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Germany at U18 WC

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04-18-2012, 09:38 AM
  #26
Maverick41
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Originally Posted by sturmthis View Post
I have been reading an article by the IIHF about European players and the CHL and how it makes the argument it is better for a majority of prospects to stay in Europe and how the argument of getting used to the different ice size is becoming less and less relevant because of international tournaments. Furthermore it goes on to talk about how practice time is more important for players at the ages of 12-20 and they are able to get a lot more practice time in Europe with the smaller schedules and a lot less travel.

I want the talent to stay in Germany until they are ready for the NHL. Too much young talent has already left the last 3 years. Sturm, Goc, Hecht, Ehrhoff, Seidenberg are all successful NHL players who stayed 2+ years playing in the DEL before coming over. All of those players played NHL games in their first year in North America. Our top prospects staying in Germany hasn't killed their potential, so I think they should stay and keep the talent level higher until they can be a NHL player.

http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...IIHF_Study.pdf
I am not sure, that I agree with this completely. There are a few very good points, but I am just not sure, that players can even get NHL ready when they stay in Germany. I don't think the level of play is good enough.

I have no idea what it was like at the times when Sturm, Hecht or Seidenberg were playing in juniors, but these past few years, that I have been following German players in North American junior hockey it rarely has hurt their play.

The only two players that seemed to be negatively affected are Nick Latta, though he is still very young, and Toni Ritter who could not stick in the DEL since his return.
While others like Krupp, Reul or Keil do pretty well back in German after they couldn't make it in North America.
And guys like Rieder, Kühnhackl, Noebels, Abeltshauser or Grubauer seem to be on good way.
Of course there are a lot of guys where the jury is still out, like Höfflin, Elsner, Uvira, Bittner, Niederberger (who had a very good season).

In general I think it would be ok if they stayed here until they are AHL-ready, like Holzer. But I don't think it is a bad thing if they go to play in the CHL in their draft year, like Rieder, or the year after they had been drafted, like Kühnhackl.

All in all I don't believe there is one correct way that will work best for every player. Some will benefit from playing junior hockey in North America, while some would be better off staying in Germany until they are ready for the pros.
Alternatively I would not mind if a few players would go to Sweden to play junior hockey there.

Fact is, that the development of talent in Germany must be improved further especially in junior hockey. The way it is right now, with all the good players crowded on a couple of teams, is not going to work in the long run.

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04-18-2012, 01:56 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Maverick41 View Post
I am not sure, that I agree with this completely. There are a few very good points, but I am just not sure, that players can even get NHL ready when they stay in Germany. I don't think the level of play is good enough.

I have no idea what it was like at the times when Sturm, Hecht or Seidenberg were playing in juniors, but these past few years, that I have been following German players in North American junior hockey it rarely has hurt their play.

The only two players that seemed to be negatively affected are Nick Latta, though he is still very young, and Toni Ritter who could not stick in the DEL since his return.
While others like Krupp, Reul or Keil do pretty well back in German after they couldn't make it in North America.
And guys like Rieder, Kühnhackl, Noebels, Abeltshauser or Grubauer seem to be on good way.
Of course there are a lot of guys where the jury is still out, like Höfflin, Elsner, Uvira, Bittner, Niederberger (who had a very good season).

In general I think it would be ok if they stayed here until they are AHL-ready, like Holzer. But I don't think it is a bad thing if they go to play in the CHL in their draft year, like Rieder, or the year after they had been drafted, like Kühnhackl.

All in all I don't believe there is one correct way that will work best for every player. Some will benefit from playing junior hockey in North America, while some would be better off staying in Germany until they are ready for the pros.
Alternatively I would not mind if a few players would go to Sweden to play junior hockey there.

Fact is, that the development of talent in Germany must be improved further especially in junior hockey. The way it is right now, with all the good players crowded on a couple of teams, is not going to work in the long run.
I agree that the CHL can be a good route. In the case of Niederberger, it has brought his name into the draft picture. Rieder is also having a fantastic year. I also agree that there isn't one correct way for players.

I will admit that my reasoning is a little selfish, but I just want to see some of these skilled U20 players stay in Germany and play in the DEL before they move on to North America. Bigger players like Kühnhackl and Noebels would be able to handle playing against men in the DEL at 18,19,20 like Sturm, Goc, etc have done in the past.

The big names of the past were also making Team Germany for the Olympics and World Championships while 19,20,21 because they played in Germany and I think that helps them get the exposure that they need by not playing in the CHL. The great prospects will outgrow the German Junior Leagues by 16 and that is when they could move on to the 2. Bundesliga or DEL as another choice instead of heading to the CHL for a better junior league.

