'm going to assume that, as in Tampa, the county owns the building and the hockey team is the main tenant, which gives the team's ownership leasehold rights to the building. The conversation so far makes it sound that way for the Panthers.

In a bankruptcy that involves reorganization, etc., do the creditors not have at least some percentage of the monies owed by the bankrupt company paid back to them? In this instance, would the county be considered a creditor since it holds that lease? And, if so, would the lease not have to be renegotiated or restructured to fit within whatever guidelines are set forth by the bankruptcy court? That could end the sweetheart deal and open a whole new can of worms if that's the case.
kdb and aqib answered you far better then I could. I'm not a legalese guy, I just know the details. (If that makes any sense, lol)

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04-16-2012, 10:54 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 View Post
OK, let me ask something, and I'm going to have to use some assumptions because I don't know the specific terms of the lease. I'm going to assume that, as in Tampa, the county owns the building and the hockey team is the main tenant, which gives the team's ownership leasehold rights to the building. The conversation so far makes it sound that way for the Panthers.

In a bankruptcy that involves reorganization, etc., do the creditors not have at least some percentage of the monies owed by the bankrupt company paid back to them? In this instance, would the county be considered a creditor since it holds that lease? And, if so, would the lease not have to be renegotiated or restructured to fit within whatever guidelines are set forth by the bankruptcy court? That could end the sweetheart deal and open a whole new can of worms if that's the case.
One thing I forgot in my earlier answer with respect to the lease, its going to depend on the terms of the lease. In general leases can be rejected in Bankruptcy. Think of KMart for example (I use KMart because I worked on that one back in 2002) so they have leases on buildings all over the country they can go to the court and as part of their reorganization plan can ask the court to void those out.

So if a team has a lease on a building they can void it in bankruptcy. Now if the lease has some sort of penalties for breaking the lease the city maybe entitled to some percentage but they will be further back in line than a lot of the other creditors. Thats why Balsille was willing to pay Glendale $50 million. Essentially he was buying out their rights to object.

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04-16-2012, 12:40 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
It is very sad that toronto, the worst franchise in sports, who hasn't won a cup since it was a six team league, is dumb enough to pay for failure. Other original six teams like Chicago and Boston reacted to losing by simply not showing ..... driving their attendance dramatically down and forcing a change in the product....capitalism at its best.... If Toronto fans continue to support such a pathetic franchise, no one is responsible for helping them. Until then, feel free to come down to Florida and enjoy playoffs and sunshine!


As a lifelong Leaf fan who was actually alive & remembers its Glory Days (and players) I dont have any problem whatsoever with the RS program, though I do have a problem with teams who are recipients of the payments failing to break free from relying upon them in perpetuity. Thats just lousy marketing, intransigent ownership, bad management, icing non-competitive teams. Outside factors such as an economic meltdown regionally or nationally/globally can certainly send even the best run businesses reeling, requiring assistance.

Wasnt that long ago that Canada stood to lose 3, possibly 5 teams due to its struggling dollar, Winnipeg gone, the Equalization System brought in too late to save the Diques', Ottawa bankrupt; talk of the storied Canadiens' being a candidate for relocation. Though far from going bust, from about 80-81 to 91 there were rows upon rows of empty seats at Maple Leaf Gardens, most owned by STH's and therefore paid for regardless, however, you could pick them up for face value or less on the re-sale market. Hard to say what mightve happened had Harold Ballard lived another 20 years & accomplished his lifelong mission of destroying a once proud franchise. Chicago of course faced a similar fate with Wirtz. Detroit just a mess for much of the late 60's, the 70's & early 80's. Boston & the Rangers not much more than farm teams, dumping grounds from the mid-40's through the mid 60's.

Toronto is of course a complete & utter anomaly. One has to purchase a Seat License (about $27,000) to reserve the right to purchase Seasons Tickets, then your dropping another (minimum) $10,000+++ for a couple of seats every year, the vast majority paying double that amount, probably less than about 000.1% of the teams actual fan base seeing games on a regular basis live & in-person. The ACC stacked full of stuffed suits who run the purchases through their companies and or multi-generational older monied ticket holders, elitist hockey connoisseurs who dont LOL, clap, crack a smile or God Forbid show any emotion while watching the annual Funerary Marches' taking place on the ice below.

