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Andrew Shaw's hit on Mike Smith(suspended 3 games)

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04-17-2012, 11:01 AM
  #101
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69.4 Contact Outside the Goal Crease - If an attacking player initiates any contact with a goalkeeper, other than incidental contact, while the goalkeeper is outside his goal crease, and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed.

A goalkeeper is not “fair game” just because he is outside the goal crease. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an attacking player makes unnecessary contact with the goalkeeper. However, incidental contact will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such unnecessary contact.


~~ Two elements here: 1) Initiating contact, 2) Unnecessary contact. Shaw did not initiate contact, the contact was incidental. Both Smith and Shaw were in the act of make a play on/or for the puck. The question then becomes was the contact unnecessary? Well in what sense? Shaw has the right to make a play for the puck, Smith is in the act of completing a pass and his stick is coming up... Shaw is not braced to intentionally hit Smith and flinches up as Smith's stick is coming through, as would any player. Now from the strong side view, yes I would agree it is shoulder to chin but when I look at the other views, particularly an overhead view it looks like helmet to helmet. There is no shoulder thrust into Smith, no elbow and Shaw is not bracing or focusing on Smith. Shaw has every right to make a play for the puck. It's an interesting situation which is complicated by the fact that Smith finished the game. Again, I would seriously question the leadership and medical staff of the Coyotes if they left him in knowing he was injured. Folks, anyone that's been concussed knows that it is very difficult to do basic motor skills tasks after having your brain slammed into your skull. There's headaches, nausea, vomiting, balance issues. He could not have gone on to have the game he did if he was concussed. Even if the argument was that it takes time for the symptons to develop. No way. He played 40+ mins after that of professional level hockey. His lateral movement was un-affected, his positioning was solid and he made some key saves requiring quick reflex. If it is a neck strain or something along those lines, yes perhaps he could play through that. A concussion, no and shame on the staff for not protecting their player if he was exhibiting concussion "like" symptons.

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04-17-2012, 11:03 AM
  #102
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Folks I'm here for discussion on the incident. Nothing more. I'm not a Coyotes or Hawks fan but I am a fan of the game. I don't like it when goalies get taken advantage of nor do I like it when the role is reversed. It puts a blackmark on the game. Look at the replays guys. The contact is head to head, un-intentional. Shaw can not be faulted for going after the puck, that's part of his job description. What is the alternative, make a free play zone in the trapezoid where a player can not enter so the goalie can freely play the puck? The call was wrong by the letter of the law... It is not charging. It was not charging, not elbowing.... The typical calls that lead to head contact calls. IF: Smith finished the game as he did, playing stellar I might add, does play Tues OR is on the bench will you concede that he embelished?
I will not concede he embellished. If he did, he continued the embellishment through the rest of the game and into yesterday. That seems excessive, and I don't buy it. Read through this thread: those who watched Smith in person say it was very clear that he wasn't himself, and as someone who watched on TV, I thought it was quite odd that he wasn't playing the puck with his usual verve. It was the first time all season that he looked rattled. That he made plenty of big saves the rest of the game speaks more to his spirit than his health.

As for Shaw, what should he have done? He shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. How often do opposing players run goalies behind the net? It doesn't happen often, even though even conservative goalies go back there a lot, because most players will stop and try to either play the pass or pokecheck the puck free, or at worst they'll squeeze past between the goalie and the net (and there was room for Shaw to do that, had he chosen).

I don't know if Shaw acted out of malice or negligence (though I have a guess, given the flopfest he put on in game one), but neither is particularly flattering.

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04-17-2012, 11:05 AM
  #103
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69.4 Contact Outside the Goal Crease - If an attacking player initiates any contact with a goalkeeper, other than incidental contact, while the goalkeeper is outside his goal crease, and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed.

A goalkeeper is not “fair game” just because he is outside the goal crease. The appropriate penalty should be assessed in every case where an attacking player makes unnecessary contact with the goalkeeper. However, incidental contact will be permitted when the goalkeeper is in the act of playing the puck outside his goal crease provided the attacking player has made a reasonable effort to avoid such unnecessary contact.