I would really like to see this with some of the 95 prospects to stay in Germany longer than the last 3-4 years. Draisaitl already has outgrown the DNL, but he has the size and skill to move on to play with the men in the 2. Bundesliga and possibly the DEL by 18.

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04-18-2012, 03:04 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sturmthis View Post
I agree that the CHL can be a good route. In the case of Niederberger, it has brought his name into the draft picture. Rieder is also having a fantastic year. I also agree that there isn't one correct way for players.

I will admit that my reasoning is a little selfish, but I just want to see some of these skilled U20 players stay in Germany and play in the DEL before they move on to North America. Bigger players like Kühnhackl and Noebels would be able to handle playing against men in the DEL at 18,19,20 like Sturm, Goc, etc have done in the past.

The big names of the past were also making Team Germany for the Olympics and World Championships while 19,20,21 because they played in Germany and I think that helps them get the exposure that they need by not playing in the CHL. The great prospects will outgrow the German Junior Leagues by 16 and that is when they could move on to the 2. Bundesliga or DEL as another choice instead of heading to the CHL for a better junior league.

I would really like to see this with some of the 95 prospects to stay in Germany longer than the last 3-4 years. Draisaitl already has outgrown the DNL, but he has the size and skill to move on to play with the men in the 2. Bundesliga and possibly the DEL by 18.
Yes, the last is a very good point. I think it is also mentioned in th study you linked, that for players from countries other than the big five Sweden, Russia, Finland, Czech Republic and Slovakia (I assume these were meant with the top 5 countries) the CHL can be a good route, when they don't get a chance to play against men at a young age.

Therefore players who have a chance to play in 2.Bundesliga or even Oberliga at age 17-18 should do that, as long as they get to play significant roles. But if they are stuck in the DNL at age 18+ it would probably better to play a year or two in the CHL.

Some years back however, it was never even an issue because most teams wouldn't have risked giving a roster spot to a 17 or 18 year old. Lately things have improved and thus I totally expect more players to stay here since they are now getting a chance to turn pro at a young age.

Players like Akdag, Schüle, L.Braun, V.Schlenker, El-Sayed, Supis and others have done well recently. Granted none of them were ever really considered as NHL prospects, but they all started in the DEL at a very young age.

I would love to see a healthy mix of players who are legitimate NHL prospects going to the CHL and staying in Germany to play in the DEL.

One thing I'd also like to add is that, as thrilled as I would be to see more young quality players in the top leagues in Germany, I really hope the policy of the DEL changes a little bit and allows the game to be a bit more physical. Not more violent, just more physical. That way I would enjoy watching it even more and I think it would help the young players here to compete at an international level.

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04-18-2012, 10:11 PM
  #29
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You cannot compare the DEL or Germany with Sweden. I do believe that it might be better for prospects from SWE or FIN to stay there before going overseas as a pro. But i don't think that Draisaitl or others could learn much more in der DNL, where he has dominated already.

And he's way too young for the DEL as i don't think he'll get enough playing time there. Even if he might play in the Oberliga or 2. Bundesliga i think it would be much better for him to go to the CHL and play against the best prospects in the world. He's so young. It would still be two full years there before he's draft eligable. But it's up to him. If he's ready, he should go. Otherwise next year.

The DNL might be a good product. But the biggest problem for young german prospects is that there's no high level development league for them at a point when the DNL becomes too weak for them.

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04-19-2012, 10:48 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by JoeLH View Post
You cannot compare the DEL or Germany with Sweden. I do believe that it might be better for prospects from SWE or FIN to stay there before going overseas as a pro. But i don't think that Draisaitl or others could learn much more in der DNL, where he has dominated already.

And he's way too young for the DEL as i don't think he'll get enough playing time there. Even if he might play in the Oberliga or 2. Bundesliga i think it would be much better for him to go to the CHL and play against the best prospects in the world. He's so young. It would still be two full years there before he's draft eligable. But it's up to him. If he's ready, he should go. Otherwise next year.

The DNL might be a good product. But the biggest problem for young german prospects is that there's no high level development league for them at a point when the DNL becomes too weak for them.
I understand that the DEL isn't the top league in Europe, but that is why it is good for younger players. They are playing in a mens league, but it isn't something that is above their head. All 7 current German NHL players were DEL players and didn't come over for the CHL, so it has worked in the past. The top German prospects can get good ice time in 2. Bundesliga and Oberliga. If they are special enough to be an NHL prospect they are likely to be ready for the DEL at 17 or 18.

