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Florida Panthers going into Bankruptcy?

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04-17-2012, 03:16 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
Please cite me the table showing what each "poor" team reiceived and what each "rich team" contributes last year.
You know as well as I do that the NHL keeps those figures under wraps, and the formula determining how the cash is doled out is fairly complex. Found this assessment of how Rev Sharing is likely calculated, but the NHL keeps this stuff super secret, for logical reasons:

http://ykoil.blogspot.ca/2009/06/nhl...alary-cap.html

The Globe and Mail ran a story a few years ago with loads of evidence that the Canadian teams combined to send $41 million south in a single season. Every Canadian team contributed, with the Habs at $12.5m, the Leafs at $12m, the Canucks at $10m, and even the Oilers at $800K.

Can't find the full story online, but some of it is cited here.

http://torontosportsmedia.com/toront...-money-war/594

It's not a big secret that the big teams are subsidizing the sad sacks in a pretty big way. The numbers in the G&M story surely haven't gone down in the past few years, either. IIRC, the Coyotes were getting something like $20-25 million in revenue sharing per season a few years ago. This got revealed in the bankruptcy court filings.

So, good luck in the playoffs, but for the good of the entire NHL, I really hope your team dies soon. Contraction or a move, either's good. Sorry, nothing personal. But I don't see why Canadians up here should be subsidizing your ability to spend $20 or whatever to throw plastic rats on the ice.

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04-17-2012, 03:24 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
One, the Panthers aren't going into bankruptcy and are not in trouble. They are in fact on a path of coming out of their very long lean years. Two, the Devils are just finding new investors. It's a common thing with ownership groups and while the Devils definitely have their issues, they aren't exactly in danger of folding anytime soon either. The Islanders will find a place to play. Contraction will never become an option as long as there are open markets for them to relocate to first. And at the very worst for the Coyotes, Panthers, Devils, and Islanders, there are at least four places they could go to and really only one of those teams actually has a good chance of using that option at this point.
Where is the proof of this? Have the Panthers raised ticket prices this year to sustainable levels that will get them out of the revenue-sharing ghetto? Show me the slightest bit of real financial evidence that this turnaround is really happening.

As far as open markets, please name one viable one that doesn't begin with a "Q." Hamilton and Toronto have major issues, so don't go there. Seattle has no rink and no owner. KC no owner and apparently no interest. Houston no owner and apparently no interest. Beyond that, where are these open markets? You get into Saskatoon, Milwaukee, Portland, etc. and you're really looking at Hail Marys, with very little chance of success. All you'd do is swap one welfare case for another.

After moving Phoenix to Quebec, the NHL will run out of options for future relocations. That, more than anything, is likely fueling Bettman's fight to keep the Coyotes right where they are. The NHL allows that move, then the league has no sane options left if someone just throws the keys on the table and walks, like what happened with Atlanta a year ago. At some point, one of these welfare clubs is going to go under and declare bankruptcy. It might not be Florida or NJ. But it will happen again, given how much money is bleeding from a fair number of US teams.

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04-17-2012, 03:27 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post

It's not a big secret that the big teams are subsidizing the sad sacks in a pretty big way. The numbers in the G&M story surely haven't gone down in the past few years, either. IIRC, the Coyotes were getting something like $20-25 million in revenue sharing per season a few years ago. This got revealed in the bankruptcy court filings.

So, good luck in the playoffs, but for the good of the entire NHL, I really hope your team dies soon. Contraction or a move, either's good. Sorry, nothing personal. But I don't see why Canadians up here should be subsidizing your ability to spend $20 or whatever to throw plastic rats on the ice.
I don't understand your anger over this.

The moneymaking teams of the MLB, NBA and the NFL all contribute to and help the teams that are not as profitable.

There are always going to be teams that make ridiculous amounts of money and teams that don't. Furthermore, those broad categories are not restricted by geographic constraints. It was not too long ago that the Jets and Nordiques moved, the Oilers were on the brink of following them down south and the Sens ran the risk of having their entire team turned over to free agency because they couldn't pay the bills.

