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Harder Gretzky Record To Beat?

View Poll Results: Which Gretzky Record Will Be Harder To Break?
92 Goals In A Season 5 2.70%
215 Points In A Season 11 5.95%
10 Art Ross Trophies 3 1.62%
9 Hart Trophies 7 3.78%
Four 200 Point Seasons 33 17.84%
382 Career Playoff Points 2 1.08%
260 Career Playoff Assists 0 0%
16 Seasons Leading League In Assists 17 9.19%
1.921 Points Per Game In 1,000+ Career Games 15 8.11%
+98 In a Season By A Forward 2 1.08%
None of the above will ever be broken. 90 48.65%
Voters: 185. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-16-2012, 11:48 AM
  #51
unknown33
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
...and I don't care what you believe so lets just call it even shall we
It's not really about believing or not, more about how much you undestand simple statistics.

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Old
04-16-2012, 12:44 PM
  #52
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Crosby would have to team up with Ovechkin to beat these records. Maybe even need Malkin's help..

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Old
04-16-2012, 01:24 PM
  #53
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Yeah... these are all locks unless massive rule changes come into effect or the NHL finally starts allowing robotic hockey players.

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04-16-2012, 02:00 PM
  #54
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I doubt any of these ever get broken but I said 4x 200 point seasons only because it seems to be the most unreachable single achievement on the list (200 pts is 2x the current top scoring, far over 1.921 pts/game, etc.) then has to happen 4 times.

I doubt Wayne himself in his prime could beat his records in the modern NHL, you watch compilations of a lot of ordinary points for him and probably more than half of them don't go in in the modern NHL.


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Old
04-16-2012, 04:46 PM
  #55
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In 85-86, Mario Lemieux had a monster year: 48 goals 93 assists 141 points

That exact same year, Wayne Gretzky somehow did this: 52 goals 163 assists 215 points

His 163 assists were exactly 73 more assists than Lemieux's monster 2nd place assist total that year. He beat 2nd place Mario Lemieux by more than what this year's assist leader Henrik Sedin scored over the entire year.

Conclusion: 163 assists should be a poll option.

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Old
04-16-2012, 04:48 PM
  #56
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Any of the numerical records can be beaten with some simple rule changes. Enough changes could get offense back up to 80s levels then some of those numbers are achievable.

9 Hart Trophies is nearly impossible. To be the MVP of a major sports league 9 times is amazing - nobody in any sport has come close to that.

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Old
04-16-2012, 04:54 PM
  #57
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^^^^ 8 straight MVPs might be even more impressive. Of course, 9 in 10 years, as he did it, might be just as impressive

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Old
04-16-2012, 04:59 PM
  #58
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For me, 16 seasons lead in assists, and not just leads, he pulverized the competition .

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Old
04-16-2012, 06:41 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo View Post
9 Hart Trophies is nearly impossible. To be the MVP of a major sports league 9 times is amazing - nobody in any sport has come close to that.
Abdul-Jabbar landed 6 in the NBA.

Jordan had 5, which is important to note because he left for 2 years still in his prime, could have had as many as 7, maybe even 8 but most likely more than 5.

And that's NBA where players rarely come close to playing 20 seasons.

And although a steroid junkie, Barry Bonds won 7 NL MVPs.

NFL is a whole different system ( although QBs are often MVPs ).


Not that I'm disagreeing with those 9 Harts being unbreakable, to get 10 defies logic, but I was trying to make a point that other leagues have seen some players rack up plenty themselves.

Howe won 6 himself.


But the biggest knock on those 9 Harts would be that the award is essentially for best forward. Considering that only 2 goaltenders and two defensemen have won it since 1962.

And excluding Gretzky, all but 8 forwards were Centers, including 3 the past 7 seasons.

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04-16-2012, 07:06 PM
  #60
tazzy19
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^^^ Yet no one else has come remotely close to 8 straight MVPs in any sport.

Incidentally, Gretz could have easily won at least two more Harts. In 87-88, he was on track for another 190+ point season before his 16 game injury. Looking at the Oilers' and the Pen's records that year, I would say he had the Hart pretty much in the bag if not for the injury. That would have given him 10 straight MVPs. And then you have his 122 assist year in 1991 with the Kings, where he almost won the scoring title with his assists alone, and won the scoring title by 32 points, propelling the Kings to 1st in the conference. That was a Hart year, no doubt, but Hull's 86 goals (forgetting his 45 assists) made for the sexier story.


Last edited by tazzy19: 04-17-2012 at 03:06 PM.
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Old
04-16-2012, 07:09 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Abdul-Jabbar landed 6 in the NBA.

Jordan had 5, which is important to note because he left for 2 years still in his prime, could have had as many as 7, maybe even 8 but most likely more than 5.

