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Old
04-17-2012, 08:57 AM
  #101
Blind Gardien
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
Toughness is not new to this sport. I'm not saying that our main asset should be "cheap and nasty" but it is always good to have some of it during the playoffs.
Well, I think we're going to need some of it to survive the next little while, anyway. And the good thing is it is always more readily available than the high end skill we've lacked too.

I haven't really been on the toughness bandwagon in general in recent years, but I can see that it's a good area to prioritize in our off-season roster tuning moves. Like when I pencil guys like Prust and O'Brien into depth spots as UFA targets. (I don't actually think we get Prust, but let him be an avatar for the kind of tough player who can play at least a bit who I'd rather add than the Staubitz brand).

I wouldn't go overhauling the roster entirely to try to put toughness everywhere in the lineup... we have some good players I'd want to keep who maybe aren't so much that kind of player, and most of our smaller guys (DD, Pleks, Gionta) are good in their roles and are at least fairly feisty.

But since we have ample openings at bottom-6 forward and for some extra D already, it's well worth looking at the existing openings and filling them according to the NHL's style-du-jour.

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Old
04-17-2012, 09:32 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post

There seems to be many testosterone-addled teenagers here that gravitate to goonery for its encapsulation of irrational jingoism, probably because they are cognitively incapable of appreciating the finer points of the game.
I bet you have never played the game at any level. You probably idolize Crosby, (speaking of ******** and 'goonery'.) What he has resorted to is pathetic , all his fanboys are crying because Sid can't handle being hit.

If the Pens were up 3-0 in the series, honest to god there wouldn't be half of the discussion about this 'goonery' , because people only care when it affects their team.

Oh, and 'jingoism'? Really? A little over-the-top on that one, aren't ya?
People that love physical hockey must be teenagers, but the highly sophisticated fans (such as yourself) appreciate the 'finer things'.. pretty refined sports fan we are dealing with? Here's to you.



Get over yourself.

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04-17-2012, 09:33 AM
  #103
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One thing I can't help but notice is that "taking the body" has been almost entirely replaced by "taking the head." Every hit that can be is aimed high, elbows are now UFC-style forearm smashes to the head. The blatant cheap shots and attempts to injure are more numerous and blatant than they have been in decades.

To me, I see the image of Colin Campbell's kid punching Spacek in the face with his elbow pad again and again after Spacek was down and out. he escaped without so much as a fine, IIRC. Since then, the bigger team always has the option to simply beat the crap out of the other team. Marchand can punch Sedin in the face after the whistle again and again with no fear of reprisal from the league or from a team that doesn't have Chara and Lucic.

The cheapest shots of the last two years- Chara on Pax, Lucic on Miller, Weber on Zetterberg as three examples- the images that are just absolutely clearly not hockey plays, all escape without suspension. Meanwhile the longest suspension in NHL playoff history went to a guy who was maybe one second late in making an otherwise classic Scott Stevens style open ice hit on a guy with his head down. IMO there have been a dozen cheaper shots in the first half of the first round this year, none of which have resulted in anything like the punishment. I hope the NHL is happy with their ratings, because to me they've turned the league into a bush league freak show with no real rules at all anymore. Anything might not be called in this playoffs, from running a goalie to targeting the head to knee on knee, anything.

Love the playoff intensity and for sure am seeing some great hockey, but frankly the refereeing and the head office discipline aren't even a bad joke. They're ****ed up.

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Old
04-17-2012, 09:37 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
The Habs wouldn't be implicated in such series.
Just like in Detroit, or Boston, or Florida, those series have not been as physical.
Have you even watched the other series? The Boston series has been nasty, and the Detroit series is getting there after the Weber hit. The fact is , Detroit can't match Nashville in the physical department and it has been the knock on them all year. You can't 'kill them with kindness' in the post season, looks like Detroit and Vancouver are going to learn this again.

The Florida/Devils series is dreadful to watch, while the other matchups are having their highest ratings ever on NBC lol, up 50%.

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04-17-2012, 09:46 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
Mr. Cherry, I just watched your segment on HNIC where you show-cased rockem sockem from some Nordiques-Habs and Bruins-Habs games from the 70s and 80s. Mr. Cherry, you are a dinosaur.


I remember the Quebec and Montreal game that was shown........Man, the dinosaur age was a great age.

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Old
04-17-2012, 09:46 AM
  #106
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There are different "branches" of toughness. It's not just fighters. It's also about having guys like Tomas Holmstrom or Dino Cicerelli, guys who'll battle for every inch in front of the net. It's also about having guys who are willing to lay bodychecks and then win board battles(which just about every player is doing once the playoffs start). Being countercultural and trying to win a Cup without these elements will result in a trip to the golf course well before reaching the Cup Finals.