The point is that economic conditions change, but the constant is that there are always bottom dwellers, both in the standings and in revenue (and often side by side). Getting angry over that fact shows an ignorance to the trend or the devoted search for reasons to bash hockey in the South.

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04-17-2012, 06:15 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Captain Tripps View Post
I don't understand your anger over this.

The moneymaking teams of the MLB, NBA and the NFL all contribute to and help the teams that are not as profitable.
Are the highly profitable teams in those other leagues actually subsidizing money-losing teams? They have massive TV contracts, right? I have a hard time believing any team in the NFL would actually lose money without revenue sharing from the big teams, although maybe I'm wrong. Just seems like a terrible business model when teams that are actually losing money and have little prospect of being profitable any time soon (like the Coyotes) need to propped up by a combination of government subisidies and revenue sharing.

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Old
04-17-2012, 08:47 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by ToddGillForever View Post
You know as well as I do that the NHL keeps those figures under wraps, and the formula determining how the cash is doled out is fairly complex....


So, good luck in the playoffs, but for the good of the entire NHL, I really hope your team dies soon. Contraction or a move, either's good. Sorry, nothing personal. But I don't see why Canadians up here should be subsidizing your ability to spend $20 or whatever to throw plastic rats on the ice.
So as I thought, your entire diatribe is inference building, and as the genesis of this thread, has no factual basis, but simply the sad sad anger of a fan of the worst team in sports jealous of the huge successes here.

I understand how difficult a time it is when 5/7 teams north of the border fail, and the other two are on the brink of lst round failure.it embarrasses you to no end, and I get it and i feel for you. And for you a fan of the worst of the worst makes it especially difficult.

But I must tell you the hate is not healthy. Be happy for hockey fans here, who are today going to spend the day on the beach, ogling beautiful women, and then head over to a pooolside bar and watch their financially healthy hockey team play game 3.

it's "your game" , so let go of the envy my friend, and be happy.

Cheers!

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04-17-2012, 08:51 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
So as I thought, your entire diatribe is inference building, and as the genesis of this thread, has no factual basis, but simply the sad sad anger of a fan of the worst team in sports jealous of the huge successes here.

I understand how difficult a time it is when 5/7 teams north of the border fail, and the other two are on the brink of lst round failure.it embarrasses you to no end, and I get it and i feel for you. And for you a fan of the worst of the worst makes it especially difficult.

But I must tell you the hate is not healthy. Be happy for hockey fans here, who are today going to spend the day on the beach, ogling beautiful women, and then head over to a pooolside bar and watch their financially healthy hockey team play game 3.

it's "your game" , so let go of the envy my friend, and be happy.

Cheers!
one of your best posts of all times AG!

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04-17-2012, 08:55 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Captain Tripps View Post
I don't understand your anger over this.

The moneymaking teams of the MLB, NBA and the NFL all contribute to and help the teams that are not as profitable.

There are always going to be teams that make ridiculous amounts of money and teams that don't. Furthermore, those broad categories are not restricted by geographic constraints. It was not too long ago that the Jets and Nordiques moved, the Oilers were on the brink of following them down south and the Sens ran the risk of having their entire team turned over to free agency because they couldn't pay the bills.

The point is that economic conditions change, but the constant is that there are always bottom dwellers, both in the standings and in revenue (and often side by side). Getting angry over that fact shows an ignorance to the trend or the devoted search for reasons to bash hockey in the South.
Excellent post. But haters will hate no matter if their arguments fly in the face of facts.you hurricanes guys didn't make the playoffs but had a wonderful turnout to the last home game against us, and friends of mine that went from Florida said it was absolute blast. The best tailgating, zealous fans and a wonderful game atmosphere. I am sure that is an experience the above poster will never enjoy.

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Old
04-17-2012, 09:32 AM
  #183
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So...let me get this straight ToddGillForver, you're bent out of shape that when you pay at MLG a percentage of that is going to less earning teams (not just southern, let's remember. You've targeted us, but the article also mentions Jersey, and many northern teams have struggled), but you've not actually paid to see a game since MLG opened? I'm sorry, but you just showed all of us what your true issue is: hockey in the south. Not revenue sharing, which all 4 major leagues do, but that hockey is south of the mason-dixon line.

