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Hall of Fame and MVP Awards..?

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04-12-2012, 10:06 PM
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WingsFan95
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Hall of Fame and MVP Awards..?

Just looking over the Conn Smythe and Hart recipients.

Perhaps it's a recent trend, but some of these guys don't look too great when it comes to hall of Fame credibility.

Brad Richards and Cam Ward are just two examples.

Obviously we don't have hindsight to judge them, but with past Smythe and Hart winners, you saw more all-star appearances, etc.

Now you have a guy like Ward and Richards who have only made one All-Star.

How heavily are these awards weighted?

Does Jean-Sebastien Giguere have any shot?

I just look at a guy like Bernie Parent and wonder.

If a guy like Richards gets hot and wins another Smythe? Are his career stats and lack of all-star selections glossed over because of those Smythe awards?

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04-12-2012, 10:14 PM
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Big Phil
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In my opinion if Richards wins another Smythe it elevates his career. There is a good case for putting Richards ahead of Lecavalier when it comes to HHOF chances which I happen to agree. I think Richards falls short, but he's also aging pretty well and might be able to add some impressive credentials to an already decent resume.

Giguere has no shot at all. Had some nice peaks and valleys, but was mediocre at best outside of a couple good playoff runs. A HHOF goalie would have done more than he had in his 30s.

Ward its hard to tell. He's pretty young, but then again he isn't anymore. I believe he is 27. Nothing in his career suggests HHOF yet and there have just been too many gaps in his career.

Other than that the Hart and Smythe winners are legitimate HHOFers since the lockout at least:

Smythe - Ward, Niedermayer, Zetterberg, Malkin, Toews, Thomas
Hart - Thornton, Crosby, Ovechkin (x2), Sedin, Perry, Malkin (assumed)

Toews looks to be on the right track and Perry I believe will have seasons closer to last year than this year, however he has his work cut out for him more than anyone on this list.

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04-12-2012, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Giguere has no shot at all. Had some nice peaks and valleys, but was mediocre at best outside of a couple good playoff runs. A HHOF goalie would have done more than he had in his 30s.
I was looking over his 2003 run again today. It has to be one of the all-time greatest. I believe he has a disgusting margin of saves a game still considering he only played 21 of a possible 28 games.

Then he was the guy between the pipes in 2007 when the Ducks finished the job.

If he had won a Vezina in any of those peak seasons, I think he'd have a strong argument. As is he does need to make a comeback but he's 35 and for a goalie that means 5-6 years still.

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04-12-2012, 10:41 PM
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I was looking over his 2003 run again today. It has to be one of the all-time greatest. I believe he has a disgusting margin of saves a game still considering he only played 21 of a possible 28 games.

Then he was the guy between the pipes in 2007 when the Ducks finished the job.

If he had won a Vezina in any of those peak seasons, I think he'd have a strong argument. As is he does need to make a comeback but he's 35 and for a goalie that means 5-6 years still.
He was amazing in 2003, and I think the stats don't even do him any justice despite being pretty darn good too. He was just doing the unthinkable. He swept Detroit and it was amazing to watch at that time.

The only knock on him is that he was never close to winning the Vezina and other than 2007 never had another good playoff run. His stint on Toronto showed me that he is a shadow of his former self and that might be the best scenario.

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04-13-2012, 05:19 AM
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The only knock on him is that he was never close to winning the Vezina
With his dehydration issues, he never had the chance to have a high-GP season - and his prime came in the era when GP/Wins/SOs routinely determined the Vezina. He's a goaltender that deserves more credit for his consistency in his prime, but he certainly didn't have the individual glamour seasons required for a HOF selection.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...er_by=save_pct

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04-13-2012, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Just looking over the Conn Smythe and Hart recipients.

Perhaps it's a recent trend, but some of these guys don't look too great when it comes to hall of Fame credibility.

Brad Richards and Cam Ward are just two examples.


Obviously we don't have hindsight to judge them, but with past Smythe and Hart winners, you saw more all-star appearances, etc.

Now you have a guy like Ward and Richards who have only made one All-Star.
I think what many people tend to forget is that they are actually comparing apples with oranges and thinking they are still comapring apples.

