When? Don't say after Wilson was fired, because that was just hold over from Wilson (not that I would call that exactly 'aggressive', but more-so than now)
They are 55 freaking percent after 3 playoffs games, and 29th in the league after the regular season. bottom 5 for two straight years... If you are correct, they clearly don't have the personnel to pull THIS strategy off either.
They were fairly aggressive for all the years they had Blake and Nabokov.
The idea is it actually could be a lot worse. They have suspect D in front of a goalie who has trouble controlling the puck along with poor lateral movement. That doesn't seem like a good pk hand.
They were fairly aggressive for all the years they had Blake and Nabokov.
The idea is it actually could be a lot worse. They have suspect D in front of a goalie who has trouble controlling the puck along with poor lateral movement. That doesn't seem like a good pk hand.
Suspect D? Most teams would KILL to have Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Murray... etc. I agree on the goalie issue, but the Hawks had a very aggressive PK with Niemi and it worked better than ours is.
I can see the logic in TRYING a passive PK, but that time has LONG passed. That they are still sticking with it simply is a sign that they don't know what else to do.
Suspect D? Most teams would KILL to have Boyle, Burns, Vlasic, Murray... etc. I agree on the goalie issue, but the Hawks had a very aggressive PK with Niemi and it worked better than ours is.
I can see the logic in TRYING a passive PK, but that time has LONG passed. That they are still sticking with it simply is a sign that they don't know what else to do.
Ok so with Boyle caught by himself which could happen on an agressive pk how do you think he fairs? How well could he box someone out? How reliable is his stick in order to pull off the stick lift?
Vlasic has gotten better but he is still not strong against the cycle. Now with Blake this wasn't an issue.
Murray is too slow to be overly aggressive.
The Sharks hoped Burns would be able to fill Blakes shoes. It hasn't quite worked out yet although the coaching staff whose heads you are calling for have really improved Burns overall game.
But JT has 3 points in three games... Also I don't see Wingels slowing the play down as an example. Its up to the coach to direct players.
I am thinking more of Clowe and Couture; Wingels is fine. And I have watched JT neutralize speed in the NZ when he chooses not to go for direct entry with two open wingers moving. Looked right at em and went for the chip/dump. Same for own-zone exits. He has a previous turnover and then chooses a safe board play over hitting an open winger coming out of the zone for the rest of the game.
He will score points with his play, but it is the team effect with which I am concerned with others making the same choices.
I am a season ticket holder. This year has been torture. The team is not even remotely fun to watch. The PK is an embarrassment. It's been bad all year and nothing has been done to fix it. TMAC and his band of incompetent assistants need to go.
DW should be fired for letting McGinn go for two worthless players.
Unless I see big changes coming I will not renew. I'll stay home and watch it on my big screen tv for FREE.
Ok so with Boyle caught by himself which could happen on an agressive pk how do you think he fairs? How well could he box someone out? How reliable is his stick in order to pull off the stick lift?
Vlasic has gotten better but he is still not strong against the cycle. Now with Blake this wasn't an issue.
Murray is too slow to be overly aggressive.
The Sharks hoped Burns would be able to fill Blakes shoes. It hasn't quite worked out yet although the coaching staff whose heads you are calling for have really improved Burns overall game.
No matter what PK system we use, it's not going to be impenetrable. At this point we are simply looking for any improvement, not perfection. A lot of people were calling for the Sharks to bring in quality PK'ers and that would solve the problem. I said it would be stupid and have no effect. Guess what happened? They brought in Moore, Winnick, and Galiardi, all with excellent PK credentials, and the PK kept right on clicking along at a miserable rate.
Could we have better PK personnel? Of course, but that doesn't mean they'd be better all around players. With proper special teams coaching, this team could have an excellent PK.
Also, I admit, McLellan is great with individual players for the most part, which is why he's a great assistant coach. It's his whole team strategy that is ineffective.
I am thinking more of Clowe and Couture; Wingels is fine. And I have watched JT neutralize speed in the NZ when he chooses not to go for direct entry with two open wingers moving. Looked right at em and went for the chip/dump. Same for own-zone exits. He has a previous turnover and then chooses a safe board play over hitting an open winger coming out of the zone for the rest of the game.
