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Bob Cole Divisional Semifinals: Chicago vs. Philadelphia

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Old
04-16-2012, 06:29 PM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Bob Cole Divisional Semifinals: Chicago vs. Philadelphia

Chicago Shamrocks


Head Coach: Tommy Ivan
Goaltending Coach: Warren Strelow
Captain: Bill Cook
Alternate Captains: Reg Noble, Art Ross, Ching Johnson

Reg Noble - Howie Morenz - Vladimir Martinec
George Hay - Frank Fredrickson - Bill Cook
Marty Pavelich - Ken Mosdell - John "Pie" McKenzie
Tommy Smith - Doug Weight - Bruce MacGregor


Bill Quackenbush
- Ching Johnson
Art Ross - Bob Goldham
Brian Engblom - Ted Green

Tom Barrasso
Mike Liut

Spares: Metro Prystai (LW/C/RW), Mathieu Schneider (D), Joe Watson (D)

PP1
Vladimir Martinec - Howie Morenz - Bill Cook
Bill Quackenbush - Art Ross

PP2
Tommy Smith - Frank Fredrickson - George Hay
Ted Green - Doug Weight

PK1
Marty Pavelich - Ken Mosdell
Ching Johnson - Bob Goldham

PK2
Reg Noble - Bruce MacGregor
Brian Engblom - Bill Quackenbush/Ted Green

Extra PK F: Howie Morenz/Ted Green
Extra PK D: Bill Quackenbush/Ted Green


Vs



Philadelphia Flyers
Head Coach: Lindy Ruff
Captain: Ebbie Goodfellow
Alternate Captains: Gordie Howe, Trevor Linden

Paul Kariya-Joe Nieuwendyk-Gordie Howe(A)
Dickie Moore-Joe Primeau-Babe Dye
Adam Graves-Fred Stanfield-Harry Hyland
Reg Fleming-Trevor Linden(A)-Kenny Wharram
Neal Broten, Bill Thoms, Victor Shalimov

Borje Salming-Leo Boivin
Ebbie Goodfellow(C)-Leo Reise Jr.
Reed Larson-Dallas Smith
Doug Barkley

Jiri Holecek
Henrik Lundqvist


PP1

Kariya-Nieuwendyk-Howe
Salming-Larson

PP2

Moore-Primeau-Dye
Goodfellow-Stanfield

PK1

Primeau-Fleming
Salming-Smith

PK2

Moore-Linden
Goodfellow-Reise

PK3

Graves-Howe
Boivin-Smith

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04-17-2012, 10:30 AM
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BillyShoe1721
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Since my opponent is stacking his top pair, I will also. Salming-Goodfellow will be my top pairing, and Boivin-Reise the 2nd pairing. Adam Graves will also be moving to the 2nd PK unit, and Moore down to the 3rd unit.

These two teams look to be very close, and it should be a very good matchup. Right off the bat, I see an advantage in first lines for Philadelphia, a better #1 defenseman(and maybe better first pairing, but that will require closer examination), and an advantage in net as well.

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04-17-2012, 06:21 PM
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1st Lines

Kariya-Nieuwendyk-Howe vs. Noble-Morenz-Martinec

I'm not really a fan of Reg Noble where he gets drafted. He provides good positional versatility, but I don't think he shows an elite enough level at either position to justify him being selected in the top 200. As a first liner, his offense leaves a good bit to be desired. 3rd, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, and 8th, all in a pre-consolidation NHL, is not impressive at all. That equates to probably one top 10 in finish in points in his career. His percentages look even less impressive. 83, 54, 72, 68, 72, 68, 74, and 50. Only one season of more than 80% of 2nd place in production in a split league is pretty bad for a first liner. Maybe if he was an elite puck-winner or a tremendous two-way player it could work, but he was just above average in these areas, providing enough to be a glue guy but not much else. I really don't understand why he's drafted so high. It's not like he was anything special in the playoffs either, with 4 points in 18 games. I think Reg Noble is going to slow down the effectiveness of this line with his lack of offensive ability. On the other hand, Kariya boasts stronger offense in a much deeper era. He's easily a much better offensive player than Noble. Noble brings some toughness and two-way play, but not nearly enough of it to make up for the large advantage that Kariya owns in offensive play.

Comparing Nieuwendyk and Morenz would be a waste of my time. Morenz is better by a very large margin.