Comparing Toronto's lot, as ToddGillForever's done in castigating markets where tickets are reasonably priced & available, people wanting to at least see their teams show up & compete, even having the luxury of voting with their wallets instead of just bending over & taking it or being completely shutout of ever enjoying the live NHL experience in their hometown isnt a fair comparison whatsoever. Chalk & cheese. Eliminate the Caps', Contract, you'd be left with about 10 teams, which would then give rise to a competitive league and the kind anarchy witnessed throughout the 70's with the WHA. No thanks. Let these markets eat cake at decent prices with subsidies as required and eventually they'll succeed. Why should someone in North Toronto or West Vancouver begrudge a Florida or Phoenix its right to be in the league & play? Those teams put us on the map as much as we do they. Get over it already.

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04-16-2012, 12:41 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
Maybe because it's hard to accept the current welfare rules in the NHL? It's more than a little galling for some of us to have to pay massive prices for tickets in Toronto, knowing full well that a fair chunk of change is immediately going to subsidize the likes of Florida with their "Four Tickets for $50!" dealios.

I'd like to see some fairness in the league again. You've got the NHL itself propping up Phoenix, and other welfare cases all over the south being kept alive solely by transfers from the likes of Toronto and Montreal. Sorry, I've nothing against fans of those teams. But if those teams can't pay the bills on their own, they should be shipped off to better markets where they can be self-sufficient. That, and/or teams should be contracted. Funny, that's what we were told here in Canada in the 90s. Now, though, it's a "fight to the death" struggle by Bettman and Daly to keep alive all of the US clubs hemorrhaging money.
that has more to do with consumer demand than revenue sharing. Also lets not make it out to seem that the maple leafs are poor because all of their revenue is going to teams like phoenix and florida.

Isnt MLSE worth several billion?


Last edited by PanthersHockey1: 04-16-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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04-16-2012, 12:50 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by panthersflames1 View Post
Isnt MLSE worth several hundred billion?
The Leafs alone are valued at app. $550M, however when you throw in the Raptors, Marlies, TFC, the ACC & real estate holdings, broadcasting etc adds' up to about $1.2-5B, Rogers/Bell about to take ownership from the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund, and a marriage made in Hell if ever there was one... but hey, thanks for your concern pf. Oh, and thanks for Phaneuf, dont know what we'd do without him.

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04-16-2012, 01:16 PM
  #157
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HAHA, speaking of ridiculous prices in Toronto.

This is going off my trip last May to Detroit with the girlfriend:

$150 three day car rental
$150 gas total
$200 for two tickets (2nd Round, Game 4)
$205 two day hotel stay
$300 merchandise bought

$1,005 total spent for two people


Know what 2nd round playoff tickets for mid-seats for the Leafs would have cost? Probably that entire trip above JUST FOR TICKETS.


I've been doing this for years, although I've gone to some Sabres games too. I use to live in St. Catharines and it would cost $20 for a round-trip to Buffalo and you could get decent tickets for $50.


I haven't been to a Leafs game in Toronto in years.

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04-16-2012, 01:46 PM
  #158
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... I haven't been to a Leafs game in Toronto in years.
Not even the new legislation being brought in that restricts the tax write-off's formerly permitted in Ontario when purchasing tickets' will illicit so much as a croak from the throats of the Zombie Army inhabiting the seats at the ACC.... and ya, you could book a couple of seats through Westjet or whatever to Phoenix or Sunrise, stay in at least a 4 star, take in a Playoff Game for about the same as what you'd pay for a pair of tickets at the ACC for a Regular Season game. That figure being bandied about of app. $600 for 4 to take in a game at the ACC is so far off the mark as to be a really bad joke.

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04-16-2012, 02:39 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
It is very sad that toronto, the worst franchise in sports, who hasn't won a cup since it was a six team league, is dumb enough to pay for failure.

Other original six teams like Chicago and Boston reacted to losing by simply not showing ..... driving their attendance dramatically down and forcing a change in the product....capitalism at its best.

If Toronto fans continue to support such a pathetic franchise, no one is responsible for helping them.

