IMHO some of the best hockey ever played has been at the Canada Cup, Olympics, and World Cup. Those were not chippy affairs.
What we're seeing does not resemble anything like that. I think its closer to hyperbole of the mindless thugery.
I honestly think if a coaches mandate is to do ANYTHING it takes to win... Bitz should take out the knees and end the career of Jonathan Quick. There's already zero respect for players anyways, and it's only a matter of time before this becomes commonplace.
While I agree that what's being going on in the Pens/Flyers series is not good hockey I don't think it's quite all that bad.
The other series have been rough but nothing terribly unusual in terms of the playoffs. I don't think the game or respect is changing that much, but the level of examination by fans and media alike is the real big change. Plays are broken down second by second now and replayed ad nasuem until everyone everywhere has some sort of opinion on it. That kind of thing didn't used to happen.
I've found that I have to take a step back from all the talk about individual plays and the supplementary discipline because I just can't handle the ridiculous exaggerations it produces from people.
I often wonder about people who watch violent sport and complain about it after
There seems to be a disconnect from people's understanding of how a violent sport played by ultra competitive men is going to unfold.
Depends which side of the fence of this game one is on. I was a clear fan of the Montreal Canadiens when they took out the Broadstreet Bullies with a better standard of hockey, one the Edmonton Oilers later emulated for years against hack teams like the Boston Bruins or the Flames, or the Flyers.
Its clear that different teams use different strategies to win and imo its also clear which teams play a purer, honest, version of the game.
Its also clear people are talking about a rampant escalation of violence. What skilled player hasn't had several close calls by now only into the first few games of the first round?
How would you feel if Wayne Gretzky was lying on the ice concussed. Wouldn't matter much what Semenko would do if a coach threw somebody over the boards with the purposeful intent of injuring the star player. This is whats happening now and from the looks of it commonly.
IMHO some of the best hockey ever played has been at the Canada Cup, Olympics, and World Cup. Those were not chippy affairs.
What we're seeing does not resemble anything like that. I think its closer to hyperbole of the mindless thugery.
I honestly think if a coaches mandate is to do ANYTHING it takes to win... Bitz should take out the knees and end the career of Jonathan Quick. There's already zero respect for players anyways, and it's only a matter of time before this becomes commonplace.
Exactly.
You don't need the thuggery for an excellent game. Quick example. 1975 NYE game between Red Army and Montreal Canadiens ended in a 3-3 draw, was a showcase of the best hockey played on the planet, and a game the fans have cherished forever.
Conversely the Flyers game with Red Army a week later was nothing like that and was a snapshot of the Flyers goonery and unwillingness to just play the game.
How a longtime fan feels about todays issues is probably established by which side of the fence they were on in those long ago contests.
If you preferred the Flyers game, and win at any cost, then you support the notion that its OK just to take out the other teams stars purposely. Which is exactly what Bobby Clarke did in the Summit series.
Depends which side of the fence of this game one is on. I was a clear fan of the Montreal Canadiens when they took out the Broadstreet Bullies with a better standard of hockey, one the Edmonton Oilers later emulated for years against hack teams like the Boston Bruins or the Flames, or the Flyers.
Its clear that different teams use different strategies to win and imo its also clear which teams play a purer, honest, version of the game.
Its also clear people are talking about a rampant escalation of violence. What skilled player hasn't had several close calls by now only into the first few games of the first round?
How would you feel if Wayne Gretzky was lying on the ice concussed. Wouldn't matter much what Semenko would do if a coach threw somebody over the boards with the purposeful intent of injuring the star player. This is whats happening now and from the looks of it commonly.
You see in your mind you think one team is playing "pure" hockey and one team is playing "savage" hockey.
The problem with teams like Pittsburgh and Vancouver is they are not playing pure hockey. They are playing what I refer to as "disgusting" hockey. They can't keep their mouths shut on the ice. They can't stop yapping or pushing or whacking after the whistle. They can't stop whining to the refs or diving around on the ice.
It isn't a physical battle. It isn't like Philly is some goon squad on the ice. Not even close to it. It is exactly like the war of words in the media well before this series. It is why guys like Tortarella or Berube or Cherry will say things about that Pittsburgh team. It is the same things we say about the Vancouver team.
In all the years I went to the old Winnipeg arena to watch the Oilers play the Jets, I never once saw Gretzky or Kurri do the kinds of things Crosby and Malkin do. I never saw them scrum up after the whistle and mouth off to the likes of Boschmen or Kyte. It never happened.
You play the game like a bunch of ******* no respect clowns and this is what happens teams lose all respect for you and they will beat you up for it.
You don't need the thuggery for an excellent game. Quick example. 1975 NYE game between Red Army and Montreal Canadiens ended in a 3-3 draw, was a showcase of the best hockey played on the planet, and a game the fans have cherished forever.
Conversely the Flyers game with Red Army a week later was nothing like that and was a snapshot of the Flyers goonery and unwillingness to just play the game.
How a longtime fan feels about todays issues is probably established by which side of the fence they were on in those long ago contests.
