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Random fact - 2006 draft trade

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Old
04-16-2012, 08:54 PM
  #76
BillyD
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Originally Posted by robdicks View Post
Detroit Red-Wings

1990- Drafted Keith Premeau 3rd overall when Jaromir Jagr was avaialbe at 5
1991- Drafted Martin Lapointe 10th overall when Alexei Kovalev was available at 15
1992- Drafted Curtis Bowen 22nd overall when Mike Peca was available at 40
1993- Drafted Anders Eriksson 22nd overall when Todd Bertuzzi was available at 23
1994- Drafted Yan Golubovsky 23rd overall when Rhett Warrener was available at 27
1995- Drafted Maxim Kuznetsov 26th overall when Jochen Hecht was available at 49
1996- Drafted Jesse Wallin 26th overall when Cory Sarich was available at 27th
1997- Drafted Yuri Butzayev 49th overall when Maxim Afinogenov was available at 69
1998- Drafted Jiri Fischer 25th overall when Scott Gomez was available at 27
1999- Drafted Jari Tolsa 120th overall when Ryan Miller was available at 138


I'm not trying to defend Toronto's drafting history as it's not exactly a who's who of draft gems, but Detroit is actually a team that drafts pretty poorly in the 1st and second round. (or at least they did in the 90s). You insulting Toronto's drafting record in the 90s and asking for people to take a look at Detroit is ridiculous.

If you are looking for Toronto draft Gems then I'll give you some just for argument's sake. (every team has draft busts and gems, most of it is luck, and Toronto is pretty mediocre at it.)

1990- Felix Potvin 31 overall
1991- Dmitri Mironov 160th overall
1992- Grant Marshall 23rd overall
1993- Kenny Jonsson 12th overall
1994- Frederick Modin 64th overall
1995- Danil Markov 223rd overall
1996- Tomas Kaberle 204th overall
1997- Adam Mair 84th overall
1998- Alexei Ponikarovsky 87th overall
2000- Brad Boyes 24th overall
if you seriously want to get into this i will, but i cant tell if you are serious so i'll be brief

if i were to make a list of leafs draft busts and line them up against wings draft gems i think we all know the wings gems would be better than every single leafs bust

but look at your lists

detroit "bust" martin lapointe, at 991 has more career games to his name than every single leafs "gem" pick you listed

did you ever see lapointe play? i mean granted he was not the same type of player as kovalev, but if youre trying to compare this to taking tlusty over giroux its a bit weak to be polite ... by the way in this same "bust" detroit draft year they took knuble (over 1000 games to his name) and chris osgood who might have trouble hearing your argument, you see, he has multiple stanley cup rings in his ears

and keith primeau is a bust? did i read this right? not even going to go there suffice to say anyone would see this as ridiculous

but like you said youre not defending the leafs draft record ... were you trying to be sarcastic?

maybe we shouldnt go on about this too much in case a wings fan reads it, that would be embarassing for all of us


Last edited by BillyD: 04-16-2012 at 09:01 PM.
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04-16-2012, 09:10 PM
  #77
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Here's the gist of the discussion:

Detroit is not that great in drafting 1st round and second round talent. They are good, however, in getting later round (4th round and later) talent.
The fact that this happens shows us that Detroit does get lucky when they draft. If they were drafting logically, they would take their Zetterbergs and Datsyuks before their Jari Tolsas and Andrei Maximenkos. Would it make sense to take the best talent before other teams snatch them up?
Yes Detroit does sometimes get good talent in the bleakest parts of the draft, but that shouldn't be something they should be proud of.

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04-16-2012, 10:39 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by cookie View Post
Here's the gist of the discussion:

Detroit is not that great in drafting 1st round and second round talent. They are good, however, in getting later round (4th round and later) talent.
The fact that this happens shows us that Detroit does get lucky when they draft. If they were drafting logically, they would take their Zetterbergs and Datsyuks before their Jari Tolsas and Andrei Maximenkos. Would it make sense to take the best talent before other teams snatch them up?
Yes Detroit does sometimes get good talent in the bleakest parts of the draft, but that shouldn't be something they should be proud of.
hmm, so just to get this straight

detroits drafts have been so successful and translated into so much on ice success - to the point where they pick very late in the first round where they take players in demand and have had middling results in the early rounds which still surpasses our draft record which includes much earlier picks,

somehow this means our draft record isnt that bad even though they destroy us in the latter rounds