Until then, feel free to come down to Florida and enjoy playoffs and sunshine!
If the fans of the rich teams all acted as you suggest, and said "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" then what would teams like Florida survive on? Drive the attendance down in the big NHL cities, and clubs like yours would pretty much collapse. Or the league itself would implode, because the first major change would have to be the PA accepting a radically different contract with far lower caps and contracts.

Hey, I agree that the Leafs suck. I agree that MLSE ***** consumers. I haven't paid to see a Leafs game since MLG was open. But come on. Why should fans of teams like Toronto, Montreal, NYR, etc. pay more to subsidize the NHL's sad sacks? Also, how does this benefit the NHL overall? Unless you still subscribe to the rationale behind the big expansion, which of course was Bettman's dream of a huge US TV deal, the current structure of the NHL and its revenue sharing model clearly does not work well.

It's a great idea in theory, as everyone helps out for the betterment of the league overall. This is clearly based on the NFL model. But how the hell does this work for the NHL without a big national TV deal in the US, like the NFL has? There, you've got some great reasons for keeping all of the NFL cities healthy, as the league really works like one big national entity. There, you can see benefits to pretending that Green Bay is on a level playing field with New York and Dallas. Not so with the NHL, where no serious, concrete monetary benefits have EVER been realized by propping up teams all over the US.

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04-16-2012, 02:44 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Not even the new legislation being brought in that restricts the tax write-off's formerly permitted in Ontario when purchasing tickets' will illicit so much as a croak from the throats of the Zombie Army inhabiting the seats at the ACC.... and ya, you could book a couple of seats through Westjet or whatever to Phoenix or Sunrise, stay in at least a 4 star, take in a Playoff Game for about the same as what you'd pay for a pair of tickets at the ACC for a Regular Season game. That figure being bandied about of app. $600 for 4 to take in a game at the ACC is so far off the mark as to be a really bad joke.
I totally agree. But how does MLSE cut prices? Okay, so the Leafs and all of the other big teams in the league all drop prices to the league average. Sounds good. But how do these teams still provide the corporate welfare that makes all of the bottom revenue teams stay viable?

Like I said before, the NHL is built on a house of cards. Revenue sharing only works if there is some big corporate goal to work towards, or is being realized, like the NFL's huge TV deals that rely on the league's nationwide presence. Where is that motivating factor in the NHL? Why would Toronto or the Rangers be interested in continuing to prop up Florida, Phoenix, etc? What's in it for them? The Leafs take massive abuse for being so high-priced, but in reality those high prices are helping keep the entire damn NHL afloat.

I'm all for dropping Leafs prices. But to do that, you're going to have to agree to move a few teams and contract a few more. And brawl with the PA over drastically reduced caps and salaries.

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04-16-2012, 02:58 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
If the fans of the rich teams all acted as you suggest, and said "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" then what would teams like Florida survive on? Drive the attendance down in the big NHL cities, and clubs like yours would pretty much collapse. Or the league itself would implode, because the first major change would have to be the PA accepting a radically different contract with far lower caps and contracts.

Hey, I agree that the Leafs suck. I agree that MLSE ***** consumers. I haven't paid to see a Leafs game since MLG was open. But come on. Why should fans of teams like Toronto, Montreal, NYR, etc. pay more to subsidize the NHL's sad sacks? Also, how does this benefit the NHL overall? Unless you still subscribe to the rationale behind the big expansion, which of course was Bettman's dream of a huge US TV deal, the current structure of the NHL and its revenue sharing model clearly does not work well.

It's a great idea in theory, as everyone helps out for the betterment of the league overall. This is clearly based on the NFL model. But how the hell does this work for the NHL without a big national TV deal in the US, like the NFL has? There, you've got some great reasons for keeping all of the NFL cities healthy, as the league really works like one big national entity. There, you can see benefits to pretending that Green Bay is on a level playing field with New York and Dallas. Not so with the NHL, where no serious, concrete monetary benefits have EVER been realized by propping up teams all over the US.


Please cite me the table showing what each "poor" team reiceived and what each "rich team" contributes last year.

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04-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
And brawl with the PA over drastically reduced caps and salaries.
I can't pretend to know what a new CBA will look like, but under the old one, I didn't think a brawl would be necessary. If league revenue goes down, the cap goes down. if revenue goes up the cap goes up. isn't that the way it's worded?