There's no proof that Florida itself is struggling, or how much of the $40 million went where, but you target us? PA won't allow contraction, too many jobs lost, and we're just not going anywhere. Panthers gain money in other ways, and yes, ticket prices are going up.

Several non-Panther fans have spoken to the team not being in trouble, and we've not heard a whisper of it other than some obscure article. False stories are written every hour of every day. Ink on paper doesn't make it true.

Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Boston are three teams who struggled after missing for only a few years. It's been 12 years and we had similar issues but still had people coming out.

Hockey has grown like wildfire here. This state has embraced it, it's loved! We just demand MUCH better ownership and talk with our wallets. It was hear a few years ago, and now we're in the playoffs, filling the arena, cheering wildly, and loving it. Have one of the best prospect pools in the league, and a GM who knows how to build a winner!

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04-17-2012, 12:32 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
So...let me get this straight ToddGillForver, you're bent out of shape that when you pay at MLG a percentage of that is going to less earning teams (not just southern, let's remember. You've targeted us, but the article also mentions Jersey, and many northern teams have struggled), but you've not actually paid to see a game since MLG opened? I'm sorry, but you just showed all of us what your true issue is: hockey in the south. Not revenue sharing, which all 4 major leagues do, but that hockey is south of the mason-dixon line.

There's no proof that Florida itself is struggling, or how much of the $40 million went where, but you target us? PA won't allow contraction, too many jobs lost, and we're just not going anywhere. Panthers gain money in other ways, and yes, ticket prices are going up.

Several non-Panther fans have spoken to the team not being in trouble, and we've not heard a whisper of it other than some obscure article. False stories are written every hour of every day. Ink on paper doesn't make it true.

Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Boston are three teams who struggled after missing for only a few years. It's been 12 years and we had similar issues but still had people coming out.

Hockey has grown like wildfire here. This state has embraced it, it's loved! We just demand MUCH better ownership and talk with our wallets. It was hear a few years ago, and now we're in the playoffs, filling the arena, cheering wildly, and loving it. Have one of the best prospect pools in the league, and a GM who knows how to build a winner!
People easily seem to forget that Vancouver had these problems too. Arguably even worse because there weren't many professional leagues to compete with.

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04-17-2012, 12:40 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Are the highly profitable teams in those other leagues actually subsidizing money-losing teams? They have massive TV contracts, right? I have a hard time believing any team in the NFL would actually lose money without revenue sharing from the big teams, although maybe I'm wrong. Just seems like a terrible business model when teams that are actually losing money and have little prospect of being profitable any time soon (like the Coyotes) need to propped up by a combination of government subisidies and revenue sharing.
I wouldn't be surprised if most of the mlb loses are coming from Florida, but aggressive revenue-sharing makes them manageable. And neither of the Florida teams are being considered for relocation.

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04-17-2012, 12:44 PM
  #186
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I wouldn't at all be surprised if NJD declares bankruptcy. I would, however, be surprised if the Panthers declare bankruptcy.

Despite the Panthers' past woes, I just don't see them going that far yet. It takes more than a year to rebuild a fan-following after years of sucking up the bottom half of the standings.

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04-17-2012, 01:00 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Are the highly profitable teams in those other leagues actually subsidizing money-losing teams? They have massive TV contracts, right? I have a hard time believing any team in the NFL would actually lose money without revenue sharing from the big teams, although maybe I'm wrong. Just seems like a terrible business model when teams that are actually losing money and have little prospect of being profitable any time soon (like the Coyotes) need to propped up by a combination of government subisidies and revenue sharing.
In the NFL, teams like Green Bay and Jacksonville would not be profitable long term without the massive TV contract.

In the MLB, the rich teams pay a luxury tax that goes directly into the pockets of the poor teams. Same for the NBA.

Every other Big League has some form of assistance to give teams that are not currently profitable.