He will score points with his play, but it is the team effect with which I am concerned with others making the same choices.
I absolutely see it with Clowe. He's been trying to become JT-lite for years, and he isn't smart enough to be successful at it, like JT is. Couture, I see sometimes, but he's redeemable, in my opinion. But the onus would be on the coaches to say 'hey Logan, you don't have the body type to play like JT, so stop it".
One thing's for sure, Clowe is out. All the reasons to keep him from last season (playoff performer, accountability, physicality) are all out the window. I do feel that he hasn't recovered completely from his injury last season, but at this point, with the type of style he plays, who knows if he ever will.
Murray, trade him for a 2nd round pick if you can manage that. He's just awful right now except for big hits. And he's an awful partner for Burns, completely drags him down. Because Murray is so slow and his positioning has fallen off a cliff this past year, Burns has to be the defensively responsible partner as well, and that means he can't be as aggressive offensively like he could when he was with Vlasic.
Boyle, he has really lost a step and it's very evident. Again, I don't think he recovered completely from his injuries last post-season, and now he's just older, takes so much longer to heal, and doesn't have the stamina to play 35 minutes a game. I don't know what to do with him, but something has to change.
I absolutely see it with Clowe. He's been trying to become JT-lite for years, and he isn't smart enough to be successful at it, like JT is. Couture, I see sometimes, but he's redeemable, in my opinion. But the onus would be on the coaches to say 'hey Logan, you don't have the body type to play like JT, so stop it".
One thing's for sure, Clowe is out. All the reasons to keep him from last season (playoff performer, accountability, physicality) are all out the window. I do feel that he hasn't recovered completely from his injury last season, but at this point, with the type of style he plays, who knows if he ever will.
Murray, trade him for a 2nd round pick if you can manage that. He's just awful right now except for big hits. And he's an awful partner for Burns, completely drags him down. Because Murray is so slow and his positioning has fallen off a cliff this past year, Burns has to be the defensively responsible partner as well, and that means he can't be as aggressive offensively like he could when he was with Vlasic.
Boyle, he has really lost a step and it's very evident. Again, I don't think he recovered completely from his injuries last post-season, and now he's just older, takes so much longer to heal, and doesn't have the stamina to play 35 minutes a game. I don't know what to do with him, but something has to change.
JT moves his feet while pulling the puck off the boards, Clowe doesn't. Agree on Couture being redeemable. At least he goes to the net after getting off the boards unlike JT. He isn't good at controlling play low. He could substitute speed for JT's size/reach but he doesn't have that speed (see Moore/Desi who don't have Couture hands). The Sharks have Handzus who plays a JT type game and we all know where that went with Handzus' total lack of speed. I see Couture ultimately ending up as a winger and a good (not great) one at that. I don't mind the Couture/Havlat combo and they are complementary.
JT moves his feet while pulling the puck off the boards, Clowe doesn't. Agree on Couture being redeemable. At least he goes to the net after getting off the boards unlike JT. He isn't good at controlling play low. He could substitute speed for JT's size/reach but he doesn't have that speed (see Moore/Desi who don't have Couture hands). The Sharks have Handzus who plays a JT type game and we all know where that went with Handzus' total lack of speed. I see Couture ultimately ending up as a winger and a good (not great) one at that. I don't mind the Couture/Havlat combo and they are complementary.
Well, Handzus is gone, Clowe is gone, Moore is gone, Couture is a winger, and Desjardins shouldn't be too hard to convince that he's not JT.
Couture-Marleau-Havlat is a line I'd love to try. Speed, hands, defensive ability, good mix of shooting and playmaking.
I was just headed for class and too angry to write a coherent argument the first time around.
If the Sharks bow out this round (no, I haven't completely given up hope but I also don't see much to be optimistic about based off of what they, the players, have shown me).
I doubt Wilson would be fired, so starting from there:
Say goodbye to TMac and the assistants.
Look to find a goaltender with puck-handling ability and rebound control.
