No doubt the man will be a first ballot Hall of Famer, but looking over his career and using my own memory, is he really a Hall of Fame player?
By that I mean roughly half of the current inductees owe their spot due to circumstance rather than actual stardom ( Fuhr, Niewendyk, Lanny McDonald? ).
Modano, if you overlook his entire career, was a fantastic leader and I certainly remember him being a big face in the NHL for a long time, however few things stand out to me that points to him being an all-time great. I suppose I never thought about it, when he chose the Wings I was ecstatic because of all the times I put him on the Wings in those dynasty modes, however what does he have aside from those 3 dominant years in the 90s and by dominant I mean his team?
Ed Belfour had .916% save percentage with 1.88 GAA in 61 games.
1998-99
Modano-81 points (lead his team in goals and points playing 77 games)
Hull-58 points with 32 goals in 60 games ( would have 74 points in 77 games and more goals than Modano )
Zubov had 51 points.
Ed Belfour had .915% save percentage with 1.99 GAA in 61 games again.
1999-00
This is the year Modano really took over, leading the team in points and goals by a good margin.
In the playoffs, Hull out-points Mondao by one but they are very equal.
Belfour remains at .919% and his GAA goes up again to 2.10 in 62 games.
I'm obviously not saying Modano was a secondary character, he lead his team in playoff points in 98 and 99, however more often than not more on assists and his raw numbers slump in his 4 playoff outtings (not counting Detroit).
HALL OF FAMER without a doubt, but when I review his career, call it timeline of being compared to centers like Yzerman (who ironically beats out Modano on either player's one and only end of year All-Star team), but I'm not sure where to rank Modano on an all-time scale.
And keep in mind I do understand why his numbers are the way they are, I just think without the 98-00 period he probably has a lot less notoriety.
I think any player, without their peak, earns a lot less notoreity, no?
modano would be in my HHOF. Dallas was a powerhouse for 7 years, and he was their best player the entire time. He was easily the offensive leader of the team, and was the center of the best defensive line on the team, doing the heavy lifting against the West's other top centers.
Where would I rank him on an all-time list? In the 160th range, probably. Right around Dale Hawerchuk or Pavel Datsyuk. (Datsyuk is on a strong upward trajectory mind you, I'm talking about where he ranks at this very moment)
Where would I rank him on an all-time list? In the 160th range, probably. Right around Dale Hawerchuk or Pavel Datsyuk. (Datsyuk is on a strong upward trajectory mind you, I'm talking about where he ranks at this very moment)
See that's my main point. How great of a player is that?
The Hall of Fame as it is, would be a joke not to include Modano, as I stressed in my OP, but Modano doesn't fit into my mold of an all-time great.
There's arguably three lines worth of all-timers for every generation and two goaltenders.
I'm not sure I'd put Modano on that third line.
He's below Sakic and Yzerman on my list.
I don't see how he's different from Sundin to be honest.
That's not a bad thing but I don't consider Sundin an all-timer.
This is going to open a can of worms, but Modano is only Sundin's equal if you look at regular season offense. Modano was much better defensively and in the playoffs.
Sundin has a large edge in international play, but we all have different opinions as to how to count that.
considering there are close to 250 players in the hall.... I'd say great enough.
That's more players than are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
It's not a good thing.
I'd call him one of the best players of the 3rd expansion era, but overall not an all-time great, though a great Stars player for certain.
I guess to me a player who is outside the Top 20 in modern day for his position isn't great enough. I'll have to go back and see how Modano stacks up with other Centers. Ron Francis?
That's more players than are in the Pro Football Hall of Fame.
It's not a good thing.
I'd call him one of the best players of the 3rd expansion era, but overall not an all-time great, though a great Stars player for certain.
I guess to me a player who is outside the Top 20 in modern day for his position isn't great enough. I'll have to go back and see how Modano stacks up with other Centers. Ron Francis?
you can define "your" hall any way you like. "my" hall is about the size of the "actual" hall, and based on that size Modano is easily in.
This is going to open a can of worms, but Modano is only Sundin's equal if you look at regular season offense. Modano was much better defensively and in the playoffs.
Sundin has a large edge in international play, but we all have different opinions as to how to count that.
I like to use international play to an extent, but only the top level tournaments. Shane Doan and Ryan Smyth are great guys and loyal Canadians, but showing up to the World Championships every year isn't a plus. But the Olympics/World Cup, if you can stand out there, then yes, you should get some accolades. The HHOF doesn't care though.