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04-17-2012, 12:24 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
hmm, so just to get this straight

detroits drafts have been so successful and translated into so much on ice success - to the point where they pick very late in the first round where they take players in demand and have had middling results in the early rounds which still surpasses our draft record which includes much earlier picks,

somehow this means our draft record isnt that bad even though they destroy us in the latter rounds

Isn't it amazing that of all the 29 you could have chosen, you picked Detroit, a team that is well-known for its player development. :rollseyes:

If you have a culture of winning and put players in spots where they'll succeed, you can end up just like Detroit. The point that was being made is that the leafs are still one of the better drafting teams in the league.

Had the leafs not thrown away their futures for quick fixes, we might have seen a better crop of players today.

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04-17-2012, 12:33 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
so hard to know where to start, and this is such an easy fight i dont want to be a bully or rely too much on hindsight

so ill try to play fair and ill just start by pointing to early round picks the leafs made where our guy went on to have no nhl career or nothing special and another team took a player closely thereafter - who HOPEFULLY was on our radar - and the other team's pick went on to have a great or at least significant nhl career, and ill go back to 89 and stop at 2000 so we can properly evaluate a player's career

remember this is just one way to measure things, it has weaknesses, but it does show how we CONSISTENTLY pick the wrong player

so lets see, 1989 we take steve bancroft 21st overall over adam foote who is picked next

1990, berehowsky 10th overall over keith tkachuk 19th, marty brodeur 20th

92, convery 8th over sergei gonchar @ 14th

93, landon wilson 19th over todd bertuzzi picked 23rd

94, eric fichaud 14th over partik elias 51st

95, jeff ware 15th over petr sykora 18th

96, marek posymk 36th overall over zdeno chara @ 56th

98, petr svoboda 35th over brad richards 64th

99, luca cereda 24th over martin havlat 26th

00, kris vernansky 51st over anotine vermette 55th

anyway this is just for starters, i could go on and on
So the other teams that also passed up on these players get a free pass? Instead of going on and on and further showing us your incompetence, you should stop while you're behind.

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04-17-2012, 01:20 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Leafmon1 View Post
I did not know that, where is the time machine?

Not busting - Lucic would have made an awesome Leaf, truculence Burkie - rt there...
I would trade ANY player in our organization straight up for Lucic.

FACT

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04-17-2012, 02:51 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
if you seriously want to get into this i will, but i cant tell if you are serious so i'll be brief

if i were to make a list of leafs draft busts and line them up against wings draft gems i think we all know the wings gems would be better than every single leafs bust

but look at your lists

detroit "bust" martin lapointe, at 991 has more career games to his name than every single leafs "gem" pick you listed

did you ever see lapointe play? i mean granted he was not the same type of player as kovalev, but if youre trying to compare this to taking tlusty over giroux its a bit weak to be polite ... by the way in this same "bust" detroit draft year they took knuble (over 1000 games to his name) and chris osgood who might have trouble hearing your argument, you see, he has multiple stanley cup rings in his ears

and keith primeau is a bust? did i read this right? not even going to go there suffice to say anyone would see this as ridiculous

but like you said youre not defending the leafs draft record ... were you trying to be sarcastic?

maybe we shouldnt go on about this too much in case a wings fan reads it, that would be embarassing for all of us

I wasn't saying those players were busts, I was saying there were better players on the board.

I just did the exact same thing you did. You took Leafs players, then said players that we could/should have taken instead of them. Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20 and foresight is pretty close to impossible without esp.

The Leafs drafting is mediocre, that's my point. The way you went around proving that they are "terrible" was stupid.

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04-17-2012, 04:35 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by AmazedRink View Post
lol hilarious absolutely no credit has been given to JFJ for this move. I'll give it to him, not bad.
huh? Burke has given JFJ credit for Reimer as well as others every chance he gets. Holzer not so much but he also hasn't cracked the lineup as a regular yet. Holzer should be on the team but it's tough to justify it with some of the contracts we have on the backend.