Much like comparing Nieuwendyk to Morenz would be a waste of time, comparing Martinec to Howe would be a waste of my time as well. Howe blows him out of the water in offense, toughness, and two-way play. Howe is significantly better, just like Morenz. I like Martinec a lot as a player and really thought about picking him at #190 when I picked Babe Dye, but I couldn't turn down Dye's goalscoring ability.

Overall, the first lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. Just like my first round matchup, our advantage on the wings is what gives us the superior first line.

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04-17-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Since my opponent is stacking his top pair, I will also. Salming-Goodfellow will be my top pairing, and Boivin-Reise the 2nd pairing. Adam Graves will also be moving to the 2nd PK unit, and Moore down to the 3rd unit.
I don't see that as a very good more. He's got Morenz and Cook on different lines, and if you load up one pair, they'll have a field day taking on a very weak pairing.

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04-17-2012, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I don't see that as a very good more. He's got Morenz and Cook on different lines, and if you load up one pair, they'll have a field day taking on a very weak pairing.
I'm not so sure. My first pairing(if it's Salming-Goodfellow) seems tailor made to stopping Morenz and Martinec. Those two are extremely mobile, and able to keep up with those two speedsters. They also still bring a good bit of physicality as well. Then you have Cook, whose game is very much a power forward game with skill, which plays right into the strengths of Leo Reise and Leo Boivin, two tremendously physical players that won't be intimidated by Cook. But, this is only effective if I can get the matchups I want. I'd like to know what others think before I make a definite decision.

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04-17-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
1st Lines

Kariya-Nieuwendyk-Howe vs. Noble-Morenz-Martinec

I'm not really a fan of Reg Noble where he gets drafted. He provides good positional versatility, but I don't think he shows an elite enough level at either position to justify him being selected in the top 200. As a first liner, his offense leaves a good bit to be desired. 3rd, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, and 8th, all in a pre-consolidation NHL, is not impressive at all. That equates to probably one top 10 in finish in points in his career. His percentages look even less impressive. 83, 54, 72, 68, 72, 68, 74, and 50. Only one season of more than 80% of 2nd place in production in a split league is pretty bad for a first liner. Maybe if he was an elite puck-winner or a tremendous two-way player it could work, but he was just above average in these areas, providing enough to be a glue guy but not much else. I really don't understand why he's drafted so high. It's not like he was anything special in the playoffs either, with 4 points in 18 games. I think Reg Noble is going to slow down the effectiveness of this line with his lack of offensive ability. On the other hand, Kariya boasts stronger offense in a much deeper era. He's easily a much better offensive player than Noble. Noble brings some toughness and two-way play, but not nearly enough of it to make up for the large advantage that Kariya owns in offensive play.

Comparing Nieuwendyk and Morenz would be a waste of my time. Morenz is better by a very large margin.

Much like comparing Nieuwendyk to Morenz would be a waste of time, comparing Martinec to Howe would be a waste of my time as well. Howe blows him out of the water in offense, toughness, and two-way play. Howe is significantly better, just like Morenz. I like Martinec a lot as a player and really thought about picking him at #190 when I picked Babe Dye, but I couldn't turn down Dye's goalscoring ability.

Overall, the first lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. Just like my first round matchup, our advantage on the wings is what gives us the superior first line.
I'm about to run out the door to the Hawks game, so I don't have a real response to your post, just more of a general comment...Why is this a good way to compare these 2 lines? It's extremely clear on each line who the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd best players are at their positions. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare Morenz to Howe, Martinec to Kariya, and Noble to Nieuwendyk? Or look at the lines as a whole unit, because that is how they will be functioning? I just don't see how the LW-LW, C-C, RW-RW comparison tells us much at all here. I think we can agree it's certainly not as simple as advantage LW Philly, advantage RW Philly, advantage C Chicago...Philly wins 2-1.

Just to clarify, picking apart players like you did with Noble is fine, and you do make some comments as to how he will work with the line. I think it would be much more productive and helpful to the voters if we stuck to stuff like that.


Here's to a good series.

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04-17-2012, 11:46 PM
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Gotta get to bed, so still no time for a full response, but here are consolidated scoring finishes for Reg Noble provided by Dreakmur...