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04-16-2012, 03:14 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
Wit the revenue stream from the new 10 million dollar suite seats...
7.7MM... All seriousness though. Is Yormark going to find a minimum of 300-470 (by my math) Club Red Members @ $22,500 per seat to hit break even on that 7.7MM loan? Without an attached Casino/Hotel? (segue)

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... and the potential of the hotel deal coming through, what a powerhouse this will be in years to come.
Posted link in the other thread (Florida Panthers CEO Michael Yormark trying to establish team in region) but I'll elaborate a bit more here:

Quote:
Plan for mega-casinos dies in Florida House

TALLAHASSEE A statewide television ad campaign, glitzy architectural renderings even the promise of thousands of jobs couldn't change the political odds this year against the resort casino bill in Tallahassee.

House sponsor Erik Fresen, R-Miami, abruptly pulled the bill from consideration on Friday, when it was clear that the House committee hearing it for the first time wasn't going to deliver the votes for passage. Proponents will have to wait until 2013 to try again...

The not-unexpected defeat of the plan to build three $2 billion mega casinos in Miami-Dade and Broward "was not about policy,'' said Sen. Ellyn Bogdanoff, a Fort Lauderdale Republican and Senate sponsor of the bill. "It was about politics."
Now I admit... I thought for sure because who was bank-rolling the lobbyists, who the author and co-authors of the Casino Bill were and their connections, and other intangibles, that the bill would pass. That the only real threat of opposition would have came from the Seminole Tribe and their existing Compact with the State.

Now that it's been dead, with reports that have come out since, a re-attempt can be made in the next legislative session in 2013. Gotta tell ya, if Rick Scott, Pam Bondi, The Florida Chamber of Commerce, Disney, Norm Braman, Casino No Coalition, local Municipalities voting No, and essentially just about every Conservative in House and Senate up for re-election vehemently opposing it... it isn't going to happen. No matter how much money is thrown behind it. Florida being Florida, if it still were to somehow pass you'd still have to get past the Seminoles. And the Compact, despite what Tallahassee opponents of that Compact say... it is worth the paper it's written on.

There was a mention of a "end-around" by the big Casino's but if the cat's outta the bag now then I gotta believe the opposition is already sharpening their axes in preparation now.

Quote:
Genting has explored bypassing the Legislature and conducting a statewide petition drive to bring a referendum on the ballot in 2014 that would allow Miami-Dade and Broward counties to approve resort casinos. According to the Florida Division of Elections, they have not yet officially formed the required political committee to collect signatures to start the long process.

"Bring it on,'' said Dan Gelber, consultant for No Casinos and a former state senator from Miami Beach. "Let them come in with huge amounts of money. People will have the good sense to know this is a sucker's bet."

With the demise of the resort casino bill, legislators are turning their attention to the expansion of gambling in smaller measures across the state and raising questions about what impact they will have on the state's revenue-sharing agreement with the Seminole Tribe.

Under the tribal compact, the tribe has the exclusive right to operate slot machines outside of Miami-Dade and Broward or it can without payments to the state. This year, the tribe is set to pay $233 million.
http://www.tampabay.com/news/busines...ousepp/1213770

Other reads

http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/the-bu...amis-landscape

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/02/0...the-issue.html

To hopefully steer this thread back towards speculation of a Bankruptcy (I too do not give Bob much credence)... it could, could be a possibility at some point.

Bear in mind:

They have only crossed north of the revenue sharing clause with Broward once

Beginning this September, their County obligations and payements are set to start going up by I believe an additional 1.3MM and when the loan repayments (7.7MM and the 7.5MM) kick in FY2013 that amount goes into the 5.5-6.8 million range on top of their County Arena debt/obligations. Which means, ticket price increases, at least 400 CR Memberships, consistent (and deep) playoff runs etc... as a start.

I'm not at my spot with the financials I've pulled but will come in later and post the figures later. Or anyone can look at the links I provided in my previous post.