Modano all-time is ahead of Sundin. I think the consistency of both players should be commended, but Sundin did it for just a tad longer and was no worse when both were at their best.
Modano makes up for it and then some with his playoff heroics and noticeably better defensive play than Sundin. Both players I always felt could have used their size better, but physicality was not either players' game.
Where would I rank him on an all-time list? In the 160th range, probably. Right around Dale Hawerchuk or Pavel Datsyuk. (Datsyuk is on a strong upward trajectory mind you, I'm talking about where he ranks at this very moment)
Sorry to derail, but I'm a little shocked you have Hawerchuk so low. Do you knock him a lot of points for spending so long on a worthless Jets team ergo accomplishing nothing in the postseason?
Pro Hockey has been around a lot longer than Pro Football.
Pro Football HOF was established in 1963 and looks like the earliest inductees were from the 1930s.
Hockey HOF was established in 1945 and the earlier inductees were from the 1890s.
NFL football is 11 on offense and 11 on defense.
Hockey is 6 players on the ice for a team.
Granted Safeties, Fullbacks and Guards are on the low-end of Hall of Fame candidates, but that is bias and still leaves:
QBs
RBs
WRs
TEs
Ts
DEs
DTs
LBs
CBs
And last time I checked the NHL was 6 teams until 1967, 12 teams until 1974, then 21 teams from 1979-1992. The NFL had 12 teams for a long period until the merger in 1970 which had the league at 24 teams.
Nobody and I mean nobody with full knowledge of NFL and NHL history will argue the Hockey Hall of Fame is anywhere NEAR as exclusive as the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And I'm one of those who argues the Pro Football Hall is too strict and should in one more inductee each year because of the massive backlog.
If the Hockey Hall of Fame was ever divided into tiers ( never gonna happen but let's play the game ) Modano would not be in the top group.
Sakic and Yzerman probably would, but not Modano.
And trust me, I love Modano as a player, one of my favorite from the 90s.
You can't use the nonsensical football HoF as a reference. 2x Offensive PoY, 1x MVP, 2x Super Bowl Champ, 1x Super Bowl MVP, 2000 yard rusher Terrell Davis isn't in there.
I'd also be curious if any of you guys were also football fans and had a thought on that.
You can't use the nonsensical football HoF as a reference. 2x Offensive PoY, 1x MVP, 2x Super Bowl Champ, 1x Super Bowl MVP, 2000 yard rusher Terrell Davis isn't in there.
I'd also be curious if any of you guys were also football fans and had a thought on that.
Would it be fair to put a Football Hall of Fame vs. Hockey Hall of Fame thread in the History section??
I'm one of Davis' supporters.
The NFL Hall has some underlying bias, but it's because of the small spots available. Many believe Davis will eventually get in, kinda like Floyd Little. It is what it is. I'd put Sterling Sharpe in but the Hall is pretty adamant about inductees having long careers, the exceptions being MVPs and Super Bowls, like in the case of Earl Campbell or Michael Irvin.
I think any player, without their peak, earns a lot less notoreity, no?
modano would be in my HHOF. Dallas was a powerhouse for 7 years, and he was their best player the entire time. He was easily the offensive leader of the team, and was the center of the best defensive line on the team, doing the heavy lifting against the West's other top centers.
Where would I rank him on an all-time list? In the 160th range, probably. Right around Dale Hawerchuk or Pavel Datsyuk. (Datsyuk is on a strong upward trajectory mind you, I'm talking about where he ranks at this very moment)
Is Hawerchuk really that low? I know, he racked up all the points in the high-scoring era. But the guy was pretty good. Cracked 100 points several times. More than 1400 points in little over 1100 games. More than 800 assists. I don't know too much of his playstyle tough. Was he a liability defensively? Somehow i see his numbers putting him higher that that. Maybe 100-120 spot?
Is Hawerchuk really that low? I know, he racked up all the points in the high-scoring era. But the guy was pretty good. Cracked 100 points several times. More than 1400 points in little over 1100 games. More than 800 assists. I don't know too much of his playstyle tough. Was he a liability defensively? Somehow i see his numbers putting him higher that that. Maybe 100-120 spot?
