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Old
07-07-2011, 05:42 PM
  #101
Sinurgy
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
I figured this was a better spot for this.

I hated the idea of Smith on June 30th.
I was extremely disappointed on July 1st.
By July 2nd I was resigned to the fact that he was the best we could do.
Yesterday I still felt he sucked and would fail, but understood the lack of options.
Today I find out we could've had an all star instead, but CHOSE the ****** backup.

That's why I'm pissed. We just decided not to make the playoffs. Why shouldn't I be pissed? Why aren't more of you equally pissed?
I will fully admit I don't understand why Maloney didn't go after Vokoun. To me he is the much superior option. The only thing I can think is that Maloney is dead serious about trying to land a true #1 center or a big time scorer, either of whom would command a large salary. I just can't imagine why else he would pass up on Vokoun whom is a proven number one and IMHO would probably surpass Bryz's numbers playing in a Tippet system.

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07-07-2011, 05:49 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
I figured this was a better spot for this.

I hated the idea of Smith on June 30th.
I was extremely disappointed on July 1st.
By July 2nd I was resigned to the fact that he was the best we could do.
Yesterday I still felt he sucked and would fail, but understood the lack of options.
Today I find out we could've had an all star instead, but CHOSE the ****** backup.

That's why I'm pissed. We just decided not to make the playoffs. Why shouldn't I be pissed? Why aren't more of you equally pissed?

I'm not pissed for a number of reasons:

1) I never expected the Coyotes to go after Vokoun. I hoped they could get a good younger goalie for cheap but recognized that probably wouldn't happen in the immediate future. Harding was the guy I expected. Smith isn't much better, but he's not much worse.

2) Give the team a chance to miss the playoffs before you assume they will. The offseason isn't even over yet. Lots can (and will) happen before training camp, more will happen during training camp, and then there's that whole regular season to worry about.

3) Smith has some upside. He's by no means an ace or even a lock to be a competent starter, and there's even a chance he loses the job to LaBarbera. But there's reason to believe he can be reliable.

4) I trust Maloney. I don't think the explanation is as simple as "He thinks Mike Smith is better than Tomas Vokoun" (unless it is, in which case there's a 98% chance he's a buffoon and a 2% chance he's a genius). But if the two possible scenarios are "Maloney is an awful judge of talent" and "Maloney didn't explain this situation very well," I'm guessing it was the latter.

5) Most importantly, the circus that is this team's ownership has been going for years now, with no end in sight. Grieving doesn't hurt so much when you really stretch it out.

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07-07-2011, 05:59 PM
  #103
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I would go a step further and say that he didn't just assure us to finish outside of the playoffs. With smith, we are likely a lottery team. Yay!

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07-07-2011, 06:14 PM
  #104
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This is going to be the best draft in a long time. The top five to ten, early one, are extremely impressive. Nail Yakupov and co. had better years LAST season than a lot of the kids who went early in this draft.

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07-07-2011, 06:45 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
I'm not pissed for a number of reasons:

1) I never expected the Coyotes to go after Vokoun. I hoped they could get a good younger goalie for cheap but recognized that probably wouldn't happen in the immediate future. Harding was the guy I expected. Smith isn't much better, but he's not much worse.

2) Give the team a chance to miss the playoffs before you assume they will. The offseason isn't even over yet. Lots can (and will) happen before training camp, more will happen during training camp, and then there's that whole regular season to worry about.

3) Smith has some upside. He's by no means an ace or even a lock to be a competent starter, and there's even a chance he loses the job to LaBarbera. But there's reason to believe he can be reliable.

4) I trust Maloney. I don't think the explanation is as simple as "He thinks Mike Smith is better than Tomas Vokoun" (unless it is, in which case there's a 98% chance he's a buffoon and a 2% chance he's a genius). But if the two possible scenarios are "Maloney is an awful judge of talent" and "Maloney didn't explain this situation very well," I'm guessing it was the latter.

5) Most importantly, the circus that is this team's ownership has been going for years now, with no end in sight. Grieving doesn't hurt so much when you really stretch it out.
#4 for sure

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Old
07-08-2011, 01:30 AM
  #106
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I'm not entirely against the signing, but if I'm GMDM, a serious thought that enters my head is when will Visentin be ready for the NHL?

I know the common approach would be to bring him along at a slightly accelerated Jimmy Howard-type pace, but if the kid proves to be what we think he may be in two years, where would that have left Vokoun if he did sign a 3-year deal? One could argue that if Visentin is in the NHL in two years, he's probably ready for a good amount of minutes. Then, we'd be paying someone $4.5 million to play 55 games with a young guy pushing him out of the way soon. If Visentin proves he is ready for a #1 role at the time, imagine moving a 38 year old goalie making $4.5 million. While Vokoun is good, I don't think we could muster a return that matches up.

The price tag was high and maybe to get Vokoun here for sure, we had to go above and beyond what we thought was necessary. I've learned to trust GMDM in his decisions, so that is all I can do from here on out...

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07-08-2011, 01:40 AM
  #107
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Visentin's 19. I'd be absolutely shocked if he gets a shot at a starting job 3 years from now, at age 22.

You're referring to Howard's 'accelerated development', yet Howard didn't get the starting job until he was 25 years old.

We don't have anyone in the system expected to be our go-to goalie within 3 years.

Also, as far as age is concerned, 38 is not that old for a goalie with a good health history.

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07-08-2011, 02:41 AM
  #108
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I think he means, at a Jimmy Howard pace, only accelerated.

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07-08-2011, 03:24 AM
  #109
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RT, your current state of lunacy is bordering on a level reserved for Coyote Tony. You are on shakier ground than the Coyote ownership situation. Please stay on the first floor wherever you go.

