I'm a big believer in never having "untouchable" players. If you have a player who you claim is "too good to trade", then chances are you could get something massive in return for him.
I also believe that following something massively embarrassing (such as a first round sweep), it is necessary for management to retool and shake things up. Big losses can be poisonous, and they can fester into something completely unwanted (see: Capitals 2010-2012). Even if you're a team that has won before, you can not continue the status quo after being embarrassed.
Things like that when left unfixed just get worse over time.
If the Pens are out, nothing is off limits if I'm Shero. I'd listen to offers on anyone, even Sid. Obviously I would never seriously consider trading Crosby, but you need the team and the fans to understand that the culture and the attitude of this Penguins team is unacceptable.
If I were Shero, I'd seriously listen to offers on Malkin. Chances are, the Pens could land an absolutely monumental offer for him, and it would allow the team to retool and still be contenders. I personally dont like the dynamic of building around 2 generational talents with a bunch of role players, but that's the fate that was handed to them in the 2004 and 2005 draft lotteries.
I'd trade Malkin for a package of a top flight winger, a blue chip NHL ready defender, and a high first round pick. Or I guess a top flight franchise defender, a blue chip NHL ready winger, and a high first round pick. It would completely redefine the team, and, imo, build a much more reliable core that isnt so dependent on its top heavy talent.
I dont even know what teams could put together such a package. Maybe Bobby Ryan+Cam Fowler+1st? Kessel+Schenn+1st? I really have no clue. All I know is that something would have to be done. Fans and players alike need to know that being embarrassed is unacceptable in Pittsburgh.
All this coming from a Flyers fan who's team dished out Richards and Carter after being swept by the Bruins-- only a year after making a SCF run. Sometimes you need to retool, even if it seems like a bad idea now, you have to have the foresight to envision potentially bigger problems in the future.
Completely disagree. Look at how scary the Pens were this year. Yea, they've kinda fallen apart. But Crosby-Malkin up the middle is just unfair. If both of them are healthy and playing well, and are supplemented with good goaltending, defense and some depth, they are a contender for the cup.
If you are blessed with two generational players on one team, you don't trade one of them away. Especially not when they are in their prime. Or when they've already shown you that they can succeed together (cup in 09). Or that there are no ego problems between the two.
Are you being serious? He could be used as Staal is but would be better in every way. I'm not saying there's any point in revisiting draft decisions but it's insane to dismiss the discussion by saying "this player we skipped on who's now clearly better in every way than the player we chose instead just wouldn't fit the team... it's a chemistry thing, even though that player brings the same skill set and more."
Completely disagree. Look at how scary the Pens were this year. Yea, they've kinda fallen apart. But Crosby-Malkin up the middle is just unfair. If both of them are healthy and playing well, and are supplemented with good goaltending, defense and some depth, they are a contender for the cup.
How so? Clearly teams in the past have shown that it is not impossible to shut enough of them down in a 7 game series to win it. They're a great team, but I think they can still be great if Geno is moved. If they landed a 35+ goal scoring winger + another major piece in a trade, I just think it could be easily justified as it makes the team more reliable.
Obviously the team can win with the lineup it has now, but if the team is embarrassed, I believe that a shakeup is in order. Is Malkin a top 3 player in the league? Absolutely. What does that mean exactly? It means he can also bring a massive return in a trade.
Just because you trade a player like Malkin doesnt mean he's gone and a black hole takes his place. You actually get something in return. Think Richards/Carter but bigger. A lot bigger.
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If you are blessed with two generational players on one team, you don't trade one of them away. Especially not when they are in their prime. Or when they've already shown you that they can succeed together (cup in 09). Or that there are no ego problems between the two.
Why not? If it stops working, you fix it.
Having two generational players is not a guaranteed formula for success. You can still rebuild and come back just as strong and quite possibly, even stronger.
After you get swept in the first round, you cant sit on your hands. Something needs to get done, imo. That doesnt mean you have to trade 71, it just means it cant be off the table if the return is good enough.
People need to realize that trading a star player means you are receiving value in return. It's certainly a risk, but it doesnt mean the team will be worse...far from it, actually.
How so? Clearly teams in the past have shown that it is not impossible to shut enough of them down in a 7 game series to win it. They're a great team, but I think they can still be great if Geno is moved.
Yes, they can be shut down. Every player in the league can be shut down, I think we can agree on that. But my argument is that there are no 2 players that will give you a better chance of performing than Malkin/Crosby (Not bringing up Stamkos/Giroux/Sedin/Ovi arguments, but you get what I'm saying). These are 100+pt guys. If you can't bet on them getting it done, then there's no one.
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7
If they landed a 35+ goal scoring winger + another major piece in a trade, I just think it could be easily justified as it makes the team more reliable.
I disagree. Give Malkin a couple of 20 goal scorers and he'll make them 30 goal scorers. He improves the players around him. Can't say the same for the guy you would be getting back.