If you preferred the Flyers game, and win at any cost, then you support the notion that its OK just to take out the other teams stars purposely. Which is exactly what Bobby Clarke did in the Summit series.
I coud also add that most European fans (at least the ones of us who belong to the somewhat older generation) grew up with the Swedish league + national team, i.e. WC, Olympics, etc. Nowadays when the NHL is covered more in Europe, and more players actually come "the other way" (from NA to Europe) to play it has changed a bit, but I for one grew up with, to a certain extent, another kind of hockey. And I still fell in love with the game. I love the extra spice that the physicality brings in the NA but there's a limit to everything. For me the game has edging closer to that line the last couple of seasons and the PHI-PIT game was definitely way over that line.
You see in your mind you think one team is playing "pure" hockey and one team is playing "savage" hockey.
The problem with teams like Pittsburgh and Vancouver is they are not playing pure hockey. They are playing what I refer to as "disgusting" hockey. They can't keep their mouths shut on the ice. They can't stop yapping or pushing or whacking after the whistle. They can't stop whining to the refs or diving around on the ice.
It isn't a physical battle. It isn't like Philly is some goon squad on the ice. Not even close to it. It is exactly like the war of words in the media well before this series. It is why guys like Tortarella or Berube or Cherry will say things about that Pittsburgh team. It is the same things we say about the Vancouver team.
In all the years I went to the old Winnipeg arena to watch the Oilers play the Jets, I never once saw Gretzky or Kurri do the kinds of things Crosby and Malkin do. I never saw them scrum up after the whistle and mouth off to the likes of Boschmen or Kyte. It never happened.
You play the game like a bunch of ******* no respect clowns and this is what happens teams lose all respect for you and they will beat you up for it.
Oiler's are not even close to competing in this type of atmosphere in every series....I am fairly certain that our entire team would be listed as "Full Body Injury" by game 2
Somehow Hemsky and Whitney would stay healthy....
But yeah, this has looked like bush league hockey so far.... but damn it has been exciting. They really do need to call more penalties.
My responses are biased by seeing what the Philly blueprint to the game has done to the league before. Thats my bias. I see this Flyer team invoking absolutely the same thing. Mayhem on ice. If you want to look at that further ask yourself how many times its the Flyers being involved in this type of game regardless of opponent.What needs to stop is the NHL not only granting licence to idiots like Rinaldi and Hartnel, but making similar guys like Marchand stars of this new NHL game. A game that involves being able to punch people in the face repeatedly with refs looking the other way. Again its the stuff between the whistles that is harder for a player to ignore. Crosby REACTED today which I've stated all along. But he reacted to playing a despised team in a playoff series that is bringing this particular brand of game to the NHL.
How do you refuse to get involved when you get mugged, grabbed, punched between whistles which has often happened to Crosby. He's responding in kind. I see sheer frustration. Should he be doing that? No. Is it effective? no. But is he bent uncharacteristically out of shape over frustrating circumstances regarding injuries from NHL violence the last couple years. Yeah, I'd say definitely. Crosbys said it too. He's asked that the league take a closer look at the mayhem and attempts to injure that its allowing.
If you want to play culprit here ask yourself whether Crosby, or say players like Rinaldi or Hartnel are the ones invoking this standard of mayhem on the game. I'd say Hartnels worn it like a badge his whole career. Proudly. He's become a circus clown act.
Wasn't that long ago that people were fuming at hartnel on this very board. Because he brings his **** show to every opponent in the league. Like Marchand does.
Really? I think you might want to ask John Torterella and the Rangers about that. Seems to me last time they played the Penguins, he lambasted their gutless tactics.
bold 2 - so punching in the face is wrong but punching someone in the back of the head while he is being held by a linesman is ok (crosby has done this twice)
bold 3 - everything that happened to crosby today happened because he started it. he took two unnecessary and vicious hacks at Brysgalov, then he started running is mouth and was confronted, and when it finally looked like it was dying down, he started it again by knocking Voracek's glove away.
Bold 4 - there are huge differences between crosby and hartnell/marchand/Rinaldo. crosby acts like a punk and expects no one to retaliate to his crap, where marchand know he will have to answer for his actions and does that. last years playoffs is a perfect example, he hits sedin and is ready for a fight to who ever will challange. Hartnell will fight when he has to and so will rinaldo. they defend themselves, Crosby doesn't. today he was as much of a rat player as Max Lapierre
take off your crosby glasses and look at this realistically. Pittsburgh head hunted today. they went after their stars, and philly did not go out of their way to go out and hunt crosby, they reacted to his childish games on the ice today, and as you can see, in both fights no one actually punched crosby in the head. he is very lucky as his antics today caused two played to get tossed, including their best defenceman.
I agree, The Crosby glasses have to come off. A lot of people lost a lot of respect for him today for his shenanigans. It is a Captains duty to rally his team and not put his team down. But Crosby did that multiple times in the game, and Philly has done an effective job of getting under the skin of the Pens without going over.
bold 2 - so punching in the face is wrong but punching someone in the back of the head while he is being held by a linesman is ok (crosby has done this twice)
bold 3 - everything that happened to crosby today happened because he started it. he took two unnecessary and vicious hacks at Brysgalov, then he started running is mouth and was confronted, and when it finally looked like it was dying down, he started it again by knocking Voracek's glove away.