Trade Marleau (even how unlikely, it really needs to happen)
Trade Boyle. One of my favorite players for a long time, but if he has value I would try and salvage it. He still has some rebound years left in him, and I could see him doing very well on a new team, but it is time to move on.
Trade Clowe and Murray.
See if there is any legitimate way to jettison Handguns.
Let Mitchell walk, unless he wants to sign for league minimum and give the younger guys/camp try-outs/new acquisitions competition. Mitchell was my favorite for a long time, but I am beyond ready to be done with him if we can upgrade.
Re-sign Brad Winchester, Vandy, Desi, Ferriero, Wingels, Braun. Look for upgrade at Moore's position, or sign for league minimum.
Dangle Vlasic, Pavelski, and Demers to see what value they could bring in return (you would want to trade our best defenseman this year?! are you stupid!?). Vlasic is overrated. Sell high if we can. I love Pavelski, and would look to surround him with more competent linemates, but I would also be curious as to what we could get in trade. See what interest we have in Demers.
Get in a time machine and undo the Winnik/Galiardi for McGinn trade. If that isn't possible, re-sign T.J. and pray he is worth what some saw in him and only to not admit that we got fleeced in that trade. Re-sign Winnik only if he will take what he is worth and not what he was rumored to be looking for.
Build around JT, Couture, Burns, Havlat, Wingels... then Pavelski, Vlasic, and Demers if not involved in trade. Bring in coaches with a clue and a system. Add speed and size throughout the rest of the line-up. Asking for guys that can finish might be asking for too much.
You don't fire both from a 2x conf finalist that has had 1 off year in which they still made the playoffs. That's overstating the problem. The problem is one of two things, either the system is making players look better than they are, or the the lack of talent is holding back the system. I don't think it's players work either or them all having an off year simultaneously.
Personally, I look at the pieces to this team and believe it should be a top 4 NHL team. To me, the sharks lack the following:
An effective PK. With winnik, pavelski, vlasic, etc, plus the amount of passes through the heart of the PK that lead to backdoor goals, this is a system problem. (McLellan)
An effective Zone entry. With Boyle/Burns, Thornton/Couture/Marleau/Havlat, the Sharks should be able to enter the opposing zone or dump it in more often than turning it over. Instead, you see every single 3on2 or 2on2 zone entry curl high at the blue line and at best, lose the rush, at worst lose the zone and a turnover headed the other way. (McLellan mostly, partly for DW only having a million slow centermen on every line)
A difficult team to play against. You know what? The Sharks are soft. Losing Setoguchi and McGinn has destroyed any pressure the Sharks used to put on defensemen. The forecheck is weak because no opponents worry about avoiding a body check or being forced to protect the puck rather than advance it because a check is incoming. This is on both (McLellan for muzzling Clowe, Wilson for trading McGinn and for not replacing Setoguchi's checking). The Sharks are an easy team to shut down.
Rewarding the wrong behaviors. I'm really sick of every time the Sharks lose, they point to a hot goalie or bad bounces. It's not that. The system generates shots but not scoring chances, and gives up few shots but lots of high quality chances. This is a system that creates a red herring crutch of "oh we outshot them, we just got unlucky." Bull. It's a flawed system (McLellan).
Inability to adjust. McLellan is consistently out-coached both mid-game and mid-series. This is just my opinion, but I feel coaches that can adjust, such as Hitchcock, are better suited to success. It took Hitchcock a few months to realize he needed to stack his powerplay with R/R and L/L shots. McLellan took a full year to realize the 1-2-1 PK was a moronic idea. He still hasn't figured out that an NHL PK actually needs to stop the cross-ice pass to the backdoor. Wonder when that light-bulb will go on. (McLellan)
IMO, McLellan's got a lot of work to do. This is a roster that should be a WCF team, or at worst a 2nd round exit. A 7th seed and 1st round exit with this amount of talent is not acceptable. Sadly, I think he's incapable of change. A top-tier assistant coach, but possibly a bottom-3rd head coach.