Take Richards time in the NHL from 01-12 regular season he is 30th in goals, 3rd in assists and 7th in points over that time.

Take out the players from Europe and he ranks 17th,2nd and 4th over that time.

Ward's time in the league the two all star selections have come from the US 3 times, Europe 4 times and from Canada 5 times.

In a fully integrated league recent stars (post 92ish or so) just don't look as dominant as they is more competition at the elite level than there was for past players.

Also with scoring down quite a bit overall from the high flying 80's the magic numbers of 50 goals and 100 points in a season are just that much ahrder to coem by and I think that some forget actually how difficult it is to score, for many reasons in the NHL today and one of them is not a lack of talent.

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04-13-2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
With his dehydration issues, he never had the chance to have a high-GP season - and his prime came in the era when GP/Wins/SOs routinely determined the Vezina. He's a goaltender that deserves more credit for his consistency in his prime, but he certainly didn't have the individual glamour seasons required for a HOF selection.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...er_by=save_pct
Never heard or knew about the dehydration issues. However, he played in some long, long playoff overtimes in 2003 and it didn't seem to be a factor. I don't think there was a season where he was particularly close to the Vezina

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04-13-2012, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Never heard or knew about the dehydration issues. However, he played in some long, long playoff overtimes in 2003 and it didn't seem to be a factor. I don't think there was a season where he was particularly close to the Vezina
They couldn't afford not to play him in the playoffs, and thankfully the series were short until the Finals. In the regular season, he was never a workhorse because he would lose 10-15 pounds each game (according to Doctor No, one time in the minors he lost 19 pounds and was hospitalized), so in 2008, it didn't matter that he had a better GAA, SPCT, Win Percentage, and the same amount of SOs as the Vezina winner - he couldn't play 77 games, so no one voted for him.

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04-14-2012, 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
They couldn't afford not to play him in the playoffs, and thankfully the series were short until the Finals. In the regular season, he was never a workhorse because he would lose 10-15 pounds each game (according to Doctor No, one time in the minors he lost 19 pounds and was hospitalized), so in 2008, it didn't matter that he had a better GAA, SPCT, Win Percentage, and the same amount of SOs as the Vezina winner - he couldn't play 77 games, so no one voted for him.
So what year do you believe he could have had a "projected" Vezina if he played more?

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04-14-2012, 06:16 AM
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So what year do you believe he could have had a "projected" Vezina if he played more?
Calling it a "projected Vezina" would be insinuating that I agree with the voters' tendencies to reward goaltenders with high GPs; I don't. Giguere and Leclaire were the best goaltenders of 2008. Leclaire's team was torn apart at the deadline, and his statistics suffered as a result. Giguere would have made a fine choice, because there was nothing that the Vezina winner did better - except NOT have an issue retaining water.

So if you're looking at Giguere as a goaltender that could (and IMO should) have a Vezina and two Conn Smythes, in addition to an excellent 2000-2008 prime, it's not a bad resume. Personally, I'm not really afraid to disagree with voters when I think they're wrong. Voting for the Hart or Vezina because of GP strikes me as being silly - and I've told you the same thing about Fuhr when he finished 2nd in Hart voting and 19th in save percentage.

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04-14-2012, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Calling it a "projected Vezina" would be insinuating that I agree with the voters' tendencies to reward goaltenders with high GPs; I don't. Giguere and Leclaire were the best goaltenders of 2008. Leclaire's team was torn apart at the deadline, and his statistics suffered as a result. Giguere would have made a fine choice, because there was nothing that the Vezina winner did better - except NOT have an issue retaining water.

So if you're looking at Giguere as a goaltender that could (and IMO should) have a Vezina and two Conn Smythes, in addition to an excellent 2000-2008 prime, it's not a bad resume. Personally, I'm not really afraid to disagree with voters when I think they're wrong. Voting for the Hart or Vezina because of GP strikes me as being silly - and I've told you the same thing about Fuhr when he finished 2nd in Hart voting and 19th in save percentage.
Well Giguere wasn't exactly helping his team win games sitting on the bench. It's pretty well known that it's harder to maintain a high level of play over more games as a goaltender; I don't know why Giguere should get a free pass because he had a medical condition preventing him from playing more often.