And that's NBA where players rarely come close to playing 20 seasons.
The NBA is a superstar league filled with relatively small rosters and an extremely small core of elite talent. There's even less elite talent that is on a team good enough to win championships. As a result, we'll repeatedly see guys racking up multiple MVPs in the NBA. If LeBron stays on Cleveland his whole career, he likely would have surpassed KAJ or Jordan in MVPs (he still probably will).

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Old
04-16-2012, 07:17 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Abdul-Jabbar landed 6 in the NBA.

Jordan had 5, which is important to note because he left for 2 years still in his prime, could have had as many as 7, maybe even 8 but most likely more than 5.

And that's NBA where players rarely come close to playing 20 seasons.

And although a steroid junkie, Barry Bonds won 7 NL MVPs.

NFL is a whole different system ( although QBs are often MVPs ).


Not that I'm disagreeing with those 9 Harts being unbreakable, to get 10 defies logic, but I was trying to make a point that other leagues have seen some players rack up plenty themselves.

Howe won 6 himself.


But the biggest knock on those 9 Harts would be that the award is essentially for best forward. Considering that only 2 goaltenders and two defensemen have won it since 1962.

And excluding Gretzky, all but 8 forwards were Centers, including 3 the past 7 seasons.
Since the 61-62 season there have been 50 Hart Trophy winners (including Malkin)

4 goalie winners (8%)
4 defenseman winners (8%)
7 right-wing winners (14%)
4 left-wing winners (8%)
31 centre winners (62%)

Of the 31 centre winners 15 are represented by Gretzky or Lemieux. Remove them from the equation and it looks like

Goalies 4/35 - 11.4%
Defenseman 4/35 - 11.4%
Right-wing 7/35 - 20%
Left-wing 4/35 - 11.4%
Centre - 45.7%

If you remove Gretzky/Lemieux the centre numbers start to look a lot more realistic than before.

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Old
04-16-2012, 07:23 PM
  #63
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Whoops. Didn't see the last one.

None of them will ever be beaten. Ever.

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Old
04-16-2012, 08:16 PM
  #64
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It should tell you everything (when it comes to his records) when 92 goals is probably the easiest record to break.

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Old
04-16-2012, 08:35 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
It should tell you everything (when it comes to his records) when 92 goals is probably the easiest record to break.


Just insane how good he was

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Old
04-16-2012, 09:08 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Since the 61-62 season there have been 50 Hart Trophy winners (including Malkin)

4 goalie winners (8%)
4 defenseman winners (8%)
7 right-wing winners (14%)
4 left-wing winners (8%)
31 centre winners (62%)

Of the 31 centre winners 15 are represented by Gretzky or Lemieux. Remove them from the equation and it looks like

Goalies 4/35 - 11.4%
Defenseman 4/35 - 11.4%
Right-wing 7/35 - 20%
Left-wing 4/35 - 11.4%
Centre - 45.7%

If you remove Gretzky/Lemieux the centre numbers start to look a lot more realistic than before.
those seasons would still have had harts awarded. F's are picked much more often than G or D, and C more than W. that era was also full of great C's.

i think dionne would have won in '80 and '81. trottier most likely would have won at least another. hawerchuk probably in '85. yzerman in '89. probably lafontaine or gilmour in '93.

in most of the seasons 99 or 66 won, another C probably would have won.

even though G and D were sometimes hart finalists (liut, peeters, howe, bourque, langway), i think only bourque would have been close to winning the hart if gretzky and lemieux had been absent.

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Old
04-17-2012, 10:42 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zrinski View Post
Off that list I'd say the 1.9 ppg. Though Gretzky himself has said 50 goals in 50 games is the hardest of his records to beat.
That wouldn't be THAT hard.

Gretzky got 50 goals in 39 games! THAT would be very hard to get!

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04-17-2012, 10:46 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazzy19 View Post
In 85-86, Mario Lemieux had a monster year: 48 goals 93 assists 141 points

That exact same year, Wayne Gretzky somehow did this: 52 goals 163 assists 215 points

His 163 assists were exactly 73 more assists than Lemieux's monster 2nd place assist total that year. He beat 2nd place Mario Lemieux by more than what this year's assist leader Henrik Sedin scored over the entire year.

Conclusion: 163 assists should be a poll option.
Most people who saw Lemiuex and Gretzky in their prime said Lemieux was more talented and Gretzky HIMSELF said that!

Lemieux was on a pace to score 300 points after the first 10 games in 88-89! Lemieux even filmed a commercial for ESPN about what it would take to score 100 goals!