Of course now the option of the CHL has become a popular route for German players, but I feel this should be for the German prospects that wouldn't get enough ice time playing in a mens league in Germany. Players like Rieder and Kühnhackl would be DEL players right now. They were already contributing in the 2. Bundesliga before they went to the CHL.

I agree 100% that the DNL isn't a good top development junior league. A top player should be out of the DNL after 16 and moving on to the path of pro German hockey or the CHL depending on various factors; size, expected playing time, if they are ready to leave home, etc.

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04-19-2012, 11:46 AM
  #31
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Hardly any player is DEL-ready at age 17. They may be able to somewhat hold their own, but none of them would be trusted with playing more than 5 minutes a game. The DEL is not a place for a young player, especially for forwards. Playing 2.Bundesliga isn't bad, as long as you get the icetime. Icetime is what matters the most. Way too many players wasted years of their career on hardly any icetime.

I don't think that the current NHL-players are a particularly good example. Sturm and Hecht played in the mid-90s, the current DEL is completely different from how it was back then. Goc played on money-starved Schwenningen and it took quite a few injuries before he really got his chance and took off. Afterwards he was hurt by being relegated to lower lines in Mannheim.

Defenseman have got it a bit easier, but again, neither Seidenberg nor Ehrhoff are particularly good examples. Both were drafted in 2001, but Seidenberg was eligible in 1999 and Ehrhoff in 2000. Seidenberg didn't play in the DEL until the season after he was first draft eligible, and that was only three games. Ehrhoff got a small taste of the DEL in what should have been his draft-year, but wasn't close to establishing himself in the league either.

There certainly is nothing wrong with staying in Germany, some players would have fared better if they had stayed, others would have fared better if they had gone over. Kühnhackl got a few games in the DEL, he didn't look good at all. And while both Kühnhackl and Rieder had a lot of success for their age in the 2.Bundesliga, both got their icetime reduced when it mattered most. If even the very best we had in years get that kind of treatment, how is anyone supposed to play a significant role in the DEL at that age?

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04-19-2012, 02:20 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Sanderson View Post
Hardly any player is DEL-ready at age 17. They may be able to somewhat hold their own, but none of them would be trusted with playing more than 5 minutes a game. The DEL is not a place for a young player, especially for forwards. Playing 2.Bundesliga isn't bad, as long as you get the icetime. Icetime is what matters the most. Way too many players wasted years of their career on hardly any icetime.

I don't think that the current NHL-players are a particularly good example. Sturm and Hecht played in the mid-90s, the current DEL is completely different from how it was back then. Goc played on money-starved Schwenningen and it took quite a few injuries before he really got his chance and took off. Afterwards he was hurt by being relegated to lower lines in Mannheim.

Defenseman have got it a bit easier, but again, neither Seidenberg nor Ehrhoff are particularly good examples. Both were drafted in 2001, but Seidenberg was eligible in 1999 and Ehrhoff in 2000. Seidenberg didn't play in the DEL until the season after he was first draft eligible, and that was only three games. Ehrhoff got a small taste of the DEL in what should have been his draft-year, but wasn't close to establishing himself in the league either.

There certainly is nothing wrong with staying in Germany, some players would have fared better if they had stayed, others would have fared better if they had gone over. Kühnhackl got a few games in the DEL, he didn't look good at all. And while both Kühnhackl and Rieder had a lot of success for their age in the 2.Bundesliga, both got their icetime reduced when it mattered most. If even the very best we had in years get that kind of treatment, how is anyone supposed to play a significant role in the DEL at that age?
I agree 100% with the ice time part. If the player isn't getting enough time to make an impact then it doesn't make sense to play there. But many players have to deal with this their first year in a new league.

Rieder started to lose ice time later in the season for Kitchner last year and wasn't a factor in the playoffs. Lower ice time can sometimes be a good way of getting players accustomed to the new speed. I feel Rieder would have a had a huge year last year if he played a 2nd season in the 2. Bundesliga with some call ups to the DEL. Of course as we can witness he has become a top player in the OHL this season. I'm very happy that a German player is #1 in playoff scoring so far. I can't argue with that season and growth, but it could have been a similar breakout here in Germany after a 2nd season. This can't be proven and maybe he would have not developed the same way, but I think we could all agree it would have been very interesting to see Rieder playing in Germany still.

I also agree 17 or 18 is too young for a full time player, but getting 10-15 games of experience in the DEL would be a good way to gauge where they are at. It is just like any younger player in a pro league. They will not get top 6 minutes right away unless they are a generational talent.

Overall, I just want to see more young talent stay in Germany longer, so there is excitement in watching games with NHL level prospects in them and not seeing them leave before they become impact players, even if it is in the 2. Bundesliga.

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