I think you have to put a good amount of weight to someone being the best player on powerhouse team for several seasons. Modano was the best Dallas player throughout the late 90s and early 2000s, where they won a couple of President's Trophies, won a Cup, and made it to game 6 of the Finals the following year.
No doubt the man will be a first ballot Hall of Famer, but looking over his career and using my own memory, is he really a Hall of Fame player?
HALL OF FAMER without a doubt, but when I review his career, call it timeline of being compared to centers like Yzerman (who ironically beats out Modano on either player's one and only end of year All-Star team), but I'm not sure where to rank Modano on an all-time scale.
The eye test. Sakic, Yzerman and Nieuwendyk were arguably more "cerebral" but Modano, Fedorov and Forsberg were the definition of the modern all-around center in my mind. I watched Mike Modano very closely for 15 years and he was the best player on the ice about half the games he played.
Maybe I totally underrate Dale Hawerchuk, but I don't see how he's better than Modano. His stats are not that dissimilar to Modano's adjusted for the decade and as has already been discussed, he was the best player on a bunch of Winnipeg teams that would have gotten stomped by the Dallas teams Mike Modano was the best player on.
Tie-breaker #1: Mike Modano is the best American forward of all time, and that's not close. If the best Ontario players of all time are all eating lunch in Hamilton, Dale Hawerchuk is at a cookout at a lake house in Thunder Bay.
Tie-breaker #2: Mrs Hawerchuk is probably a pretty niece 50-year old piece. Do a google search for Willa Ford.
Granted Safeties, Fullbacks and Guards are on the low-end of Hall of Fame candidates, but that is bias and still leaves:
QBs
RBs
WRs
TEs
Ts
DEs
DTs
LBs
CBs
And last time I checked the NHL was 6 teams until 1967, 12 teams until 1974, then 21 teams from 1979-1992. The NFL had 12 teams for a long period until the merger in 1970 which had the league at 24 teams.
Nobody and I mean nobody with full knowledge of NFL and NHL history will argue the Hockey Hall of Fame is anywhere NEAR as exclusive as the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And I'm one of those who argues the Pro Football Hall is too strict and should in one more inductee each year because of the massive backlog.
If the Hockey Hall of Fame was ever divided into tiers ( never gonna happen but let's play the game ) Modano would not be in the top group.
Sakic and Yzerman probably would, but not Modano.
And trust me, I love Modano as a player, one of my favorite from the 90s.
yeah, the tiered model is the best way to compare players like this in my opinion.
Sorry to derail, but I'm a little shocked you have Hawerchuk so low. Do you knock him a lot of points for spending so long on a worthless Jets team ergo accomplishing nothing in the postseason?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala
Is Hawerchuk really that low? I know, he racked up all the points in the high-scoring era. But the guy was pretty good. Cracked 100 points several times. More than 1400 points in little over 1100 games. More than 800 assists. I don't know too much of his playstyle tough. Was he a liability defensively? Somehow i see his numbers putting him higher that that. Maybe 100-120 spot?
The history of hockey is a very long time and there are positions other than forward. Try making all-time lists and you run out of room for a lot of 1000+ point 1980s forwards pretty fast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Engine
And the book "Let's Talk About Hockey" is being used as a source against 70s. This thing is insidious, isn't it?
If Modano was playing on Colorado he would be scoring 90-100 points while also still getting praised for his D. Playing on Dallas obv hurt Modano's numbers but it also made him significantly better defensively than those two.
You can't use the nonsensical football HoF as a reference. 2x Offensive PoY, 1x MVP, 2x Super Bowl Champ, 1x Super Bowl MVP, 2000 yard rusher Terrell Davis isn't in there.
I'd also be curious if any of you guys were also football fans and had a thought on that.
The guy only played 78 games in the NFL which works out to less than five full seasons. Very high peak, but because he got hurt there's no longevity.
Football HOF is notoriously stingy for both players and coaches (see Parcells, Bill). And Hockey HOF is pretty lenient (see: any number of examples)
But 78 NFL games is about 400 NHL games, and I guarantee you, if Crosby or Ovechkin retired at 400 games because of a career ending injury, they would have gotten in (and rightfully so).
The history of hockey is a very long time and there are positions other than forward. Try making all-time lists and you run out of room for a lot of 1000+ point 1980s forwards pretty fast.
I know you will run out. But honestly, is Hawerchuk the only 1400+ forward that is NOT in the top-100? Or, at least top-150?