~~ Two elements here: 1) Initiating contact, 2) Unnecessary contact. Shaw did not initiate contact, the contact was incidental. Both Smith and Shaw were in the act of make a play on/or for the puck. The question then becomes was the contact unnecessary? Well in what sense? Shaw has the right to make a play for the puck, Smith is in the act of completing a pass and his stick is coming up... Shaw is not braced to intentionally hit Smith and flinches up as Smith's stick is coming through, as would any player. Now from the strong side view, yes I would agree it is shoulder to chin but when I look at the other views, particularly an overhead view it looks like helmet to helmet. There is no shoulder thrust into Smith, no elbow and Shaw is not bracing or focusing on Smith. Shaw has every right to make a play for the puck. It's an interesting situation which is complicated by the fact that Smith finished the game. Again, I would seriously question the leadership and medical staff of the Coyotes if they left him in knowing he was injured. Folks, anyone that's been concussed knows that it is very difficult to do basic motor skills tasks after having your brain slammed into your skull. There's headaches, nausea, vomiting, balance issues. He could not have gone on to have the game he did if he was concussed. Even if the argument was that it takes time for the symptons to develop. No way. He played 40+ mins after that of professional level hockey. His lateral movement was un-affected, his positioning was solid and he made some key saves requiring quick reflex. If it is a neck strain or something along those lines, yes perhaps he could play through that. A concussion, no and shame on the staff for not protecting their player if he was exhibiting concussion "like" symptons.
Unless you are a doctor I doubt your opinion on concussions and how soon symptoms set in is worth anything to be honest.

I honestly don't care though. If it means anything to you I will call on a public shaming to the Coyote medical crew.

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04-17-2012, 11:07 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by naurutger View Post
Yep, Smith just jammed his head into his shoulder; clearly dirty.



http://www.daily-chronicle.com/2012/...ame-3/aqj6rb9/
Good to see that at least Shaw can admit he hit Smith. Wish some of the fans of the other team could admit as much.

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04-17-2012, 11:08 AM
  #105
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I will not concede he embellished. If he did, he continued the embellishment through the rest of the game and into yesterday. That seems excessive, and I don't buy it. Read through this thread: those who watched Smith in person say it was very clear that he wasn't himself, and as someone who watched on TV, I thought it was quite odd that he wasn't playing the puck with his usual verve. It was the first time all season that he looked rattled. That he made plenty of big saves the rest of the game speaks more to his spirit than his health.

As for Shaw, what should he have done? He shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. How often do opposing players run goalies behind the net? It doesn't happen often, even though even conservative goalies go back there a lot, because most players will stop and try to either play the pass or pokecheck the puck free, or at worst they'll squeeze past between the goalie and the net (and there was room for Shaw to do that, had he chosen).

I don't know if Shaw acted out of malice or negligence (though I have a guess, given the flopfest he put on in game one), but neither is particularly flattering.
Players "accidentally" run into goalies all the time.

I remember Nick Kypreos finally admitted he ran Grant Fuhr in the playoffs finally about 10 years after he did it. He was getting ribbed by the other commentators before he finally fessed up that he knew exactly what he was doing when he fell on top of Fuhr.

I honestly can't believe we are still talking about this hit to be honest.

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04-17-2012, 11:09 AM
  #106
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To be honest, a suspension may actually help the Hawks. If Shaw plays tonight, he would have a bulls-eye painted on his back. It's not unthinkable that Kane and Toews would be targeted as well, even more than they already are. This series has been chippy at times, but it hasn't gotten truly nasty yet. That might change if the Coyotes feel like they have to take matters into their own hands.

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04-17-2012, 11:11 AM
  #107
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Unless you are a doctor I doubt your opinion on concussions and how soon symptoms set in is worth anything to be honest.

I honestly don't care though. If it means anything to you I will call on a public shaming to the Coyote medical crew.
Sorry I should have qualified the statement. I have coached many young elite hockey players, been involved in several years of coaching including running body checking clinics and have attended workshops on concussion in sport. I also have first hand experience on how debilitating concussions can be and the difficulty to come back from a concussion.

It is a major issue to allow your athlete to continue participating in a game when he is clearly injured. At any level of sport. You can't "fight through" a concussion with any amount of success. It's not a groin pull, it's swelling on the brain.

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04-17-2012, 11:11 AM
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To be honest, a suspension may actually help the Hawks. If Shaw plays tonight, he would have a bulls-eye painted on his back. It's not unthinkable that Kane and Toews would be targeted as well, even more than they already are. This series has been chippy at times, but it hasn't gotten truly nasty yet. That might change if the Coyotes feel like they have to take matters into their own hands.
If Smith is out then I suspect the game gets very dirty. Torres will be a heat seeking missle with very bad intentions. I'm actually quite fearful for several Coyote suspensions if that is the way the game turns.