Almost agree, but I think Jumbo stays. He's still one of the best at what he does. Its his supporting cast that lacks what it takes. Besides, we need at least one star to keep around (Couture doesn't have that about him - yet).
I know this entire discussion is for the offseason but I've been a partial season ticket holder for years and I see no reason to re-up.
We know what the definition of insanity is... expecting this team to ever win the cup is just that.
No point in keeping Jumbo on a team heading into a rebuild. Trade him while he has value.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WantonAbandon
They were fairly aggressive for all the years they had Blake and Nabokov.
The idea is it actually could be a lot worse. They have suspect D in front of a goalie who has trouble controlling the puck along with poor lateral movement. That doesn't seem like a good pk hand.
I believed the passive PK was OK when we lacked speedy forwards but with Winnik and Marleau, you can tell they act neutered.
Get them to play aggressive and pressure the points and cut off passing lanes and you don't worry as much about our supposedly weak D.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadmanSJ
I was just headed for class and too angry to write a coherent argument the first time around.
If the Sharks bow out this round (no, I haven't completely given up hope but I also don't see much to be optimistic about based off of what they, the players, have shown me).
I doubt Wilson would be fired, so starting from there:
Say goodbye to TMac and the assistants.
Look to find a goaltender with puck-handling ability and rebound control.
Trade Marleau (even how unlikely, it really needs to happen)
Trade Boyle. One of my favorite players for a long time, but if he has value I would try and salvage it. He still has some rebound years left in him, and I could see him doing very well on a new team, but it is time to move on.
Trade Clowe and Murray.
See if there is any legitimate way to jettison Handguns.
Let Mitchell walk, unless he wants to sign for league minimum and give the younger guys/camp try-outs/new acquisitions competition. Mitchell was my favorite for a long time, but I am beyond ready to be done with him if we can upgrade.
Re-sign Brad Winchester, Vandy, Desi, Ferriero, Wingels, Braun. Look for upgrade at Moore's position, or sign for league minimum.
Dangle Vlasic, Pavelski, and Demers to see what value they could bring in return (you would want to trade our best defenseman this year?! are you stupid!?). Vlasic is overrated. Sell high if we can. I love Pavelski, and would look to surround him with more competent linemates, but I would also be curious as to what we could get in trade. See what interest we have in Demers.
Get in a time machine and undo the Winnik/Galiardi for McGinn trade. If that isn't possible, re-sign T.J. and pray he is worth what some saw in him and only to not admit that we got fleeced in that trade. Re-sign Winnik only if he will take what he is worth and not what he was rumored to be looking for.
Build around JT, Couture, Burns, Havlat, Wingels... then Pavelski, Vlasic, and Demers if not involved in trade. Bring in coaches with a clue and a system. Add speed and size throughout the rest of the line-up. Asking for guys that can finish might be asking for too much.
I agree with most everything you said except...
I'd hope DW is let go, too. He has to take ultimate accountability. For whatever reason, the players he is getting aren't a fit for TMac's system. Also, the trades he has made haven't yielded the results so why should he stay?
There is no point to keeping JT. He is aging. Trade him while he has value. I'd hate to deal Pavs but we need speedy forwards and he isn't it.
On Handguns, it's a minor issue if we do a major overhaul. We wouldn't need cap space and he'd only have another year. Who cares at that point.
Why do some people want to get rid of Thornton? Makes no sense, he's doing what he needs for the team. You can't just trade everyone because they are going to decline. Marleau is different because he's currently not doing what he should be.
The worst part is reading article after article about all the parity in the league and realizing that in a year with quite possibly the most parity ever we still suck.
I'm actually glad we didn't get the matchup with the Nucks this year because sure, we would probably have beaten them with how poorly they're playing, but it would only cover up the serious problems we have.
There is no point to keeping JT. He is aging. Trade him while he has value.
That's a ridiculous idea. JT isn't in his late 30's nor will his style of play suddenly cause him to fall off a cliff. Once this contract is up he will most likely take a fairly large paycut. The Sens didn't dump Alfredsson, the Flyers didn't dump Briere and the Lightning still haven't dumped Lecavlier/St.Louis when/while they were all rebuilding. Of course you could point to the Leafs and Sundin but I'd like to think the Sharks won't get as bad as the Leafs have been this past decade. You don't just throw away players like that "just cuz".