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04-17-2012, 08:36 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
hmm, so just to get this straight
No, you keep getting it wrong.

Nobody is saying we're "better" at drafting than Detroit or we had a great draft track record in that awesome 1990s period you're suggesting. What we're saying is that we sucked just as much as Detroit and just about every other team at drafting talent in the first two rounds, so we're no worse than other teams in aggregate.

For whatever reason, you've continually tried to spin this into a "Toronto drafts great" argument and then tried to LOLOLOL your way out of any discussion or "rational debate". You've been provided specific examples of other teams making the same mistakes that Toronto made in the rounds you selected -- including Detroit -- and subsequently went on to point out a plethora of guys selected in the third round and beyond that were passed over in the first two rounds by every team that had a pick in those years -- including Detroit -- as examples of how much better Detroit (and, apparently since you've never addressed it directly, every other team) are at drafting in the early rounds when compared to Toronto.

Again: l2p, or troll harder.

Edit: Furthermore, Detroit's drafting record sucked from 1980-1988 and again from 1992-1997, but you pointed out 1989-1991 as representative some paragon of drafting excellence, so you're not exactly playing "seriously" either.

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04-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
then we took kulemin over milan lucic in the second round that year
I just died a little inside.

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04-17-2012, 02:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by jtmoney67 View Post
I would trade ANY player in our organization straight up for Lucic.

FACT
even Jake Gardiner?

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04-17-2012, 06:46 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Espher View Post
Edit: Furthermore, Detroit's drafting record sucked from 1980-1988 and again from 1992-1997, but you pointed out 1989-1991 as representative some paragon of drafting excellence, so you're not exactly playing "seriously" either.
just so everybody knows i dont have two accounts and post as Espher in order to make myself look like a genius, i have just been lucky enough to find the perfect foil of uninformed opinion to make my point

so i am no longer arguing with espher, i just write this to keep things real in case somebody who read the quoted passage actually believed espher had looked something up before s/he gave her opinion

"detroit's draft record from 92-97 sucked"

darren mccarty 758 gp
dan mcgillis 634 gp
anders ericksson 572 gp
tomas holmstrom 1026 gp
mathieu dandenault 868 gp

suffice to say that record of producing longevity would mark the best 5 years of leafs drafting in the last 3 decades

"detroit's draft record from 1980 - 88 sucked"

this statement was breathtakingly uninformed as its clear that if the leafs had made these picks it would represent the golden age of leaf drafting since there was a draft

first off, things got so bad in 1983 they drafted HHOF inductee (2009) steve yzerman (and in 89 future HHOF inductee nicklas lidstrom but i guess thats why you cherry picked and left out 1989).

not to mention detroit also drafted from 80-88 bob probert (935gp), petr klima (786gp) joey kocur (821 gp), stu grimson (729 gp), shawn burr (878 gp), doug houda (569 gp), randy mckay (932 gp), steve chiasson (751 gp), joe murphy (779 gp), adam graves (1152 gp), johan garpenlov (606 gp), tim cheveldae (over 300 starts as a goalie).


its like shooting fish in a barrel folks

thanks for comin out espher, i couldnt have made my case better without you!

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04-20-2012, 06:02 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
if you seriously want to get into this i will, but i cant tell if you are serious so i'll be brief

if i were to make a list of leafs draft busts and line them up against wings draft gems i think we all know the wings gems would be better than every single leafs bust

but look at your lists

detroit "bust" martin lapointe, at 991 has more career games to his name than every single leafs "gem" pick you listed

did you ever see lapointe play? i mean granted he was not the same type of player as kovalev, but if youre trying to compare this to taking tlusty over giroux its a bit weak to be polite ... by the way in this same "bust" detroit draft year they took knuble (over 1000 games to his name) and chris osgood who might have trouble hearing your argument, you see, he has multiple stanley cup rings in his ears

and keith primeau is a bust? did i read this right? not even going to go there suffice to say anyone would see this as ridiculous

but like you said youre not defending the leafs draft record ... were you trying to be sarcastic?

maybe we shouldnt go on about this too much in case a wings fan reads it, that would be embarassing for all of us

It's pretty amazing how easily you miss the point. Pretty sure the point wasn't that Lapointe or Primeau are busts but more that Detroit passed up on much better players (Jagr and Kovalev) to take them instead which shows they are just as prone to making mistakes as anyone else.