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Old
04-17-2012, 09:57 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Yea the size and toughness of our d core is a problem.


People mentioned the 93 team, they weren't goons but they were tough

Mike Keane
John LeClair
Lyle Odelin
Kurk Muller


compared to

Pleks
Gionta
Dashernais
Weber
Kaberle


We don't need goons but we need more players who can play tough. You want the James Neal's of your team able to rough it up and not be pushed around. You can't rely on the 3rd liners who aren't out there as often to toughen up your team.

It starts with the first line.
Take a look at the complete list of players listed on the 93 Stanley Cup Winning Team. Or just look at who jumps on the ice at the end of the last game vs LA. You'll noticed that Todd Ewen and Mario Roberge were among those players. Roberge and Ewen didn't play much in the playoffs. Out of 20 games, 3 and 1 respectively. They would have dressed for more games if their presence was required.
People forget how tough the Habs were when they won the cup.
Ewen, Roberge, Odelein, Ramage, Keane, Muller, LeClair, Haller.
86 team.
Kordic, Nilan, Maley, Robinson, Ludwig, McPhee, Green, Walter, Tremblay, Richer, Chelios, Skrudland, Momesso, Rooney, Lemieux.

2012 team before Staubitz came in and White came back from injury.
Moen, Gill, Subban, Bourque, Blunden. Pretty weak.

Those previous teams could play hockey and could defend themselves. The present edition still hits people but when the scrums start, there just isn't enough muscle there for the smaller guys to feel safe. Why aren't Briere and Giroux invisible in a rough playoff series. Because they feel safe with their teamates backing them up. Did Plekanec feel safe with Gionta and Cammalleri backing him up or a Leblanc and a disinterested Bourque. One guy in the lineup is not enough. When Malone attacked Emelin, Staubitz was on the bench and there was no way for him to retaliate. We don't need goons on every line, we need a little toughness peppered throughout the lineup. Not every defenseman has to be a puck carrier.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:00 AM
  #108
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Like it or not, the playoffs are a different beast and the games are called differently. We saw it last season with the pathetic display from Brad Marchand and the refs not doing anything about it. That's part of the reason why having smurf teams is not a good idea if you want to win a cup.

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04-17-2012, 10:04 AM
  #109
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It's gone too far. It makes the sports look stupid and brainless.

These players are putting there lives on the line right now.

I really think crosby vs giroux is a shame. We all feared Crosby's career was one hit away from retiring, and now we're suppose to cheer to the fact he fights? what the hell.

Wanting to make the big hit to look tough is stupid. Right now they are not playing hockey, they are playing the game of who has the less brain and the biggest testicule.

People who support those hits have not understood a single thing about the concussion issues.

Take that ****ing aggressivity out of your chest by skating faster, scoring goals, fighting along the boards, not by killing somebody. Are these guys even aware a single blow to the head can be fatal? a punch or a elbow hit and boom, you regret your pride made you do insane things (bertuzzi anyone). I can't even believe this dude can still wear skates without feeling ashamed.

I support toughness and combativity along the boards, not brainless behavior driven by madness and twisted pride. If i wanna see a guy take a smackdown on someone and cheer for it along 20 000 people, I'm gonna watch wwe.

And I freaking love hockey.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:05 AM
  #110
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Here's a good read on how fighting in the playoffs is generally much rarer than in the regular season and how this year's playoffs are ridiculously atypical: http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/0...he-postseason/

Usually, the playoffs are different... in that fighting occurs much less frequently, which says a lot about how valuable it is in crunch time. What we're seeing this year is a complete freakshow.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:12 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
One thing I can't help but notice is that "taking the body" has been almost entirely replaced by "taking the head." Every hit that can be is aimed high, elbows are now UFC-style forearm smashes to the head. The blatant cheap shots and attempts to injure are more numerous and blatant than they have been in decades.

To me, I see the image of Colin Campbell's kid punching Spacek in the face with his elbow pad again and again after Spacek was down and out. he escaped without so much as a fine, IIRC. Since then, the bigger team always has the option to simply beat the crap out of the other team. Marchand can punch Sedin in the face after the whistle again and again with no fear of reprisal from the league or from a team that doesn't have Chara and Lucic.