I'm still amazed that Lemieux never scored 200 points or 100 goals since it sure looked like he would. He did get 199 points in 88-89 which is the closest anyone has gotten next to the Great One.

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04-17-2012, 01:52 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladesofSTEELwFIRE View Post
Most people who saw Lemiuex and Gretzky in their prime said Lemieux was more talented and Gretzky HIMSELF said that!

Lemieux was on a pace to score 300 points after the first 10 games in 88-89! Lemieux even filmed a commercial for ESPN about what it would take to score 100 goals!

I'm still amazed that Lemieux never scored 200 points or 100 goals since it sure looked like he would. He did get 199 points in 88-89 which is the closest anyone has gotten next to the Great One.
Lemieus was "on pace" for a lot of things, Gretzky actually did all those things.

I voted for "all" but I think the assist records and 50 in 39 are hardest. 50 in 50 has been achieved 8 (only 8!) times in NHL history by 5 different players. Gretzky did it the fastest in 39 games, 2nd fastest in 42 games and 4th fastest (49 games) - out of the 8 times this has been achieved, Gretzky achieved 3 of them. Bossy, Lemieux, Hull, Richard are the only other players to do it, all fantastic goal scorers, all routinely listed as better goal scorers than Gretzky...yet none of them can touch Gretzky's goal scoring records.

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04-17-2012, 01:58 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladesofSTEELwFIRE View Post
Most people who saw Lemiuex and Gretzky in their prime said Lemieux was more talented and Gretzky HIMSELF said that!

Lemieux was on a pace to score 300 points after the first 10 games in 88-89! Lemieux even filmed a commercial for ESPN about what it would take to score 100 goals!

I'm still amazed that Lemieux never scored 200 points or 100 goals since it sure looked like he would. He did get 199 points in 88-89 which is the closest anyone has gotten next to the Great One.
The bolded stat is well within statistical variance for a player of Lemieux's calibre.

Gretzky actually did get 215 points and I wouldn't be surprised if he had a 10 game span where he was on pace for 500 points. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Lemieux on pace for 500 points in a different 10 game span.

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04-18-2012, 01:48 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
The bolded stat is well within statistical variance for a player of Lemieux's calibre.

Gretzky actually did get 215 points and I wouldn't be surprised if he had a 10 game span where he was on pace for 500 points. I also wouldn't be surprised to see Lemieux on pace for 500 points in a different 10 game span.
The point is Lemieux is the only other player that the media and hockey broadcasters have discussed getting 200 points.

When Lemieux was tearing it up it 88-89 he actually filmed a segment for ESPN about what it would take to score 100 goals. ESPN chose Lemieux for that segment not Gretzky.

If you look at that season Lemieux was clearly the more exciting and talented player if people here recall!

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04-18-2012, 02:32 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladesofSTEELwFIRE View Post
The point is Lemieux is the only other player that the media and hockey broadcasters have discussed getting 200 points.

When Lemieux was tearing it up it 88-89 he actually filmed a segment for ESPN about what it would take to score 100 goals. ESPN chose Lemieux for that segment not Gretzky.

If you look at that season Lemieux was clearly the more exciting and talented player if people here recall!
Lemieux was more exciting, yes, but Gretzky was clearly better.

Who has the most goals in a season? Gretzky.

Who has the highest GPG in a season? Gretzky

Who has the most assists in a season? Gretzky

Who has the highest APG in a season? Gretzky

Who has the most points in a season? Gretzky

Who has the highest PPG in a season? Gretzky

Who has the best period of dominance? Gretzky his his 153 points in 51 games. Lemieux never even came close.

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Old
04-18-2012, 11:54 AM
  #73
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It's definitely a tough choice, and none will likely be broken. 10 art ross trophies, 9 harts, and 16 seasons leading the league in assists are some of the most untouchable records in all of sports. I personally think Cy Young's 511 wins is the most impossible record to ever reach, but some of 99's are up there.

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04-18-2012, 07:13 PM
  #74
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16 seasons leading the league in assists.

As others have said, that record is independent of rule changes, scoring could go up or down, and it wouldn't matter. To be the best in the league that many years requires not only great talent, but great health.

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04-18-2012, 09:04 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BladesofSTEELwFIRE View Post
Most people who saw Lemiuex and Gretzky in their prime said Lemieux was more talented and Gretzky HIMSELF said that!

Lemieux was on a pace to score 300 points after the first 10 games in 88-89! Lemieux even filmed a commercial for ESPN about what it would take to score 100 goals!

I'm still amazed that Lemieux never scored 200 points or 100 goals since it sure looked like he would. He did get 199 points in 88-89 which is the closest anyone has gotten next to the Great One.
Lemieux said Gretzky was the greatest player ever. Doesn't mean anything. They're just being humble.

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