Points – 5th(1918), 10th(1920), 16th(1919), 16th(1921), 17th(1924), 18th(1922), 18th(1923)

Goals – 6th(1918), 9th(1920), 11th(1921), 17th(1919), 20th(1922)

Assists – 4th(1918), 10th(1920), 13th(1923), 14th(1922), 15th(1919), 15th(1924), 17th(1921)

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04-17-2012, 11:58 PM
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2nd Lines

Moore-Primeau-Dye vs. Hay-Fredrickson-Cook

Moore is a better player than George Hay in every facet of the game. Offensively, defensively, physicality. I don't think I need to go very in-depth with this one. I do have a question about George Hay's bio though. It says that he was a 2x 1st Team All Star, in 1927 and 1928. They didn't start to name post-season all stars until 1930, so I was wondering where this came from. Is it from a newspaper or a GM that named his all star team for the season? Or Hart voting? Just wondering.

Primeau and Fredrickson is a much closer comparison that is going to require going into more detail. Both are good two-way players, but Primeau is an elite defensive player, whereas Fredrickson is just an above average defensive player. Here's a look at percentages:

Fredrickson: 86, 103, 100, 137, 100, 94* (Total 620)
Primeau: 85, 100, 73, 100, 64 (Total 422)

*WCHL, Vs1(Bill Cook). Doing a Vs2 in the WCHL would be idiotic.

Fredrickson's offense appears to be better. But, consider that it game in a PCHA with 3 teams in it, and players like Nighbor, Dye, Denneny, Malone, and Lalonde had moved on to the NHL at this point. And Bill Cook and Keats were in the WCHL. Primeau's finishes came in a consolidated NHL, but he did have very strong linemates. If you use Vs1 for Fredrickson's years in the PCHA, it looks like this:

Fredrickson: 86, 100, 83, 100, 93, 94* (Total 556)

I'd like to know how people perceive using Vs1 compared to Vs2 in this era of split leagues, especially a 3 team PCHA. It seems reasonable to me considering how spread out the talent was at the time, but I might be out in left field there. Either way, Fredrickson looks like the better offensive player. Primeau holds the advantage on defense. These guys are both very close, and I'm not sure if you can definitively call one better than the other. If you want better offense, Fredrickson is your guy. If you want good offense and elite defensive play, Primeau is your guy.

Bill Cook is a great guy to have on a 2nd line. He's probably the best 2nd liner in this entire draft. He's a great power forward and tremendous goal scorer. Babe Dye is one of the best goal scoring players on a 2nd line in this draft, but he's not as good as Cook. Cook gets the advantage here for sure. One issue you could have here is that your only puck-winner(Cook) is also your best shooter. I don't think it's ideal that the guy that is going to be working in the corners be the guy that will be relied upon the most as a shooter, but it can still work. I think I said this during assassinations, about your team or another. I got criticized because I have Howe as my puck-winner, but Howe is not the main shooter on my line(Nieuwendyk is). It doesn't kill the line, but I don't think it's ideal. In an attempt to compare their offense, here is a % comparison:

Goals

Cook: 100*, 100*, 132, 64, 71, 71, 100, 100***, 104, 84 (Total 926)
Dye: 100, 97, 100, 73, 100, 53, 100** (Total 623)

*Vs1 from WCHL
**Vs2, consolidated NHL, all others are Vs1
***Led the league in goals, tied with Conacher

Cook is definitely the better goal-scorer. But, Dye is no slouch either.

Points

Cook: 100*, 100*, 100*, 103, 61, 79, 95, 88, 96, 114, 57, 77 (Total 1070)
Dye: 93, 83, 100, 79, 100, 55, 83** (Total 593)

*WCHL, doing a Vs2 in the WCHL doesn't tell us much considering the depth of the league
**Vs2, consolidated NHL. All other finishes of Dye's are Vs1

Here, Cook's playmaking abilities show how offensively dominant he was. Dye's point totals suffer because he was very much a guy that had to do everything by himself whereas Bill Cook had the advantage of his brother and Frank Boucher feeding him pucks. Cook is most definitely the better goal scorer and point producer, but not by as much as the numbers say because of the strength of Cook's linemates compared to the guys Dye played with.

The 2nd lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. On the 2nd lines, Chicago has a small advantage offensively by having the best offensive player in Bill Cook, and a slightly better offensive player at center. But, Philadelphia's group is much better defensively, enough to close the smaller gap in offense. Primeau and Moore are by far the two best defensive players on either line, being known as some of the best two-way players of their time. Next is Fredrickson who is above average defensively, and then 3 non-factors in Dye, Cook, and Hay. George Hay is the worst player on either line, and I'm not sure exactly what purpose he's serving here. He has two top 10s(66 and 90 percent Vs2) post-consolidation and 58, 78, 69, and 70 Vs1 in the WCHL/WHL. That doesn't include the 22-23 season where he was 3rd in points. I can't find who was first, but I know Keats was 2nd with 37 points to Hay's 36. If he brought grit or two-way play to the table I could see it, but right now I'm not seeing him as a guy that brings a whole lot to the table on a 2nd line.