I'm sure you'll miss my point as well.

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04-20-2012, 07:17 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
its like shooting fish in a barrel folks

thanks for comin out espher, i couldnt have made my case better without you!
If the metric is now suddenly guys with a bunch of NHL games played, then Toronto's drafting is no longer as bad as you put it.

In 1992, Detroit got a fantastic grinder in Darren McCarty in the second round, and another in Dan McGillis (in a case of a tenth rounder that bloomed), but blew NINE OTHER PICKS, including their first rounder. Prior to selecting Darren McCarty, they could have also had Mike Peca, Valeri Bure, Grant Marshall, Igor Korolev, or say Sergei Brylin with their late first rounder, instead of a bust. Between that and McGillis, they missed out on Manny Fernandez, Robert Svehla, Jere Lehtinen, Matthew Barnaby, Marcus Ragnarsson, Adrian Aucoin, Ian Laperriere, Stephane Yelle, Nikolai Khabibulin, Anson Carter, etc.

In 1993, Detroit picked up Anders Eriksson -- a guy who played most of his NHL career not with Detroit -- but could have had Todd Bertuzzi with the next pick. Prior to their second round pick, players they missed out on include Jay Pandolfo, Jamie Langenbrunner, Janne Niinimaa, Brendan Morrison, Bryan McCabe, or Kevin Weekes (more starts than Cheveldae!). Eleven other picks brought nothing, and they missed out on Vaclav Prospal, Marek Malik, Jamal Mayers, Eric Daze, Miroslav Satan, Tommy Salo, Darcy Tucker, Patrick Lalime, Todd Marchant, Andrew Brunette, Manny Legace, Pavol Demitra, and Kimmo Timonen.

But let's look at one of their better years in this stretch.

In 1983, a year where Detroit picked up a lot of good players, they picked Steve Yzerman 4th overall, Lane Lambert (<300g) 25th overall, Bob Probert 46th overall, Petr Klima 86th overall, Joe Kocur 88th, and Stu Grimson 186th. They only missed with seven picks this year, which makes for a pretty good ratio. You'll find no argument from me about Yzerman at 4 -- Cam Neely is the only other guy after him that I'd have even considered. Between 25th and 46th, they only missed out on Claude Lemieux and Peter Zezel (still no complaints about taking Probert). Between 46th and 86th/88th they only missed out on Bob Essensa (446 GP), Daren Puppa (429 GP), John Kordic, and Esa Tikkanen. Between 88th and 186th, they only missed out Garry Galley, Kevin Stevens, Rick Tocchet, Christian Ruutu, Vladislav Tretiak (), and Viacheslav Fetisov (later got him for a 3rd rounder). With the Grimson pick, they could have instead selected Dominik Hasek (later cost them Kozlov and a 1st). With the later picks that didn't pan out, they also missed out on Uwe Krupp, Alexei Kasatonov, and Sergei Makarov.

The same can be said for each other year in this period -- I checked more than just Detroit's list of picks before making the statement I made. For example, you note that they picked Joe Murphy (779 GP, 233/295:528) first overall in 1986 (actually, you don't mention that he went first overall). What you don't mention is that he only played 85 games of that career with Detroit, where he put up 31 points, and blossomed in Chicago. You also don't mention anyone selected after him of note -- such as, say, Jimmy Carson (2nd; 626 GP, 275/286:561, including 240 GP, 100/102:202 with Detroit), or Vincent Damphousse (6th, 1378 GP, 432/773:1205), Brian Leetch (9th, 1205 GP, 247/781:1028), Adam Graves (who, admittedly, Detroit got with their second rounder, but who only played 78 games of his 1152 in Detroit), Teppo Numminen (29th, 1372 GP, 117/520:637), Rob Brown (67th, 543 GP, 190/248:438), or even Ron Tugnutt (more starts than Cheveldae!).

Again -- using the definition of "terrible" you used to describe Toronto's drafting record -- Detroit was terrible from 80-88, and 92-97, especially in early rounds. You can keep trying to move the goalposts all you want, but maybe if you corrected your pants-on-head retarded standard for drafting, you wouldn't have to. Personally, I stand by the statements I made, even after your "rebuttal".