The cheapest shots of the last two years- Chara on Pax, Lucic on Miller, Weber on Zetterberg as three examples- the images that are just absolutely clearly not hockey plays, all escape without suspension. Meanwhile the longest suspension in NHL playoff history went to a guy who was maybe one second late in making an otherwise classic Scott Stevens style open ice hit on a guy with his head down. IMO there have been a dozen cheaper shots in the first half of the first round this year, none of which have resulted in anything like the punishment. I hope the NHL is happy with their ratings, because to me they've turned the league into a bush league freak show with no real rules at all anymore. Anything might not be called in this playoffs, from running a goalie to targeting the head to knee on knee, anything.

Love the playoff intensity and for sure am seeing some great hockey, but frankly the refereeing and the head office discipline aren't even a bad joke. They're ****ed up.
The NHL's standards for discipline are arbitrary and therefore problematic. These are the factors that should be considered.

1. Blow to the head. Automatic minimum 1 game suspension whether player is at fault or not. No exceptions. That includes if the player getting hit ducks into the hit. There is a minimum 1 game suspension to begin with.

2 Unless the blow to the head comes as a result of the player ducking into the hit, it's a minimum five game suspension. Accidental or not.

3. If it's deemed intentional then it's an automatic 10 game suspension regardless of how badly the player is hurt.

4. If the player hit gets hurt or suffers a concussion, penalties become more severe regardless of whether or not it is accidental.


The NHL has an innocent until proven guilty on intent policy in place. That's just the wrong way to go about doing things. It should be guilty to begin with and then you look at intent. If players know they'll get suspended by hitting players in the head, they'll be a lot more careful than they are right now.

Penalties have to be more severe and consistent. If they do it this way, there will be fewer injuries. Right now players aren't thinking that way because they know they can get away with it.

The Chara hit is exhibit A. I don't care if it's intentional or not, it's a five game minimum suspension (probably should've been more because of the severity of the damage.) Folks can argue whether it was intentional or not but the bottom line is that the player hit could've been killed on that play. It's at BEST a reckless play and at worst Chara knew exactly what he was doing. Players WILL take advantage of making these kinds of hits if they think they can get away with it. The league has to wake up.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:13 AM
  #112
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Having Staubitz helped "police" things, however in a perfect world i would prefer tough guys with skill, or at least some skill ( konopka etc)...some skilled players toughness goes unnoticed too, James Neal and Jamie Benn are good examples, having guys like lucic, simmonds are differences makers when it comes to having a tougher team, because when you need the skill/scoring its there, and they are able to play the top 6 roles with skill and a mean streak

when it comes down to it, i just want to see the habs win, i dont want to see hab games devolve into cheap shots and disrespect, if we are a tough team or a smurf team i could care less as long as win

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:14 AM
  #113
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That's not toughness. It's cheap dirty plays.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:20 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post

To me, I see the image of Colin Campbell's kid punching Spacek in the face with his elbow pad again and again after Spacek was down and out. he escaped without so much as a fine, IIRC. Since then, the bigger team always has the option to simply beat the crap out of the other team. Marchand can punch Sedin in the face after the whistle again and again with no fear of reprisal from the league or from a team that doesn't have Chara and Lucic.

I think it was pyatt and yes, absolutely bush league cheap. I also agree with you on the other examples of cheap plays. There's physical hockey and we've had lots of great hits and then there is this increasing rise in the cheapest of cheap moves. You think the players are getting the message about player safety and concussion? I don't. Hit, but make it clean. Even the bordeline ones are just that. But then you have the really stupid crap.

Can't wait for Campbell to get his ass handed to him by an actual fighter. LOL at him being interviewed last night and bringing up the league discipline. Daddy likesss.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:22 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The Chara hit is exhibit A. I don't care if it's intentional or not, it's a five game minimum suspension (probably should've been more because of the severity of the damage.) Folks can argue whether it was intentional or not but the bottom line is that the player hit could've been killed on that play. It's at BEST a reckless play and at worst Chara knew exactly what he was doing. Players WILL take advantage of making these kinds of hits if they think they can get away with it. The league has to wake up.
Uhh, did you not hear Cherry last night? Do you not know that the fact that Chara was too slow or incompetent to take a (would even be legal) swing at laich to try to knock the puck away was an indication that he's the cleanest and nicest player in the league, ergo there's no way the Pacioretty hit was intentional? Dude, get you facts straight.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:32 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Here's a good read on how fighting in the playoffs is generally much rarer than in the regular season and how this year's playoffs are ridiculously atypical: http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/0...he-postseason/

Usually, the playoffs are different... in that fighting occurs much less frequently, which says a lot about how valuable it is in crunch time. What we're seeing this year is a complete freakshow.
Fighting is only one aspect of toughness, though. Has anyone measured if there are more hits per game in the playoffs as opposed to the regular season?