In closing, I'll leave you with this. The telling sign will be this coming season (of how things may or may not be turning around financially) is when either the Miami Herald or Sun Sentinel publish an article whether or not the Panthers cleared the Revenue Sharing clause with Broward. If Broward gets some money off of that clause, then it bodes well...

If there is no Revenue Sharing, despite attendance being up and a Playoff appearance...

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04-16-2012, 03:24 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
7.7MM... All seriousness though. Is Yormark going to find a minimum of 300-470 (by my math) Club Red Members @ $22,500 per seat to hit break even on that 7.7MM loan? Without an attached Casino/Hotel? (segue)

He certainly believes so, and hasnt been wrong much to date.

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04-16-2012, 04:00 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
I totally agree. But how does MLSE cut prices? Okay, so the Leafs and all of the other big teams in the league all drop prices to the league average. Sounds good. But how do these teams still provide the corporate welfare that makes all of the bottom revenue teams stay viable?

Like I said before, the NHL is built on a house of cards. Revenue sharing only works if there is some big corporate goal to work towards, or is being realized, like the NFL's huge TV deals that rely on the league's nationwide presence. Where is that motivating factor in the NHL? Why would Toronto or the Rangers be interested in continuing to prop up Florida, Phoenix, etc? What's in it for them? The Leafs take massive abuse for being so high-priced, but in reality those high prices are helping keep the entire damn NHL afloat.

I'm all for dropping Leafs prices. But to do that, you're going to have to agree to move a few teams and contract a few more. And brawl with the PA over drastically reduced caps and salaries.
While some may nod their heads in agreement in terms of it being a necessary cost.

I will continue to stand by my belief the league SHOULD contract.

I certainly did not understand the ramifications of the 4th expansion in the late 90s, but if I could go back I would strongly oppose it. It was done in a completely different economic climate.

The issue here is that the Canadian economy fluctuates like the U.S. but Canada has a lesser base than the U.S. and thus cannot be relied upon to be a temporary boom.

Put a team in Hamilton and Quebec by all means, but if the Canadian economy tanks and historical patterns indicate it will take a dip sooner or later, you have a lesser base to pull from and have to move the team or cut league costs.

I see this first hand in Detroit, a city with a MUCH bigger base than most of the Canadian markets, the bad economy has pummeled that city bad, but yet the metro is so large and the surrounding regions, the four teams can still survive.

This isn't the case for a city like Hamilton.


This is why I do believe the league should have stayed at 28 teams, everything I'm seeing year in and year out tells me for the foreseeable future THAT is the league maximum. Not 30 teams.

It ain't about geographics here either. Most current hockey teams will suffer with prolonged futility. It arguably stems from the fact 14 teams miss playoffs as oppose to the previous 5, 6, 7, etc.

And I just don't see 30 long-term hockey markets right now.

Not even two teams in Toronto would work in the long-term because it would make both teams less valuable than one.

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04-16-2012, 04:17 PM
  #166
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So, after all the back and forth, what's the consensus - Panthers in bankruptcy-scale trouble, or not?

 
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04-16-2012, 05:10 PM
  #167
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So, after all the back and forth, what's the consensus - Panthers in bankruptcy-scale trouble, or not?
I dont believe so, not at this time nor even in the near future. A couple three years ago pretty close to it, but I dont even detect smoldering underground embers still burning that could ignite another catastrophic fire. Not a whiff of smoke.

Quite the opposite in fact.

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04-16-2012, 07:25 PM
  #168
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I dont believe so, not at this time nor even in the near future. A couple three years ago pretty close to it, but I dont even detect smoldering underground embers still burning that could ignite another catastrophic fire. Not a whiff of smoke.

Quite the opposite in fact.
Bingo.

/thread.

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04-16-2012, 07:41 PM
  #169
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But how does MLSE cut prices?
Do you see what it says at the top of the page Todd?. F L O R I D A P A N T H E R S. Nuff said bout da Leafs & MLSE already. I know its hard to read through the tears but at least try will ya?. Man up. Your embarrassing the Colors. May have to see to it that your thrown out of the Regiment. Wont be having any Crybabys on My Team. Cashier your ass right outta here...

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04-16-2012, 08:35 PM
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If this does happen, then you have 2 bankrupt franchises in the Panthers & Devils followed by the Coyotes being owned by the NHL and the Islanders with no new arena in sight all while going into the CBA discussions. When does contraction finally become an option for this league?