Edit: As for why I left out 1989, it wasn't because of Lidstrom, but because you specifically singled out 1989-1991. I was talking about the years surrounding that period (and I stopped at 1997 because your previous discussion of 'awesome years' was from 1998 on, before you try to spin some magical ****ing conspiracy theory about that too).


Last edited by Espher: 04-20-2012 at 10:23 AM.
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Old
04-20-2012, 10:01 AM
  #90
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huh? Burke has given JFJ credit for Reimer as well as others every chance he gets. Holzer not so much but he also hasn't cracked the lineup as a regular yet. Holzer should be on the team but it's tough to justify it with some of the contracts we have on the backend.
yes, burke has given credit for him, that wasn't what I was noting, just that a whole page went by and not a mention of JFJ by the posters. lol

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04-20-2012, 10:30 AM
  #91
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And your argument about Detroit being the best drafting team is moot because those picks (datsyuk and zetterberg) were lucky! Had they known they would be that good they would have picked them higher!
This is where youre wrong. No one besides Detroit scouted Datsyuk and Detriot knew this, why would they waste a high pick on him? Detroit discovered Alex Edler the same way, but when Detroits scout Andersson told him to get an agent, other teams took notice right before the draft where Vancouver traded up to get him. Detroit took Franzen instead 2 picks later.

Teams put value on picks, even though they thought Datsyuk was great they knew he would be there so they wouldnt use a high pick on him. Thats just asset management.

As for drafting Primeau over Jagr, Jagr would have went first overall but no one knew for sure if he could get out of the Czech Republic to play or not so he fell.

Overall, Detroits drafting has been much better than Toronto's. Every team misses on guys but Nashville and Detroit have had too many good players pan out from later rounds to say its luck. I think they are easily the best 2 drafting teams in the NHL

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04-20-2012, 10:32 AM
  #92
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Credit goes to Dave Morrison, he had pretty high sentiments on Reimer and probably warranted the trade down. I initially didn't respect Morrison, but he has a pretty good track record at finding gems in the later rounds.
Now if only he could find gems in the first round.

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04-20-2012, 11:34 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
This is where youre wrong. No one besides Detroit scouted Datsyuk and Detriot knew this, why would they waste a high pick on him? Detroit discovered Alex Edler the same way, but when Detroits scout Andersson told him to get an agent, other teams took notice right before the draft where Vancouver traded up to get him. Detroit took Franzen instead 2 picks later.

Teams put value on picks, even though they thought Datsyuk was great they knew he would be there so they wouldnt use a high pick on him. Thats just asset management.

As for drafting Primeau over Jagr, Jagr would have went first overall but no one knew for sure if he could get out of the Czech Republic to play or not so he fell.

Overall, Detroits drafting has been much better than Toronto's. Every team misses on guys but Nashville and Detroit have had too many good players pan out from later rounds to say its luck. I think they are easily the best 2 drafting teams in the NHL
I don't think you can really argue that Detroit could see Datsyuk being THAT good.

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04-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #94
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I don't think you can really argue that Detroit could see Datsyuk being THAT good.
Late round picks are nothing but projects. The higher rated the prospect, the higher the pick that is used. Quite simply, if detroit thought either of these guys (zet & dat) were going to 100% end up being stars, they would have used their earlier round draft picks and would not have risked losing them to other teams.

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04-20-2012, 01:05 PM
  #95
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This is where youre wrong. No one besides Detroit scouted Datsyuk and Detriot knew this, why would they waste a high pick on him? Detroit discovered Alex Edler the same way, but when Detroits scout Andersson told him to get an agent, other teams took notice right before the draft where Vancouver traded up to get him. Detroit took Franzen instead 2 picks later.

Teams put value on picks, even though they thought Datsyuk was great they knew he would be there so they wouldnt use a high pick on him. Thats just asset management.

As for drafting Primeau over Jagr, Jagr would have went first overall but no one knew for sure if he could get out of the Czech Republic to play or not so he fell.