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7
Obviously the team can win with the lineup it has now, but if the team is embarrassed, I believe that a shakeup is in order. Is Malkin a top 3 player in the league? Absolutely. What does that mean exactly? It means he can also bring a massive return in a trade. Just because you trade a player like Malkin doesnt mean he's gone and a black hole takes his place. You actually get something in return. Think Richards/Carter but bigger. A lot bigger.
I agree that a shakeup can be in order. But I just don't see profit in trading Malkin. I think there is no way you get equal or better value coming back. You would need severe overpayment. Pens won't trade Malkin for an elite player + blue chip prospect + pick. It would have to be 2 elite players, and 2 blue chip prospects. Or 2 elite players + blue chip prospect + top 5 pick. Pens could throw some 2nd round picks or something to balance a bit, but you get the idea. No way any team would do it. That's why I think you wouldn't get fair value.
Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury, Letang, and Neal are going nowhere...everyone else is up for grabs really...
Yes, but after 2012-13 Crosby, Staal will be UFAs and I think Penguins will see some sort of shakeup like it or not. I believe Penguins window to win Stanley is closing.
Staal is the most likely guy to go. Why would you wanna play #3 center when you could be on other teams #2 center. I doubt he wants to be behind Malkin and Crosby his whole career.
Staal is the most likely guy to go. Why would you wanna play #3 center when you could be on other teams #2 center. I doubt he wants to be behind Malkin and Crosby his whole career.
It will be interesting to see if Staal decided to take an offer somewhere else to get a bigger role on another team. Sort of sucks for the Penguins if he does because "Power Forwards" generally hit there stride in their mid to late 20s
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Originally Posted by Colorado Avalanche
Yes, but after 2012-13 Crosby, Staal will be UFAs and I think Penguins will see some sort of shakeup like it or not. I believe Penguins window to win Stanley is closing.
As long as Malkin and Crosby are healthy they have a solid core for the next 8-10 years. It's just a case depending on who else they get to fill out the roster how well they do in any given season
Trade Orpik/Martin and see what you can get. The offense is amazing, you probably just need one physical player for the bottom 6. The defense is the problem. A Huge problem. Despres is hopefully able to step to a regular role next season.
Yes, but after 2012-13 Crosby, Staal will be UFAs and I think Penguins will see some sort of shakeup like it or not. I believe Penguins window to win Stanley is closing.
Imagine the threads that will pop up if Crosby goes to open market as a free agency, the whole board would crash. Given his relationship with Mario I doubt he even considers it though. Crosby's likely not going anywhere.
Staal should leave as a UFA for the sake of his own career. He can take on a larger role elsewhere. He could probably even play with one of his brothers if he was so inclined.
With Crosby as a UFA next year, you've gotta wonder if the Pens don't make a move with him. They've gotta do something. How do you afford to keep Malkin and Crosby together? It'd be one thing if the Pens were dominant with those two. But they clearly are not. So you need to look at major changes. Initiating them makes more sense than reacting to them, too.
Staal is the most likely guy to go. Why would you wanna play #3 center when you could be on other teams #2 center. I doubt he wants to be behind Malkin and Crosby his whole career.
and yet he gets more minutes in Pittsburgh than almost any other center in the league.
That's not almost any other 3rd line center, that's almost any other center period.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the Pens did go out early, can't they only trade with other teams that are out of the playoffs?
And isn't the stupidest thing in the world to make a rash, panic move? Why not wait and think it out for a couple weeks(Which would give the added bonus of even more potential trading partners as other teams begin to be knocked out of the second round)
The Penguins played terrible first round; these things happen. There is no reason to dismantle the core.
Crosby and Malkin won't be traded for obvious reasons.
Fleury won't be traded because the Penguins have no other goaltender that is any good.
Letang just signed an extension so he won't be traded.
With Crosby as a UFA next year, you've gotta wonder if the Pens don't make a move with him. They've gotta do something. How do you afford to keep Malkin and Crosby together? It'd be one thing if the Pens were dominant with those two. But they clearly are not. So you need to look at major changes. Initiating them makes more sense than reacting to them, too.
No, you don't have to wonder at all. Crosby won't be traded for the most obvious of reasons.
The Pens might be handcuffed. They won't trade Malkin, Crosby, Staal, Neal, Letang, Fleury. NO ONE (unless they have a mental issue) will take Martin... Other than that, there aren't many tradeable pieces... by that I mean anyone they trade won't really yield a huge return. I wonder what he could be talking about. I honestly think Bylsma would be going NOWHERE. He's my favorite coach in the NHL.
They are drafting 5th and they might get Grigorenko or Galchenyuk who will develop into potential star number 1 Cs. They don't need staal
Or they might not? Might GET one of them. They MIGHT develop. Its not a far stretch to think something doesnt go right and the Leafs end up with less of player then Staal this draft.
Letang is worth a fortune, he has a good cap hit and is already one of the best two-way D men in the game, he's still young and has a ring already. The Pens could get a killing for him.