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04-17-2012, 11:17 AM
  #109
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Sorry I should have qualified the statement. I have coached many young elite hockey players, been involved in several years of coaching including running body checking clinics and have attended workshops on concussion in sport. I also have first hand experience on how debilitating concussions can be and the difficulty to come back from a concussion.

It is a major issue to allow your athlete to continue participating in a game when he is clearly injured. At any level of sport. You can't "fight through" a concussion with any amount of success. It's not a groin pull, it's swelling on the brain.
It was Smith's call. I don't have a problem with that.

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04-17-2012, 11:18 AM
  #110
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Guys, the way to deal with this is for two willing combatants to drop the mitts right off the opening face off and get it over with. I'm talking two bonafide willing combatants. The answer is not to cheap shot both sides and make a mockery of the game. Personally these playoffs are turning into just that. ie)Crosby's display last game, heck the entire Philly/Pittsburgh series... Marchand's diving... The list goes on...

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04-17-2012, 11:19 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PokeCheck101 View Post
Sorry I should have qualified the statement. I have coached many young elite hockey players, been involved in several years of coaching including running body checking clinics and have attended workshops on concussion in sport. I also have first hand experience on how debilitating concussions can be and the difficulty to come back from a concussion.
For those not fluent in ********, I can translate:
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Sorry I should have qualified the statement. I have been in charge of my office keeper league three years running, I tried to give my rec league teammates a few pointers about body checking until the goalie punched me in the arm really hard, and I read up on concussions at WebMD before I came here to post. I also sometimes get headaches, so I totally know what concussed players are going through.

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04-17-2012, 11:22 AM
  #112
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I honestly can't believe we are still talking about this hit to be honest.

Didn't check the thread title before you clicked?

How can this not be being discussed, when our MVP is potentially concussed from an avoidable hit?

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04-17-2012, 11:23 AM
  #113
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In regards to our medical staff, if they knew he shouldn't play, then yeah, dude WTF. I like winning, but I also don't want to see Smith throw his career away (or the ability to live comfortably).

Lets also keep in mind that players lie about their health. Ian Laperriere did.

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04-17-2012, 11:23 AM
  #114
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Guys, the way to deal with this is for two willing combatants to drop the mitts right off the opening face off and get it over with. I'm talking two bonafide willing combatants. The answer is not to cheap shot both sides and make a mockery of the game. Personally these playoffs are turning into just that. ie)Crosby's display last game, heck the entire Philly/Pittsburgh series... Marchand's diving... The list goes on...
This I'll agree with, though one of those combatants needs to be Shaw. No one is asking for the game to get dirty. But its a reality that we have Torres on this team who is known for going to far, Doan tends to get stupid when he's emotional, Hanzal (if he can play) has lined guys up if he felt they wronged the team. Its simply a fact that since the Hawks crossed the line things could get crazy.

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04-17-2012, 11:25 AM
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If Smith is out then I suspect the game gets very dirty. Torres will be a heat seeking missle with very bad intentions. I'm actually quite fearful for several Coyote suspensions if that is the way the game turns.

Rougher and more physical... most likely, but I have never seen us as a dirty team.

Given the circumstances however.... things could change.

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04-17-2012, 11:27 AM
  #116
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It was Smith's call. I don't have a problem with that.
Highly paid medical staff would have recognized a serious issue. That's what they're on staff for. Just like they put him on injured reserve in December with a strained groin... If he said he was good to go it's not like he pulled the ole wool over the medical staff's eyes... You can't hide concussions. There's some basic tests they likely did on ice with him. If the symptons aren't immediate, they sure as heck are after you continue to exert yourself for 40 + more minutes.

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04-17-2012, 11:27 AM
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Im not ready to throw away the series and kill everyone. We are a pack! If they go down 3-1 after leaving Chicago, then let's do that. But not until then.

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04-17-2012, 11:28 AM
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But its a reality that we have Torres on this team who is known for going to far, Doan tends to get stupid when he's emotional, Hanzal (if he can play) has lined guys up if he felt they wronged the team. Its simply a fact that since the Hawks crossed the line things could get crazy.