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04-17-2012, 10:36 AM
  #117
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The thing I like with Ottawa's fighters (and I'm biased obviously since I cheer for them as well) is that you've got a guy like Neil who is a good fighter, but at the same time he's a good bottom 6 guy who can fill in on the top 6 and score some goals (game 2 vs. NYR after Alfie got injured is a good example)

Konopka's not a big offensive threat by any means but he's been good on the faceoffs and solid so far in the playoffs (although he did catch some flack in the regular season). He can also play shorthanded. Carkner had a rough season because of injuries but as I recall when he's 100% he is a decent bottom pairing defenseman.

I think the key is to have good fighters who have some skills outside of fighting, so that you're not just icing a lineup of 11 guys plus a fighter. Lots of games go by where no one fights, and even with fights, you've gotta play the 60 minutes of hockey. By all accounts guys like Nilan were also decent players although I was too young to really follow the Habs back then.

If Darche was a fighter he'd be perfect (since his offensive output is pretty similar to Neil's). Staubitz has seemed like a player who can at least keep pace with the game, although it's been a small sample size. He doesn't seem to have a ton of offensive upside, but I think he might be good down the stretch especially since the players seem to like him a lot.

Ryan White I could see being a really useful player (a la Neil) going forward because he plays with a lot of heart and seems to have untapped offensive potential to boot. He's really fast and he can play, already - and he's still young.

PS - I can't wait to see Emelin in the playoffs, on a semi related note.


Last edited by Valois: 04-17-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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04-17-2012, 10:45 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Beendair Donedat View Post
You guys that hate the toughness
A thread that starts with this line, says a lot about how little some folks understand the debate. Nobody "hates toughness" - if they did, they wouldn't be watching hockey games and posting on a hockey forum. It's a part of the game. The debate is (or should be), how much toughness contributes to winning games, whether it's over/underrated by the media, fans, certain teams, whether designated fighters can help improve a team's chances, etc. Whether someone actually enjoys watching physical battles shouldn't be at issue, this is hockey!

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:53 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Blame it on PK View Post
There are different "branches" of toughness. It's not just fighters. It's also about having guys like Tomas Holmstrom or Dino Cicerelli, guys who'll battle for every inch in front of the net. It's also about having guys who are willing to lay bodychecks and then win board battles(which just about every player is doing once the playoffs start). Being countercultural and trying to win a Cup without these elements will result in a trip to the golf course well before reaching the Cup Finals.
Gionta and Desharnais are guys that are tough in that sense. Both guys get knocked down or run over a lot but don't back down.

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04-17-2012, 11:02 AM
  #120
Beendair Donedat
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
The NHL's standards for discipline are arbitrary and therefore problematic. These are the factors that should be considered.

1. Blow to the head. Automatic minimum 1 game suspension whether player is at fault or not. No exceptions. That includes if the player getting hit ducks into the hit. There is a minimum 1 game suspension to begin with.

2 Unless the blow to the head comes as a result of the player ducking into the hit, it's a minimum five game suspension. Accidental or not.

3. If it's deemed intentional then it's an automatic 10 game suspension regardless of how badly the player is hurt.

4. If the player hit gets hurt or suffers a concussion, penalties become more severe regardless of whether or not it is accidental.


The NHL has an innocent until proven guilty on intent policy in place. That's just the wrong way to go about doing things. It should be guilty to begin with and then you look at intent. If players know they'll get suspended by hitting players in the head, they'll be a lot more careful than they are right now.

Penalties have to be more severe and consistent. If they do it this way, there will be fewer injuries. Right now players aren't thinking that way because they know they can get away with it.

The Chara hit is exhibit A. I don't care if it's intentional or not, it's a five game minimum suspension (probably should've been more because of the severity of the damage.) Folks can argue whether it was intentional or not but the bottom line is that the player hit could've been killed on that play. It's at BEST a reckless play and at worst Chara knew exactly what he was doing. Players WILL take advantage of making these kinds of hits if they think they can get away with it. The league has to wake up.
Thats the worst "solution" I've ever read. Go watch figure skating if you hate contact that much...

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04-17-2012, 11:11 AM
  #121
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Have you even watched the other series? The Boston series has been nasty, and the Detroit series is getting there after the Weber hit. The fact is , Detroit can't match Nashville in the physical department and it has been the knock on them all year. You can't 'kill them with kindness' in the post season, looks like Detroit and Vancouver are going to learn this again.

The Florida/Devils series is dreadful to watch, while the other matchups are having their highest ratings ever on NBC lol, up 50%.
How is Washington any more physically competent than Montreal?

