HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > San Jose Sharks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Fire Wilson and McLellan?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-17-2012, 11:17 PM
  #226
MadmanSJ
Know Your Onion!
 
MadmanSJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 1,317
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroDan View Post

Go Sharks, this ain't over, still a LOT of hockey left.
I can get behind that! I am way more optimistic about this team when they aren't actually playing.

When they are playing I often times want to gouge out my eyeballs.

MadmanSJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:26 PM
  #227
Gilligans Island
Registered User
 
Gilligans Island's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SF/Bay Area
Posts: 7,951
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroDan View Post
Do you think the Blues aren't? You think those goals don't matter? We've proven that Elliot isn't Roy or Hasek. I didn't see them lay down, I saw SJ actually try, with White as the spark!

Go Sharks, this ain't over, still a LOT of hockey left.
Hey, I'm with you in spirit absolutely. My heart bleeds Sharks but my head says fool my once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me...

Gilligans Island is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:30 PM
  #228
TheJuxtaposer
#Shorks
 
TheJuxtaposer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 26,383
vCash: 567
I'd bring back Carle in an instant. But I assume there's a reason why he was shipped out, so maybe Management doesn't like him. I don't know.

TheJuxtaposer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:37 PM
  #229
Gobabygo
Registered User
 
Gobabygo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 163
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
You don't fire both from a 2x conf finalist that has had 1 off year in which they still made the playoffs. That's overstating the problem. The problem is one of two things, either the system is making players look better than they are, or the the lack of talent is holding back the system. I don't think it's players work either or them all having an off year simultaneously.

Personally, I look at the pieces to this team and believe it should be a top 4 NHL team. To me, the sharks lack the following:
  • An effective PK. With winnik, pavelski, vlasic, etc, plus the amount of passes through the heart of the PK that lead to backdoor goals, this is a system problem. (McLellan)
  • An effective Zone entry. With Boyle/Burns, Thornton/Couture/Marleau/Havlat, the Sharks should be able to enter the opposing zone or dump it in more often than turning it over. Instead, you see every single 3on2 or 2on2 zone entry curl high at the blue line and at best, lose the rush, at worst lose the zone and a turnover headed the other way. (McLellan mostly, partly for DW only having a million slow centermen on every line)
  • A difficult team to play against. You know what? The Sharks are soft. Losing Setoguchi and McGinn has destroyed any pressure the Sharks used to put on defensemen. The forecheck is weak because no opponents worry about avoiding a body check or being forced to protect the puck rather than advance it because a check is incoming. This is on both (McLellan for muzzling Clowe, Wilson for trading McGinn and for not replacing Setoguchi's checking). The Sharks are an easy team to shut down.
  • Rewarding the wrong behaviors. I'm really sick of every time the Sharks lose, they point to a hot goalie or bad bounces. It's not that. The system generates shots but not scoring chances, and gives up few shots but lots of high quality chances. This is a system that creates a red herring crutch of "oh we outshot them, we just got unlucky." Bull. It's a flawed system (McLellan).
  • Inability to adjust. McLellan is consistently out-coached both mid-game and mid-series. This is just my opinion, but I feel coaches that can adjust, such as Hitchcock, are better suited to success. It took Hitchcock a few months to realize he needed to stack his powerplay with R/R and L/L shots. McLellan took a full year to realize the 1-2-1 PK was a moronic idea. He still hasn't figured out that an NHL PK actually needs to stop the cross-ice pass to the backdoor. Wonder when that light-bulb will go on. (McLellan)

IMO, McLellan's got a lot of work to do. This is a roster that should be a WCF team, or at worst a 2nd round exit. A 7th seed and 1st round exit with this amount of talent is not acceptable. Sadly, I think he's incapable of change. A top-tier assistant coach, but possibly a bottom-3rd head coach.

Thank you for putting into words, what I am thinking. *high-five*

Gobabygo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:37 PM
  #230
Winky
Registered User
 
Winky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 3,279
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'd bring back Carle in an instant. But I assume there's a reason why he was shipped out, so maybe Management doesn't like him. I don't know.
He was shipped out because we needed a defenseman who, at the time, had already hit his peak ... we were looking more short-term than long-term.

I'd be surprised if there were any other issues with Carle at that time.

Winky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2012, 11:46 PM
  #231
LeeIFBB
Teflon Doug
 
LeeIFBB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Tanning Bed
Posts: 1,482
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I'd keep Winnik and Winchester. Let the other UFA's go. I would start the season with the goalies we have minus Niemi and if the team has issues in net yet are still decent enough to be a playoff team, I'd make a move for one but not until they've basically played themselves out of the role. Bring in Brad Stuart. Buy out Handzus. I don't see a real need to go out and bring in new bottom six players. I'd rather see what we got in Winnik, Winchester, Desi, Wingels, Galiardi, and Sheppard before making any additions. If they can swap Clowe into a quick top six player, it would help overall.
It seems like that would be more of a when the team has issues.

LeeIFBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 01:43 AM
  #232
Pinkfloyd
Registered User
 
Pinkfloyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Roseville
Country: United States
Posts: 32,130
vCash: 2283
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Not Carle. They need some speed from the defense. Speed + Skill beats skill.
Speed isn't just in how fast a player skates but how fast a player plays the puck. Matt Carle is a skill player that plays fast. That's what this team needs to be going towards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
I'd bring back Carle in an instant. But I assume there's a reason why he was shipped out, so maybe Management doesn't like him. I don't know.
He was sent out because they got Boyle in the deal. That only shows his value when he is asked for in a big deal like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeIFBB View Post
It seems like that would be more of a when the team has issues.
Not likely but it's possible. The potential issues in net couldn't be any worse than the issues in net that the team had this year. People need to stop underestimating Greiss and the younger goalies in the system simply because they haven't seen them in the role so they're still unknown.

Pinkfloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 02:26 AM
  #233
lsx
Registered User
 
lsx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Sonoma County, CA
Posts: 2,946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
You don't fire both from a 2x conf finalist that has had 1 off year in which they still made the playoffs. That's overstating the problem. The problem is one of two things, either the system is making players look better than they are, or the the lack of talent is holding back the system. I don't think it's players work either or them all having an off year simultaneously.

Personally, I look at the pieces to this team and believe it should be a top 4 NHL team. To me, the sharks lack the following:
  • An effective PK. With winnik, pavelski, vlasic, etc, plus the amount of passes through the heart of the PK that lead to backdoor goals, this is a system problem. (McLellan)
  • An effective Zone entry. With Boyle/Burns, Thornton/Couture/Marleau/Havlat, the Sharks should be able to enter the opposing zone or dump it in more often than turning it over. Instead, you see every single 3on2 or 2on2 zone entry curl high at the blue line and at best, lose the rush, at worst lose the zone and a turnover headed the other way. (McLellan mostly, partly for DW only having a million slow centermen on every line)
  • A difficult team to play against. You know what? The Sharks are soft. Losing Setoguchi and McGinn has destroyed any pressure the Sharks used to put on defensemen. The forecheck is weak because no opponents worry about avoiding a body check or being forced to protect the puck rather than advance it because a check is incoming. This is on both (McLellan for muzzling Clowe, Wilson for trading McGinn and for not replacing Setoguchi's checking). The Sharks are an easy team to shut down.
  • Rewarding the wrong behaviors. I'm really sick of every time the Sharks lose, they point to a hot goalie or bad bounces. It's not that. The system generates shots but not scoring chances, and gives up few shots but lots of high quality chances. This is a system that creates a red herring crutch of "oh we outshot them, we just got unlucky." Bull. It's a flawed system (McLellan).
  • Inability to adjust. McLellan is consistently out-coached both mid-game and mid-series. This is just my opinion, but I feel coaches that can adjust, such as Hitchcock, are better suited to success. It took Hitchcock a few months to realize he needed to stack his powerplay with R/R and L/L shots. McLellan took a full year to realize the 1-2-1 PK was a moronic idea. He still hasn't figured out that an NHL PK actually needs to stop the cross-ice pass to the backdoor. Wonder when that light-bulb will go on. (McLellan)

IMO, McLellan's got a lot of work to do. This is a roster that should be a WCF team, or at worst a 2nd round exit. A 7th seed and 1st round exit with this amount of talent is not acceptable. Sadly, I think he's incapable of change. A top-tier assistant coach, but possibly a bottom-3rd head coach.
Missed this one, perfect.

lsx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 04:26 AM
  #234
lobsters
Registered User
 
lobsters's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: the interwebs
Posts: 214
vCash: 500
team that got into the playoffs pretty much all of the last decade struggling post-season? fire the GM.

team that became president's trophy winners the first year the new coach took position not winning a stanley cup? fire the coach.

i hate to be a jerk, but every fan that drools over the possibility for a lucrative post-season for a stanley cup victory in this town or fanbase should realize that more years than not we've been playoff contenders more than tried and true canadian teams that are historically more in debt to a franchise than we are.

lobsters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 06:01 AM
  #235
wtfisthis
Registered User
 
wtfisthis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by lobsters View Post
team that got into the playoffs pretty much all of the last decade struggling post-season? fire the GM.

team that became president's trophy winners the first year the new coach took position not winning a stanley cup? fire the coach.

i hate to be a jerk, but every fan that drools over the possibility for a lucrative post-season for a stanley cup victory in this town or fanbase should realize that more years than not we've been playoff contenders more than tried and true canadian teams that are historically more in debt to a franchise than we are.
Thats not the point. You cant just look at results, you have to look at the bigger picture. They both have major flaws that is preventing this team to take the next step towards the cup. Just going off this season is enough reason to want to fire them. From the horrible trades DW made to the subpar coaching job by the coaching staff, something needs to change. This team is so close yet so far from winning the cup, its a very frustrating feeling. With a few good moves, this team can definitely win the cup, but they seem to be unable to take that next step for some reason.