That's a ridiculous idea. JT isn't in his late 30's nor will his style of play suddenly cause him to fall off a cliff. Once this contract is up he will most likely take a fairly large paycut. The Sens didn't dump Alfredsson, the Flyers didn't dump Briere and the Lightning still haven't dumped Lecavlier/St.Louis when/while they were all rebuilding. Of course you could point to the Leafs and Sundin but I'd like to think the Sharks won't get as bad as the Leafs have been this past decade. You don't just throw away players like that "just cuz".
I think it will be exactly like the Leafs because of DW's penchant for vets. And the play does fall off, just not on the scoreboard as his d-zone minutes will be reduced.
The other reason is the team style of play which is very much geared to JT and is demonstrably not a playoff winning style. If you want to swap styles, you swap the player who sets the style and that is JT.
This is not a knock on JT himself. He is very good at what he does. It is the team effect. Playing the game of sacred cows is exactly what got the Leafs in trouble.
Why do some people want to get rid of Thornton? Makes no sense, he's doing what he needs for the team. You can't just trade everyone because they are going to decline. Marleau is different because he's currently not doing what he should be.
This. Thornton has easily been the best forward for the 2nd half of the regular season and the post-season. His linemates just aren't doing enough. If you're going to trade one of Thornton or Marleau, trade Marleau. Thornton has proven time-in and time-out that he's capable of carrying a line. Marleau this season has shown to be an elite complimentary player, but not something you build a top-line around.
Last year in the playoffs Couture was tweeting regularly. Excitement after a win, positive thoughts after a loss.. asking us Sharks fans to stay loud and believe. He's been pretty silent on Twitter for the tail end of the season and throughout the entire playoffs.
Could be meaningless, but it seems to me that he (and the majority of the team) aren't as into it this year. Maybe they know they can't beat the Blues, maybe they just haven't had confidence all season or maybe there is just general unhappiness in the locker room.
It's interesting to me that a coach like Hitchcock can turn around a team of young, talented, largely inexperienced players (with a few vets thrown in) and develop a successful system in less than 82 games.
And yet, our coaches have had an entire season to figure out what is wrong with our PK, and halfway through the first round, they still haven't come to a solution. How can that be?
Also, we played the Blues four times this year, and failed to win a game. Can anyone explain the strategy the coaches have rolled out for us against them in this series? I haven't been able to watch each game very closely, but it seems like we're still trying to play our game (the dump and chase, and battle along the boards game). Is that true? And if so, why wouldn't we alter our strategy against this team when it obviously hasn't worked against them?
That's a ridiculous idea. JT isn't in his late 30's nor will his style of play suddenly cause him to fall off a cliff. Once this contract is up he will most likely take a fairly large paycut. The Sens didn't dump Alfredsson, the Flyers didn't dump Briere and the Lightning still haven't dumped Lecavlier/St.Louis when/while they were all rebuilding. Of course you could point to the Leafs and Sundin but I'd like to think the Sharks won't get as bad as the Leafs have been this past decade. You don't just throw away players like that "just cuz".
Trading JT this offseason is for value. Trading him later, if ever, lessens his value. Re-signing a declining/aging JT is more of the same but even less productive at that point.
Simply put, I want a completely different team - players, staff, org philosophy, minors - and if it takes a 3-5 years of crap cellar dweller, so be it. Get whatever we can with what assets we have. Spare some of the young ones who are worth it. JT's style isn't one I want any more. He's a warrior, yes, love him, yes, but I don't want this style anymore on the Sharks.
I have had it with this team and before anyone responds with a snide, don't be so pessimistic/jumping off the bandwagon comment, shove it. I've been a fan ever since we got a franchise. This team is plain gutless and we know that. Look at how much effort the team pre-lockout gave. This team is a far cry from that. There is a rotten-ness to the core feel about this team.
If they happen to miraculously pull this off this season, fantastic. Laugh at me while we're jumping for joy.