Bold 4 - there are huge differences between crosby and hartnell/marchand/Rinaldo. crosby acts like a punk and expects no one to retaliate to his crap, where marchand know he will have to answer for his actions and does that. last years playoffs is a perfect example, he hits sedin and is ready for a fight to who ever will challange. Hartnell will fight when he has to and so will rinaldo. they defend themselves, Crosby doesn't. today he was as much of a rat player as Max Lapierre
take off your crosby glasses and look at this realistically. Pittsburgh head hunted today. they went after their stars, and philly did not go out of their way to go out and hunt crosby, they reacted to his childish games on the ice today, and as you can see, in both fights no one actually punched crosby in the head. he is very lucky as his antics today caused two played to get tossed, including their best defenceman.
Meh, I'd encourage you to take off your Crosby hate glasses. Everything Crosby has doled out recently, he's endured tenfold over the course of his career. The Pens have been more culprit than victim in this series, but the Flyers are far from saints, which is fine.
What I see with Crosby is a frustrated player who is trying to do anything to spark his guys to win. He'll go in the trenches, he'll fight and he'll yap if he thinks it will give his team an edge. It backfired on Sunday, but Crosby is a smart guy and he's got a couple days to digest his anger and come up with a proper gameplan. I would think the Pens will do everything to avoid the antics in Game 4 and just straight up outplay their oppenent.
And don't compare Sid to Lapierre - that just shows how blindingly biased you are. Sid engages in antics from time to time, but he doesn't do it every game. He does it when he thinks it will give him an edge. And he does fight - more than he should for a player of his calibre.
Anyway, the Flyers deserve to be where they are in this series, but that has more to do with the poor play of Fleury than it does with anything Crosby is or isn't doing.
I'm hoping that the complementary pieces that we put around our core can be the size / grit we need to compete in series like this. I don't want to squander talent just for the sake of getting bigger.
Meh, I'd encourage you to take off your Crosby hate glasses. Everything Crosby has doled out recently, he's endured tenfold over the course of his career. The Pens have been more culprit than victim in this series, but the Flyers are far from saints, which is fine.
What I see with Crosby is a frustrated player who is trying to do anything to spark his guys to win. He'll go in the trenches, he'll fight and he'll yap if he thinks it will give his team an edge. It backfired on Sunday, but Crosby is a smart guy and he's got a couple days to digest his anger and come up with a proper gameplan. I would think the Pens will do everything to avoid the antics in Game 4 and just straight up outplay their oppenent.
And don't compare Sid to Lapierre - that just shows how blindingly biased you are. Sid engages in antics from time to time, but he doesn't do it every game. He does it when he thinks it will give him an edge. And he does fight - more than he should for a player of his calibre.
Anyway, the Flyers deserve to be where they are in this series, but that has more to do with the poor play of Fleury than it does with anything Crosby is or isn't doing.
there is a reason i only said that in one game he was as much of a rat as lapierre. i do ask when was the last time you saw crosby engage in an actual fight, and not a wrestling match (as seen on sunday) or jumping a guy off the faceoff?
in fact i was a crosby fan before i saw his antics on saturday.
one more way i will counter your argument, is by asking, why are other superstar player not just as fed up as crosby. i never see stamkos going out of his way to start scrums, and that can be said for others like Brad Richards, Gaborik, St. Louis, Spezza, Tavares or Sedin.
As I watch the intensity and competitiveness of this years playoffs, it occurs to me just how far away from being contenders this Oiler team is. I hope they are all watching and learning what it means to be a tough, determined playoff team.
That said, I am actually appalled at the mindless thuggery taking place in almost every game. Intensity and intimidation is one thing, idiocy and lack of respect is quite another.
there is a reason i only said that in one game he was as much of a rat as lapierre. i do ask when was the last time you saw crosby engage in an actual fight, and not a wrestling match (as seen on sunday) or jumping a guy off the faceoff?
He doesn't "jump a guy off the faceoff" here. This is a mutual fight, or as you would call it "an actual fight":
And this is a fight he engages after he is slough footed (and when his team is down 2-1 and Malkin's outta the lineup - obviously trying to inject life into his squad):
He doesn't fight that much, but why should he. He needs to be selective about when he does it and it's usually when the team needs a boost.
in fact i was a crosby fan before i saw his antics on saturday.
If you're willing to stop being a fan of a Crosby because of "his antics" on the weekend (it was Sunday actually), go right ahead. I didn't see anything there that made me think he was the punk you do - but keep hating.
one more way i will counter your argument, is by asking, why are other superstar player not just as fed up as crosby. i never see stamkos going out of his way to start scrums, and that can be said for others like Brad Richards, Gaborik, St. Louis, Spezza, Tavares or Sedin.
Plenty of superstars get just as frustrated as Crosby. Many of them disappear completely when they do (Sedins, for example). If you don't think other superstars start scrums, hit and fight when they can't score, I'd strongly urge you to watch more hockey ... a lot more hockey.