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07-08-2011, 07:41 AM
  #110
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Agasp (in my best Harry Potter) I thought we could not mention He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named

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Old
07-08-2011, 09:12 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naych_PHX View Post
I think he means, at a Jimmy Howard pace, only accelerated.
Correct, it may be wishful thinking that Visentin would be on an NHL roster at 21, but I think that by the time he is 23, Mark will be seeing somewhat regular time.

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07-08-2011, 09:24 AM
  #112
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Here's the most optimistic scenario I can envision for Visentin:

2011-2012: Visentin is in the OHL.
2012-2013: Visentin is in the AHL.
2013-2014: Visentin is a backup at the NHL level.
2014-2015: Visentin is an NHL starter.

But that's pretty unlikely. He'll probably be in the AHL for two years and then serve as a backup for two years, landing him a starting gig in the 2016-2017 season. And that's if he's good enough, which is in no way a foregone conclusion.

So it's not logical to plan for any of it. Plan for the now, goalie-wise, and then if you somehow have too many goalies, you trade one away. It worked for Washington.

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Old
07-08-2011, 09:46 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Devils Advocate View Post
RT, your current state of lunacy is bordering on a level reserved for Coyote Tony. You are on shakier ground than the Coyote ownership situation. Please stay on the first floor wherever you go.
Believing Vokoun @5 for 3 is >>> Smith @2 for 2 is the stuff of lunatics?

Go to the main forum and post poll. Only a lunatic would argue against that equation.

It's just so plainly obvious.

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07-08-2011, 09:52 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post

It's just so plainly obvious.
Except nobody knows the real story and without as much it seems a little silly to jump off the deep end.

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07-08-2011, 10:12 AM
  #115
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Did you listen to the interview?

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07-08-2011, 10:22 AM
  #116
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Quote:
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Did you listen to the interview?
Do you take everything at face value? I'm not the only one who has made it very clear that Maloney is not obligated to tell us the whole story, word for word.

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07-08-2011, 11:45 AM
  #117
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That's true. Have you listened, though?

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07-08-2011, 11:54 AM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rt View Post
That's true. Have you listened, though?
Yes, and on a purely logical basis your reasoning is sound. It would be stupid to not take Vokoun at 4, given the situation. But we don't know the whole story and given Maloney's penchant for being really good at his job, I don't doubt for a moment there's more to this than we are being told.

Do you think Maloney would go into this season with Smith over Vokoun, given the choice? I don't. I know he said he 'prefers' him but there was no context given for that comment. Prefers Smith why? We don't know.

If the objective is to win the race to the bottom for Yakupov, and the team is moving to QC, does this even matter?

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Old
07-08-2011, 12:05 PM
  #119
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As long as we're speculating, it should be mentioned that there were a lot of question marks raised last year regarding Vokoun's attitude, which is why Scott ****ing Clemmensen played 31 games last year.

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07-08-2011, 12:20 PM
  #120
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I will try my best to swallow "more at work than we know" regarding Vokoun.

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07-08-2011, 01:41 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post
Here's the most optimistic scenario I can envision for Visentin:

2011-2012: Visentin is in the OHL.
2012-2013: Visentin is in the AHL.
2013-2014: Visentin is a backup at the NHL level.
2014-2015: Visentin is an NHL starter.

But that's pretty unlikely. He'll probably be in the AHL for two years and then serve as a backup for two years, landing him a starting gig in the 2016-2017 season. And that's if he's good enough, which is in no way a foregone conclusion.

So it's not logical to plan for any of it. Plan for the now, goalie-wise, and then if you somehow have too many goalies, you trade one away. It worked for Washington.
2011-2012: Visentin is in the OHL. (Domingue is in the QMJHL)

2012-2013: Visentin is in the AHL. (Domingue is in the AHL)

2013-2014: Visentin is a backup at the NHL level. (Domingue is a starter at the NHL level)

2014-2015: Visentin is an NHL starter. (Over Domingues dead body)

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04-14-2012, 11:47 AM
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoPhan View Post





4) I trust Maloney. I don't think the explanation is as simple as "He thinks Mike Smith is better than Tomas Vokoun" (unless it is, in which case there's a 98% chance he's a buffoon and a 2% chance he's a genius). But if the two possible scenarios are "Maloney is an awful judge of talent" and "Maloney didn't explain this situation very well," I'm guessing it was the latter.
I'm gonna go with the 2% . Thought this thread would be fun to look back at. Some people were dead on in their assessments, while
others were way off.

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Old
04-14-2012, 12:08 PM
  #123
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Looking back at this thread I am glad this isnt only of these threads where I never made a post in until now. About halfway through the contract, Smith has been our best player with alot less ****s up than Bryz up to this point and he got us our 1st division win despite that horriable early March by him and the rest of the team and despite the ownership mess. I'll reserve more judgement of his future for now as there are still more games to be played yet.

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04-17-2012, 12:31 PM
  #124
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well, this isn't too bad. I mean, 2012 is a deep draft and we will be drafting really high now.

Or

sean burke works his magic with mike smith the headcase and he becomes a vezina candidate like bryz. One can hope.
qft!

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04-17-2012, 12:37 PM
  #125
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Likewise I am glad I remained neutral about the signing. My initial thought was that it would have been nice to get Vokoun at the contract he signed in Washington, but I was rather undecided about Smith. I never posted about it (I don't think) but I was cautiously optimistic that Smith would be able to find his game, but he turned out to be much better than my expectations. In the end I would consider him an equal replacement to Bryz, not an upgrade or a downgrade, and depending what happens in the playoffs yet he has a chance to become an upgrade. Based on contract alone he is an upgrade, but all things being equal otherwise it's a lateral move thus far.

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