Nobody rushes to give the Hart to the forward who leads the league in points per game if he misses significant time; I don't know why it should be any different for goaltenders

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04-14-2012, 10:35 AM
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It's not like Giguerre pulled a Brian Elliot. He played 58 games in 07-08.

If you collectively at the 2002-03 season, Giguerre arguably equaled Brodeur's entire season.

Why don't we start judging players by their regular season and playoff collectively?

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04-14-2012, 10:42 AM
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It's not like Giguerre pulled a Brian Elliot. He played 58 games in 07-08.

If you collectively at the 2002-03 season, Giguerre arguably equaled Brodeur's entire season.

Why don't we start judging players by their regular season and playoff collectively?
Aguably according to who?

Giguere had a .922 save percentage; Brodeur had a .920. Does the fact that Gigeure saved 2 more per 1000 shots (according to the officially recorded save percentages which ignore arena biases and goaltender shot prevention) make up for the fact that Brodeur had 1921 officially recorded saves to 1391 for Giguere?

Edit: Giguere got 1 second place vote and 8 third place votes for the Vezina in 2007-08. Not even his own GM thought he deserved it!

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04-14-2012, 11:15 AM
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It's not like Giguerre pulled a Brian Elliot. He played 58 games in 07-08.

If you collectively at the 2002-03 season, Giguerre arguably equaled Brodeur's entire season.

Why don't we start judging players by their regular season and playoff collectively?
Playoffs are taken into account by some if not most of us here but it's not always a fair comp outside of the very few superstars IMO.

In the regular season everyone has the same template, more or less with a full season of games.

In the playoffs even the best players can't show anything if they don't play on a team good enough to make the playoffs.

Sure individual playoff success deserves some of the evaluation of how great a player is but I personally always struggle how much weight to put towards it, especially outside of truly great players like Wayne.

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04-14-2012, 03:22 PM
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The problem with the "European competition" argument is that there is no way to compare across contexts. What about the increase in population in North America? What about cultural shifts and new training and medical methods?

It becomes this impossibly philosophical, causal issue. Sports are inherently proportionate.

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04-14-2012, 05:58 PM
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Well Giguere wasn't exactly helping his team win games sitting on the bench.
I'm sick of this silly argument. There is no set standard for GP for goaltenders. This isn't the Glenn Hall era; skaters are expected to play every game, but goaltenders are not. Looking outside Giguere who has a medical reason for playing in the 60 GP range, most coaches do not give their #1 every game they want. Even a guy like Patrick Roy had to platoon in his prime because that's what the coach wanted.

Playing 77 games doesn't make one goaltender 25% better than one playing 58 games; it means the coach probably likes their #1 goalie more - or likes their #2 less. It's prejudicing the Vezina vote towards goalies who have their coaches under their thumb. In some cases (Cechmanek in 2001, Kiprusoff in 2004), they were legitimately the best goaltenders of their seasons, but they had to steal their workload from the player ahead of them on the depth chart - so no Vezina.

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Aguably according to who?
He was talking about 2002-03. You know, the season Brodeur won the Vezina with a .914 (14th) while Marty Turco had a .932 and Giguere had a .920 (and made more stops - which seemed important to you when talking about 2008 - despite playing fewer than Brodeur's 73 games).

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04-17-2012, 11:29 AM
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So what we get from this thread is to Smythes and you're a Hall of Famers?

It seems right yet somehow wrong.

I suppose Bernie Parent serves as a precedent, but he also won two Vezinas in those years.

So why does Tim Thomas get so much slack and people saying " maybe 5 more years and he's a Hall of Famer "?

Two Vezinas and a Smythe should nail him in right?

Martin St. Louis, unlike Thornton, is going to be 37 next season. He may not break the 1,000 point mark but he's got that mega season with the Ross, Hart, Lindsay and is a Cup Champion with 4 All-Star teams. I'd put him in on the prior basis.


People question Claude Lemieux, but he's got the Smythe and 4 rings.

Where does that leave Ron Hextall? A Vezina and a Smythe on his shelf.

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