I know they're perennial playoff contenders, but how much longer can they keep this up? How much more can DW dry up the prospect pool with no cup wins (or even SCF appearances) to show for it? How much longer can McLellan keep relying on the declining stars of the team and fail to show the ability to adapt?

Bottom line is that something needs to change, or else this team is a future bottom feeder waiting to happen.


Last edited by wtfisthis: 04-18-2012 at 06:08 AM.
wtfisthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 06:46 AM
  #236
lobsters
Registered User
 
lobsters's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: the interwebs
Posts: 214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfisthis View Post
Thats not the point. You cant just look at results, you have to look at the bigger picture. They both have major flaws that is preventing this team to take the next step towards the cup. Just going off this season is enough reason to want to fire them. From the horrible trades DW made to the subpar coaching job by the coaching staff, something needs to change. This team is so close yet so far from winning the cup, its a very frustrating feeling. With a few good moves, this team can definitely win the cup, but they seem to be unable to take that next step for some reason.

I know they're perennial playoff contenders, but how much longer can they keep this up? How much more can DW dry up the prospect pool with no cup wins (or even SCF appearances) to show for it? How much longer can McLellan keep relying on the declining stars of the team and fail to show the ability to adapt?

Bottom line is that something needs to change, or else this team is a future bottom feeder waiting to happen.

i'll be a lot more comfortable talking about the off-season when we're past the post season. i acknowledge and agree that there's been a decline in the current top salary talent though. fans need to rally for this team though, they still have a fighting chance!

lobsters is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 11:51 AM
  #237
SharksFailToClear
Registered User
 
SharksFailToClear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 146
vCash: 500
I find myself agreeing with a lot of the sentiment here, the PK and failure to adjust strategy mid series being the most unforgivable, but I was just thinking about the red wings last night watching that game.

The wings lost to the sharks the last two seasons in the playoffs and it seems very possible they are out in the first round this year. Yes, people acknowledge they have an aging core, but nobody labels them chokers or calls for the firing of babcock. Instead people still believe he is one of the best coaches in the world.

Last night he pulled the same, "but we outplayed them", move in explaining away the loss. They put up 40+ shots on goal and ended up with 1 goal.

I guess I should read the red wings board before speaking, but yeah, why the free pass for the wings if Mclellan's and DW's two straight conference finals are such a disappointment?

SharksFailToClear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 11:57 AM
  #238
wtfisthis
Registered User
 
wtfisthis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharksFailToClear View Post
I find myself agreeing with a lot of the sentiment here, the PK and failure to adjust strategy mid series being the most unforgivable, but I was just thinking about the red wings last night watching that game.

The wings lost to the sharks the last two seasons in the playoffs and it seems very possible they are out in the first round this year. Yes, people acknowledge they have an aging core, but nobody labels them chokers or calls for the firing of babcock. Instead people still believe he is one of the best coaches in the world.

Last night he pulled the same, "but we outplayed them", move in explaining away the loss. They put up 40+ shots on goal and ended up with 1 goal.

I guess I should read the red wings board before speaking, but yeah, why the free pass for the wings if Mclellan's and DW's two straight conference finals are such a disappointment?
Well, Babcock has won a cup and he has been to the SCF multiple times. McLellan has done neither....yet. But Babcock has been a head coach 3 times longer than McLellan has so maybe he deserves a little more time.

wtfisthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 11:59 AM
  #239
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,429
vCash: 500
FYI, the Ducks won the cup without a ton of team speed.

Sharks were plenty fast in previous years, with JT. In 06 and 07 for sure...

OrrNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 12:04 PM
  #240
wtfisthis
Registered User
 
wtfisthis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 2,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
FYI, the Ducks won the cup without a ton of team speed.
Having Pronger and Niedermayer doesnt hurt.

wtfisthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 12:05 PM
  #241
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
FYI, the Ducks won the cup without a ton of team speed.

Sharks were plenty fast in previous years, with JT. In 06 and 07 for sure...
Ducks did it with two masters of stretch (substitute speed of play rather than speed of feet) and AndyMac and Teemu aren't exactly slowsters.