Overall, Detroits drafting has been much better than Toronto's. Every team misses on guys but Nashville and Detroit have had too many good players pan out from later rounds to say its luck. I think they are easily the best 2 drafting teams in the NHL

There is absolutely no way for an organization to know if other teams are scouting the same players. That information is completely confidential. Why would any organization want to tip their hat?

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04-20-2012, 01:59 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
There is absolutely no way for an organization to know if other teams are scouting the same players. That information is completely confidential. Why would any organization want to tip their hat?

From what I heard, Datsuyk was playing in some small time league, he was tiny and not standing out due to being a late bloomer physically. Detroit got lucky n found him and thought if he got bigger he could be good. I doubt even they knew how great he could be.

However what you fail to realize... For every Datsuyk there are a hundred guys that teams think could be steals who just never put it together. The draft is a crap shot outside of the top few pics.. at 18 half these kids look so similar its what happens post draft that matters. Torontos issues have been because they always traded there draft choices away and nevee developed their own pics. They relied of free agency to restock the team.

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04-20-2012, 02:54 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by DirtyDion03 View Post
I don't think you can really argue that Detroit could see Datsyuk being THAT good.
No but there arent a lot of players that become that good at all. They knew he had a **** load of talent though, and thought he could become a good player

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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
There is absolutely no way for an organization to know if other teams are scouting the same players. That information is completely confidential. Why would any organization want to tip their hat?
As a wings fan I think I would know and I'm not going to type out the whole story but this is the jist.

Datsyuk played hockey in Siberia, was passed over in his first draft year when Andersson scouted him for Detroit. He liked what he saw and thought he had amazing hands but wasnt sure on the rest of his game.

He was supposed to fly out to watch another game, and there was a blues scout on the flight with him but the flight was cancelled because of a snow storm. Back then it was different and yes they were certain no one had interest in him. Scouting in Europe was different back then, espcially with Siberia being virtually unscouted

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04-20-2012, 03:50 PM
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That's a really good find bud

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04-20-2012, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Datsyuk played hockey in Siberia, was passed over in his first draft year when Andersson scouted him for Detroit. He liked what he saw and thought he had amazing hands but wasnt sure on the rest of his game.

He was supposed to fly out to watch another game, and there was a blues scout on the flight with him but the flight was cancelled because of a snow storm. Back then it was different and yes they were certain no one had interest in him. Scouting in Europe was different back then, espcially with Siberia being virtually unscouted
"The boy “with the twitchy walk” caught Krikunov's eye—not on the ice but on the soccer field, where Pavel’s anticipation, vision and intelligence was more obvious. Under Krikunov, Pavel developed into an efficient two-way player and began to draw wider attention among Russian hockey aficianados. Still, he went unpicked in the 1996 and 1997 NHL drafts.

After his 18th birthday, Pavel was signed to a professional contract by Spartak of the Russian Super League (RSL). The teams in the RSL represent a belt of cities throughout Russia and can be loosely compared to an elongated representation of the Minnesota Iron Range or other U.S. hockey hotbeds. After one season with Spartak, Pavel moved to Dynamo Yekaterinburg for the ’97-’98 season.

During that summer, Hakan Andersson, the Red Wings' Director of European Scouting, was sent to evaluate a player on the opposite side of the ice from Pavel and his team. Andersson reported back to the franchise that the "little guy from the other team" was worth seeing a second time. He had compared Pavel’s playmaking skills with another Russian superstar, Igor Larionov. But a storm cancelled Andersson’s flight, causing him to miss his chance to see Pavel again.

The Red Wings remained intrigued. They took a long look at Pvael ’s accomplishments, considered Andersson's review, and eventually picked him in the sixth round (171st overall) in the 1998 draft. Pavel did not report to Detroit immediately. In fact, he played five seasons in the RSL for the different teams. In 134 games (including the playoffs), he scored 30 goals. Pavel ended his RSL career with highly regarded Ak Bars Kazan in 2000–01. During this time, Pavel met and married his wife Svetlana."

http://www.jockbio.com/Bios/Datsyuk/Datsyuk_bio.html

c/d?

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04-21-2012, 05:00 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espher View Post
If the metric is now suddenly guys with a bunch of NHL games played, then Toronto's drafting is no longer as bad as you put it.