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04-17-2012, 09:15 PM
  #188
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According to former coach Doug Maclean the Panthers were giving away tickets Sunday in order to fill the building.

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04-17-2012, 09:27 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by dj4aces View Post
I wouldn't at all be surprised if NJD declares bankruptcy. I would, however, be surprised if the Panthers declare bankruptcy.

Despite the Panthers' past woes, I just don't see them going that far yet. It takes more than a year to rebuild a fan-following after years of sucking up the bottom half of the standings.
Attendance is nice but it's only indirectly related to cash flow as not all people in seats are equal when it comes to their financial contribution to the club's bottom line. So whether they're rebuilding their fan following or not has nothing to deal with whether they're going to declare bankruptcy or not.

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04-17-2012, 09:43 PM
  #190
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According to former coach Doug Maclean the Panthers were giving away tickets Sunday in order to fill the building.
First off, Doug MacLean is an angry man. Secondly, despite limited success in Florida and absolutely no success in Columbus, very nearly extinguishing hockey in Ohio (how thats even possible Im sure I dont know, mustve' taken lessons from Norm Green, Charlie Wang & Garth Snow) I have about zero respect for his opinions on hockey, players, or the business aspects of the game. And thirdly, so what if SSE's did giveaway a few hundred or a few thousand tickets to a playoff game? Its called m a r k e t i n g. Get em in, get em hooked. They bought beer & popcorn, tasty treats, mebbe a cap or a jersey. Mustve felt like they were surrounded by lottery winners. People going absolutely nuts. First thing they do upon exiting the building is head on over to the ticket offices & pull out the plastic. Yet Dougie mentions this from a Toronto studio, the inference quite clear, because..... he cant get a job in the game to save his life anymore & has bought into the Toronto-centric hockey elitism in order to try & stay relevant & pay his mortgage?

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04-18-2012, 01:59 AM
  #191
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Where is the proof of this? Have the Panthers raised ticket prices this year to sustainable levels that will get them out of the revenue-sharing ghetto? Show me the slightest bit of real financial evidence that this turnaround is really happening.

As far as open markets, please name one viable one that doesn't begin with a "Q." Hamilton and Toronto have major issues, so don't go there. Seattle has no rink and no owner. KC no owner and apparently no interest. Houston no owner and apparently no interest. Beyond that, where are these open markets? You get into Saskatoon, Milwaukee, Portland, etc. and you're really looking at Hail Marys, with very little chance of success. All you'd do is swap one welfare case for another.

After moving Phoenix to Quebec, the NHL will run out of options for future relocations. That, more than anything, is likely fueling Bettman's fight to keep the Coyotes right where they are. The NHL allows that move, then the league has no sane options left if someone just throws the keys on the table and walks, like what happened with Atlanta a year ago. At some point, one of these welfare clubs is going to go under and declare bankruptcy. It might not be Florida or NJ. But it will happen again, given how much money is bleeding from a fair number of US teams.
If you want to try and play the 'show me proof' card, then you need to show some proof that the Panthers are going into bankruptcy or are having issues of some financial nature. The mere fact that they went to the playoffs and have had an increase in attendance is a step in the right direction no matter how you slice it or spin it.

Saying Seattle has no rink or no owner is more or less saying Quebec City doesn't have a rink or owner. Yes, Quebec City is slightly ahead in their movement for the arena but not so far that they should be considered the only open market because Seattle is getting down that track too.

And if you're willing to discount Hamilton, Saskatoon, and Markham as markets, you would be discounting Winnipeg as a market too since they had a perceived inadequate stadium. And other markets have certain issues for sure but things change quickly when the league decides to prepare for a relocation scenario.

You vastly exaggerate your belief of what is a sane relocation spot and vastly exaggerate the issues of current teams anyway. Besides that, even a perceived insane relocation idea is still going to be pursued long, long before the ever-popular idea of contraction is even remotely conversed about.