Torres has shown incredible discipline to this point with the Coyotes. Doan? Well yeah.

RE: Hanzal (rumored to have had an appendectomy) there is nothing wrong, dirty or illegal about "lining guys up" and hitting 'em hard.

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04-17-2012, 11:32 AM
  #119
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Highly paid medical staff would have recognized a serious issue. That's what they're on staff for. Just like they put him on injured reserve in December with a strained groin... If he said he was good to go it's not like he pulled the ole wool over the medical staff's eyes... You can't hide concussions. There's some basic tests they likely did on ice with him. If the symptons aren't immediate, they sure as heck are after you continue to exert yourself for 40 + more minutes.
I've mentioned Ian Laperriere.

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04-17-2012, 11:33 AM
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[I]69.4 Contact Outside the Goal Crease - If an attacking player initiates any contact with a goalkeeper, other than incidental contact, while the goalkeeper is outside his goal crease, and a goal is scored, the goal will be disallowed.

~~ Two elements here: 1) Initiating contact, 2) Unnecessary contact. Shaw did not initiate contact, the contact was incidental. .
That is your opinion. In my opinion, it was a blatant attempt to run our goalie. Smith was already playing the puck, he was in the process of clearing it along the boards, Shaw intentionally saw a chance to run the goalie and took it. If you read his statement he says he's was focused on the puck, yeah ok, a professional doesn't know where he is on the ice relative to the goalie, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

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04-17-2012, 11:34 AM
  #121
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Torres has shown incredible discipline to this point with the Coyotes. Doan? Well yeah.

RE: Hanzal (rumored to have had an appendectomy) there is nothing wrong, dirty or illegal about "lining guys up" and hitting 'em hard.
Agree Torres has shown discipline, I'm just saying he has a reputation for a reason and its possible that since we're in crunch time he could slip up. As for Marty, I'm not calling him dirty in the slightest, I'm just thinking of when he has tried to line guys up before (for example Turris when we played Ottawa), if he actually connects with one those hits, all hell WILL break loose regardless how clean it is.

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04-17-2012, 11:34 AM
  #122
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Smitty must not be concussed - Leighton just cleared re-entry waivers. DM would have snagged him (at essentially no cost) if there were concerns Smith would be unavailable for an extended period.

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04-17-2012, 11:39 AM
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https://twitter.com/#!/cmorgancbsfoxaz

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cmorgancbsfoxaz Craig Morgan

Mike Smith, Marty Hanzal, Lauri Korpikoski all on the ice at #Coyotes morning skate at the United Center.

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04-17-2012, 11:41 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I will not concede he embellished. If he did, he continued the embellishment through the rest of the game and into yesterday. That seems excessive, and I don't buy it. Read through this thread: those who watched Smith in person say it was very clear that he wasn't himself, and as someone who watched on TV, I thought it was quite odd that he wasn't playing the puck with his usual verve. It was the first time all season that he looked rattled. That he made plenty of big saves the rest of the game speaks more to his spirit than his health.

As for Shaw, what should he have done? He shouldn't have been in that position in the first place. How often do opposing players run goalies behind the net? It doesn't happen often, even though even conservative goalies go back there a lot, because most players will stop and try to either play the pass or pokecheck the puck free, or at worst they'll squeeze past between the goalie and the net (and there was room for Shaw to do that, had he chosen).

I don't know if Shaw acted out of malice or negligence (though I have a guess, given the flopfest he put on in game one), but neither is particularly flattering.
I would suggest that Shaw acted out of neither but I will concede that he could have read the play better. Smith handles the puck around opposite side Shaw is coming in from. Bolland (#36) reads this and immediately goes cross ice because Shaw is the forechecker. Bolland knows already that Shaw's responsibility is to force the tender to make that rim up the weak side. This is obviously a set play for Chicago. Shaw took a very direct angle to the puck which is not un-common. Why? It provides Smith less time and space to make the play on the puck. Element of surprise. Even if he reverses the puck the defence is still penned in deep. That's the only way the play will work. If Shaw took a shallower angle, Smith would easily read that, reverse the puck sooner and you'd be out of your end. It's a tough call, split second decision but there's no way he thrust up, elbowed or intended for that contact. Was it un-necessary, well I go back to previous comments I made. That's debateable.

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04-17-2012, 11:47 AM
  #125
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