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04-16-2012, 08:58 PM
  #171
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If this does happen, then you have 2 bankrupt franchises in the Panthers & Devils followed by the Coyotes being owned by the NHL and the Islanders with no new arena in sight all while going into the CBA discussions. When does contraction finally become an option for this league?
One, the Panthers aren't going into bankruptcy and are not in trouble. They are in fact on a path of coming out of their very long lean years. Two, the Devils are just finding new investors. It's a common thing with ownership groups and while the Devils definitely have their issues, they aren't exactly in danger of folding anytime soon either. The Islanders will find a place to play. Contraction will never become an option as long as there are open markets for them to relocate to first. And at the very worst for the Coyotes, Panthers, Devils, and Islanders, there are at least four places they could go to and really only one of those teams actually has a good chance of using that option at this point.

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04-16-2012, 09:13 PM
  #172
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I dont believe so, not at this time nor even in the near future. A couple three years ago pretty close to it, but I dont even detect smoldering underground embers still burning that could ignite another catastrophic fire. Not a whiff of smoke.

Quite the opposite in fact.
I think I may have possibly found the origin of this Bankruptcy thing by McCown. Perhaps chunks of the pertinent details lost while traveling the Can-Am Grapevine?

Quote:
Florida Panthers Settle Rothstein Clawback. April 9, 2012, 4:46 PM.

Showing that they have some claws, too, the Florida Panthers recently won court approval to pay less than half of a $31,250 clawback lawsuit tied to the $1.2 billion-plus Ponzi scheme run by disbarred Florida attorney Scott Rothstein.

Judge Raymond B. Ray of the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Fort Lauderdale last week signed off on a $12,000 settlement between the National Hockey League team and bankruptcy trustee Herbert Stettin, court papers show.

...

Rothstein’s firm had a sponsorship agreement with the Panthers at BankAtlantic Center, their arena in the Fort Lauderdale suburb of Sunrise. According to the lawsuit, the firm paid the Panthers on Sept. 8, 2009, mere weeks before the firm’s dissolution and less than three months before Rothstein’s arrest.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
He certainly believes so, and hasnt been wrong much to date.
Guess he missed the (Yor)mark on that sponsorship.

I can go on and on about how I don't believe the Panthers Organization and the BAC are as financially sound as some seem to contend but, directly involving a bankruptcy looming? Think this kills it, no?


Last edited by Major4Boarding: 04-16-2012 at 09:44 PM.
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04-16-2012, 09:16 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
According to Bob Mccown on PTS the Florida Panthers and NJ Devil will declare bankruptcy at the end of the seasons. Interesting! Around the 24 min mark at the 5PM section fo the show; http://www.fan590.com/onair/primetimesports/
Ok after readying 5 pages of why the Panthers aren't going to declare bankruptcy.... I'm just going to throw this out and see if it sticks to the ceiling....

Let's assume for a second that Bob has a legite source and the Panthers do declare bankruptcy. Also asuming that they are in a positin to turn the corner and become more financially stable ( according to the Panther supporters on HFB ), is there any benefit at all to going into BK???? Ie: to reorganize the business or debt ? Just because you claim bankruptcy doesn't mean you are going out of business.


Last edited by cbcwpg: 04-16-2012 at 09:23 PM.
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04-16-2012, 09:24 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
...at least four places they could go to and really only one of those teams actually has a good chance of using that option at this point.
... and winding up in Shanghai City down there in Warren County.

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04-16-2012, 10:10 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
I think I may have possibly found the origin of this Bankruptcy thing by McCown. Perhaps chunks of the pertinent details lost while traveling the Can-Am Grapevine?
I doubt that Major. The thought of McCown or any one of his guests reading the Wall Street Journal or NYT is laughable. Scantily dressed women on page 3 of the Toronto Sun, maybe, though I do wonder about those guys on that score sometimes. A tad over-patronizing of one another, stroke artists. Still, Im glad you brought this to our attention. The franchise possibly going bust based on being the innocent recipients of a dirty thirty grand & settling with the trustee for 12K is clearly an obvious sign the clubs circling the drain....

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