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04-18-2012, 07:59 AM
  #192
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Saying Seattle has no rink or no owner is more or less saying Quebec City doesn't have a rink or owner.
I don't see it that way at all. Here's how I see the two. Quebec is mad about getting an NHL team, is committed to a $400m arena and a multimillion dollar upgrade to their old arena to acommodate any franchise acquisition that might happen before the new arena is up and running. A rabid fanbase that is making its presence known attending games, en masse in numerous league locations, and has a very wealthy owner who is very interested in an NHL team.

In Seattle you have a rich owner who owns some land and wants to bring back the NBA, and will take a hockey team too to help with the business. The only adavantge Seattle might have is that the owners might prefer a U.S. market.

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Yes, Quebec City is slightly ahead in their movement for the arena but not so far that they should be considered the only open market because Seattle is getting down that track too.
I'd say, "May go down that track."

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And if you're willing to discount Hamilton, Saskatoon, and Markham as markets, you would be discounting Winnipeg as a market too since they had a perceived inadequate stadium. And other markets have certain issues for sure but things change quickly when the league decides to prepare for a relocation scenario.
True, being a Hamiltonian, I'm a wishful thinker, but really, I can't see it any other way right now other than QC is way ahead of all those other markets having nonme of their huge obstacles

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04-18-2012, 08:09 AM
  #193
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I don't see it that way at all. Here's how I see the two. Quebec is mad about getting an NHL team, is committed to a $400m arena and a multimillion dollar upgrade to their old arena to acommodate any franchise acquisition that might happen before the new arena is up and running. A rabid fanbase that is making its presence known attending games, en masse in numerous league locations, and has a very wealthy owner who is very interested in an NHL team.

In Seattle you have a rich owner who owns some land and wants to bring back the NBA, and will take a hockey team too to help with the business. The only adavantge Seattle might have is that the owners might prefer a U.S. market.

I'd say, "May go down that track."


True, being a Hamiltonian, I'm a wishful thinker, but really, I can't see it any other way right now other than QC is way ahead of all those other markets having nonme of their huge obstacles
At the end of it all, Seattle and Quebec City have a deal in place where they are capable of acquiring a franchise. At the end of the day, that's what it comes down to until something actually happens. That's why even Bill Daly has talked about Seattle as being up there with QC.

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04-18-2012, 08:12 AM
  #194
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^^^ I dunno. What's the current status in Seattle? Would they chase an NHL team without getting an NBA team?

Where are they now on a new arena? Do they have financing in place?

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04-18-2012, 08:23 AM
  #195
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^^^ I dunno. What's the current status in Seattle. Would they cahse and NHL team without getting an NBA team?

Where are they now on a new arena? Do they have financing in place?
The reality is that Seattle doesn't have to chase an NHL team w/o getting an NBA team. The group already has financing figured out but will need to jump through some hoops to get it approved. Like I said, they're not as far along as QC but they're on track and at a point where if they were offered a team, they can accept it and go from there.

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04-18-2012, 08:37 AM
  #196
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Granted I'm not following the Seattle situation closely, but is there someone interested in pursuing an NHL team in Seattle without an NBA team?

Also, is someone interested in building an arena for just an NHL team?

I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I hear what you're saying, but I think they're way behind QC in terms of the NHL.

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04-18-2012, 10:40 AM
  #197
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According to former coach Doug Maclean the Panthers were giving away tickets Sunday in order to fill the building.
Really? where? I was at the game sunday night and other than 19,250 free rally towels being handed out that was the only thing i saw being given away.

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04-18-2012, 11:13 AM
  #198
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According to former coach Doug Maclean the Panthers were giving away tickets Sunday in order to fill the building.
Radio giveaways? Like they do everywhere in the country? Yes, walking around handing em out? Nope.

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04-18-2012, 11:26 AM
  #199
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Check out these Panther playoff ticket prices

http://www.vividseats.com/nhl-hockey...2-1260986.html

http://seatgeek.com/panthers-devils-...r/nhl/804586/#

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04-18-2012, 11:30 AM
  #200
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compare tickets of a Florida Gators/Tennessee game compared to a CIS game. Not there fault the demand is not as high.

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