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04-17-2012, 11:16 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Valois View Post
The thing I like with Ottawa's fighters (and I'm biased obviously since I cheer for them as well) is that you've got a guy like Neil who is a good fighter, but at the same time he's a good bottom 6 guy who can fill in on the top 6 and score some goals (game 2 vs. NYR after Alfie got injured is a good example)

Konopka's not a big offensive threat by any means but he's been good on the faceoffs and solid so far in the playoffs (although he did catch some flack in the regular season). He can also play shorthanded. Carkner had a rough season because of injuries but as I recall when he's 100% he is a decent bottom pairing defenseman.

I think the key is to have good fighters who have some skills outside of fighting, so that you're not just icing a lineup of 11 guys plus a fighter. Lots of games go by where no one fights, and even with fights, you've gotta play the 60 minutes of hockey. By all accounts guys like Nilan were also decent players although I was too young to really follow the Habs back then.

If Darche was a fighter he'd be perfect (since his offensive output is pretty similar to Neil's). Staubitz has seemed like a player who can at least keep pace with the game, although it's been a small sample size. He doesn't seem to have a ton of offensive upside, but I think he might be good down the stretch especially since the players seem to like him a lot.

Ryan White I could see being a really useful player (a la Neil) going forward because he plays with a lot of heart and seems to have untapped offensive potential to boot. He's really fast and he can play, already - and he's still young.

PS - I can't wait to see Emelin in the playoffs, on a semi related note.
I really like Zach Smith too, to add on to what you're saying. I wouldn't want as many 'plugs' as Ottawa has, but definitely guys like Smith and Neil are what great teams want on their bottom lines.

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04-17-2012, 11:16 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I bet you have never played the game at any level. You probably idolize Crosby, (speaking of ******** and 'goonery'.) What he has resorted to is pathetic , all his fanboys are crying because Sid can't handle being hit.

If the Pens were up 3-0 in the series, honest to god there wouldn't be half of the discussion about this 'goonery' , because people only care when it affects their team.

Oh, and 'jingoism'? Really? A little over-the-top on that one, aren't ya?
People that love physical hockey must be teenagers, but the highly sophisticated fans (such as yourself) appreciate the 'finer things'.. pretty refined sports fan we are dealing with? Here's to you.

Get over yourself.
I specifically wrote that the Habs don't need to stoop to goonery / thuggery to win. I used the '93 Cup win as an example because the Habs' designated goon, Todd Ewen played only 1 game in the playoffs - his services were not needed. Team toughness is important but "toughness" doesn't equate to thuggery.

As for my jingoism comment, just in this thread alone shows that there are fans that enjoy watching WWE-style-bench-clearing-brawl-goon hockey. I don't.

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04-17-2012, 11:19 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Have you even watched the other series? The Boston series has been nasty, and the Detroit series is getting there after the Weber hit. The fact is , Detroit can't match Nashville in the physical department and it has been the knock on them all year. You can't 'kill them with kindness' in the post season, looks like Detroit and Vancouver are going to learn this again.

The Florida/Devils series is dreadful to watch, while the other matchups are having their highest ratings ever on NBC lol, up 50%.
Detroit has been very successful with their brand of hockey.

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04-17-2012, 11:28 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
Have you even watched the other series? The Boston series has been nasty, and the Detroit series is getting there after the Weber hit. The fact is , Detroit can't match Nashville in the physical department and it has been the knock on them all year. You can't 'kill them with kindness' in the post season, looks like Detroit and Vancouver are going to learn this again.

The Florida/Devils series is dreadful to watch, while the other matchups are having their highest ratings ever on NBC lol, up 50%.
Yes, I have. I've watched every single game of these POs outside the first Boston-Washington and NJ-FLA games. Thank god for the PVR is all I can say.
So really, I know for a fact you're the one that likely hasn't watched most of the other games if you can't agree that those series have been less physical than others like NYR-OTT (although yesterday was fair dual), Stl-SJ or Phil-Pitts.
Weber head smash is overblown and physicality has nothing to do with why the Preds are up 2-1. It is a tight series, and the Preds are doing what everybody expected them to, play very strong defensive hockey. That with some truly solid goaltending.

Vancouver is missing a big piece in Sedin, and Kesler has been focusing on diving more than playing hockey. Richards has done a terrific job neutralizing him. You can say LA has used its size fairly well, but again, that series does not compare to the others that have been a lot more aggressive/goonish like.

The Boston series versus Washington has not been any nastier than ours versus them last year. Classic series intensity.

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