In 1992, Detroit got a fantastic grinder in Darren McCarty in the second round, and another in Dan McGillis (in a case of a tenth rounder that bloomed), but blew NINE OTHER PICKS, including their first rounder. Prior to selecting Darren McCarty, they could have also had Mike Peca, Valeri Bure, Grant Marshall, Igor Korolev, or say Sergei Brylin with their late first rounder, instead of a bust. Between that and McGillis, they missed out on Manny Fernandez, Robert Svehla, Jere Lehtinen, Matthew Barnaby, Marcus Ragnarsson, Adrian Aucoin, Ian Laperriere, Stephane Yelle, Nikolai Khabibulin, Anson Carter, etc.

In 1993, Detroit picked up Anders Eriksson -- a guy who played most of his NHL career not with Detroit -- but could have had Todd Bertuzzi with the next pick. Prior to their second round pick, players they missed out on include Jay Pandolfo, Jamie Langenbrunner, Janne Niinimaa, Brendan Morrison, Bryan McCabe, or Kevin Weekes (more starts than Cheveldae!). Eleven other picks brought nothing, and they missed out on Vaclav Prospal, Marek Malik, Jamal Mayers, Eric Daze, Miroslav Satan, Tommy Salo, Darcy Tucker, Patrick Lalime, Todd Marchant, Andrew Brunette, Manny Legace, Pavol Demitra, and Kimmo Timonen.

But let's look at one of their better years in this stretch.

In 1983, a year where Detroit picked up a lot of good players, they picked Steve Yzerman 4th overall, Lane Lambert (<300g) 25th overall, Bob Probert 46th overall, Petr Klima 86th overall, Joe Kocur 88th, and Stu Grimson 186th. They only missed with seven picks this year, which makes for a pretty good ratio. You'll find no argument from me about Yzerman at 4 -- Cam Neely is the only other guy after him that I'd have even considered. Between 25th and 46th, they only missed out on Claude Lemieux and Peter Zezel (still no complaints about taking Probert). Between 46th and 86th/88th they only missed out on Bob Essensa (446 GP), Daren Puppa (429 GP), John Kordic, and Esa Tikkanen. Between 88th and 186th, they only missed out Garry Galley, Kevin Stevens, Rick Tocchet, Christian Ruutu, Vladislav Tretiak (), and Viacheslav Fetisov (later got him for a 3rd rounder). With the Grimson pick, they could have instead selected Dominik Hasek (later cost them Kozlov and a 1st). With the later picks that didn't pan out, they also missed out on Uwe Krupp, Alexei Kasatonov, and Sergei Makarov.

The same can be said for each other year in this period -- I checked more than just Detroit's list of picks before making the statement I made. For example, you note that they picked Joe Murphy (779 GP, 233/295:528) first overall in 1986 (actually, you don't mention that he went first overall). What you don't mention is that he only played 85 games of that career with Detroit, where he put up 31 points, and blossomed in Chicago. You also don't mention anyone selected after him of note -- such as, say, Jimmy Carson (2nd; 626 GP, 275/286:561, including 240 GP, 100/102:202 with Detroit), or Vincent Damphousse (6th, 1378 GP, 432/773:1205), Brian Leetch (9th, 1205 GP, 247/781:1028), Adam Graves (who, admittedly, Detroit got with their second rounder, but who only played 78 games of his 1152 in Detroit), Teppo Numminen (29th, 1372 GP, 117/520:637), Rob Brown (67th, 543 GP, 190/248:438), or even Ron Tugnutt (more starts than Cheveldae!).

Again -- using the definition of "terrible" you used to describe Toronto's drafting record -- Detroit was terrible from 80-88, and 92-97, especially in early rounds. You can keep trying to move the goalposts all you want, but maybe if you corrected your pants-on-head retarded standard for drafting, you wouldn't have to. Personally, I stand by the statements I made, even after your "rebuttal".

Edit: As for why I left out 1989, it wasn't because of Lidstrom, but because you specifically singled out 1989-1991. I was talking about the years surrounding that period (and I stopped at 1997 because your previous discussion of 'awesome years' was from 1998 on, before you try to spin some magical ****ing conspiracy theory about that too).
let me summarize your response with a picture...




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