Sharks team speed fell off when Michalek went. Their speed of play fell off with TM who emphasized possession. Detroit has played a slow game for a long time, but they have also gone more and more to the speed substitute of stretching in recent years.

When I say stretching, it isn't just deflecting a puck into the zone. It is frequently catching a long pass and carrying the line.

SJeasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 12:50 PM
  #242
OrrNumber4
Registered User
 
OrrNumber4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Country: Switzerland
Posts: 7,429
vCash: 500
Some blame should fall on DW in that he outlined certain goals for the year, and failed to meet them.

OrrNumber4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 01:01 PM
  #243
Kitten Mittons
Registered User
 
Kitten Mittons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco
Country: Armenia
Posts: 47,551
vCash: 500
This should've been our roster this year (or scratch Winnik/Galiardi and replace him with Ginner/Mitchell; I do like Winnik though, just not as much as Ginner)

Marleau-Thornton-Wingels
Clowe-Couture-Havlat
Wellwood-Pavelski-Winnik
Eager-Desjardins-Galiardi
Winchester-Mitchell-Ferriero

Vlasic-Boyle
Murray-Burns
Braun-I. White
Demers-Vandermeer

I just can't blame DW for trading for Moore because it WAS a good trade; although I know he was expecting a playoff performer because of that flukey year in Tampa.

Kitten Mittons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 01:09 PM
  #244
Nighthock
**** the Kings...
 
Nighthock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Reno, NV
Country: United States
Posts: 15,814
vCash: 163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trojan35 View Post
IMO, McLellan's got a lot of work to do. This is a roster that should be a WCF team, or at worst a 2nd round exit. A 7th seed and 1st round exit with this amount of talent is not acceptable. Sadly, I think he's incapable of change. A top-tier assistant coach, but possibly a bottom-3rd head coach.

Nighthock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 01:34 PM
  #245
ramstoria
Registered User
 
ramstoria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Sacramento
Country: United States
Posts: 903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Some blame should fall on DW in that he outlined certain goals for the year, and failed to meet them.
Agreed, but I think DW has a window, just like the Sharks have a window. When the major contacts end in 2014 and it's time to rebuild then I'm all for letting go of Wilson and bringing in a new GM for the task. But until then Wilson has 2 more seasons to get the job done, as do Thorton, Marleau, Boyle, and crew.

ramstoria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 01:46 PM
  #246
Led Zappa
Oy vey...
 
Led Zappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,977
vCash: 500
Brodie Brazil ‏ @brodiebrazilCSN

Lot of coaching and systems in today's #sjsharks practice.


__________________

"This is not a nick or a scratch, this is an open wound" - Doug Wilson.
Led Zappa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 02:05 PM
  #247
Paka Ono
Pro Ice Girl Scout
 
Paka Ono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: SF
Posts: 1,010
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Brodie Brazil ‏ @brodiebrazilCSN

Lot of coaching and systems in today's #sjsharks practice.

I like how the staff waits till round 1 game 4 to implement what should have been there from pre season game 1...

*sigh*

Paka Ono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 02:15 PM
  #248
Led Zappa
Oy vey...
 
Led Zappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Country: Scotland
Posts: 32,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paka Ono View Post
I like how the staff waits till round 1 game 4 to implement what should have been there from pre season game 1...

*sigh*


You honestly believe that? I posted before the PO's a similar Tweet that said they had extended practice and were going over PK strategies. Because they haven't worked doesn't mean they aren't working on them.

It looks like lineup changes are coming and they are trying to address the PK.

People can keep complaining that the coaches don't know what they are doing or the players aren't executing what they are taught, but they can't say that the coaches are just accepting the results and hoping for the best.

We are playing probably the worst draw the Sharks could have gotten, but it's all the coaches fault. You know, it just may be that the Blues are better. Still, it's only 2-1 right now.

Led Zappa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 02:18 PM
  #249
one2gamble
Registered User
 
one2gamble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
We are playing probably the worst draw the Sharks could have gotten, but it's all the coaches fault.
well if thats true then it is the coaches fault, they could have thrown that last game

one2gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2012, 02:28 PM
  #250
PondShark
Registered User
 
PondShark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 223
vCash: 500
this team would get blown out the door by the Canucks anyways so who the hell cares. I have lost faith in this team. They are too soft to win. Can we bench #12?

I am hoping for this lineup in Game 4

Marleu/Winchester-Thornton-Pav/Wingles (Winni and Wingles are told to hit everthing that moves and to drive the net and stay there)(they would not be allowed on the ice at the same time.)
Clowe - Couture - Havlat
Winnik - Desi - Wingles
Winchester - Mitchell - Galiardi

PondShark is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:45 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.