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04-18-2012, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I do have a question about George Hay's bio though. It says that he was a 2x 1st Team All Star, in 1927 and 1928. They didn't start to name post-season all stars until 1930, so I was wondering where this came from. Is it from a newspaper or a GM that named his all star team for the season? Or Hart voting? Just wondering.
This was an actual vote by all the GMs. They held these GM votes for at least 4 seasons before the NHL had official teams.

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04-18-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
This was an actual vote by all the GMs. They held these GM votes for at least 4 seasons before the NHL had official teams.
Do you happen to have the results for these? This is the first I'm hearing of them.

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04-18-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Do you happen to have the results for these? This is the first I'm hearing of them.
I've seen the 1928 team quoted several times around here...I think the full results might be in the dishing the dirt thread. I'm not sure if I've seen the 1927 results myself (the bulk of that bio was done by Dreakmur).

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04-18-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Do you happen to have the results for these? This is the first I'm hearing of them.
We have the full result of the 1928 team. It was posted in the Dishing the Dirt thread and in the awards thread on HOH.

We have bits and pieces of other teams from different sources - I think George Hay's LOH profile mentioned his teams

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04-18-2012, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Do you happen to have the results for these? This is the first I'm hearing of them.
Just bits and pieces. George Hay was voted an all-star by the GMs (10) in 1927, and then by the coaches (10) in 1928.

Here is where I found out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame
Hay was dealt to Detroit for the 1927-28 season and enjoyed his best campaign, leading the club in goals and points. The 10 NHL coaches selected an All-Star team that year and he was named on the forward line with Howie Morenz and Bill Cook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legeds of Hockey
He was named to the "unofficial" NHL All-Star team, as selected by the managers, in 1927.....

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04-18-2012, 03:27 PM
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3rd Lines

Graves-Stanfield-Hyland vs. Pavelich-Mosdell-McKenzie

I assume you took Pavelich as the guy that you plan on playing against all the great RWs in our division. So, I'm assuming this is going to be the guy that you match up against Gordie Howe. If I were you, that's what I'd do. Pavelich is one of the best all time in terms of defensive forwards, but offers little else. Graves is also a strong defensive player, three times being top two in Selke voting among LWs. Graves should have some great battles with the physical Cook, just like Pavelich will have some battles with Howe and Dye. Pavelich is a great checker, but offers little in terms of offense. Pavelich's career adjusted PPG(adjusted games as well) is .446 over 762 games. Graves' is .543 over 1,152 games. Advantage to Graves there for sure. Graves also brings a lot of toughness to the table, something that I don't think Pavelich has any of. In terms of overall play, I think Graves is the better overall player. For the role you are using this 3rd line though, I can see why Pavelich would be a better choice.

Ken Mosdell and Fred Stanfield are both decent two-way centers here. Mosdell is an interesting case. He could play offense when he needed to, and produced a couple of solid seasons. But otherwise, he was forced into a defensive role. And from the looks of the rest of the 3rd line, that's the role he's going to be taking here. Defensively, Mosdell gets the nod over Stanfield. Mosdell has just two season of relevant offense(81 and 73 Vs2=154). Stanfield has 76, 50, 59, 65(Vs3), 67, and 75=392. Stanfield definitely gets the edge offensively. Defensively, Mosdell is a better player. Stanfield brings a bit of physicality to the table as well. Overall, these two guys are pretty close and I'm not sure you could call it one way or another.

That takes us to Hyland and McKenzie. Hyland is here to score goals, and he's the best offensive player on either line. He scored at a higher clip to Didier Pitre over both of their entire NHA careers over just 12 fewer games. McKenzie was a guy that could put up some points, but definitely benefited from two more talented linemates in Bucyk and Stanfield. McKenzie brings toughness and some defensive play. Hyland was a little guy, but was scrappy and didn't back down. But, he's not on the level of McKenzie physically. I think Hyland's offensive abilities more than make up for McKenzie's advantages in other areas, and that Hyland is the better overall player.

Overall, 3rd lines are an advantage to Philadelphia. In a vacuum, Philadelphia's group is more talented. They are most definitely better offensively by a pretty large margin. Chicago's group is definitely better defensively. There's a difference in philosophy between how these two lines are built. Chicago's is built as a shutdown unit, and Philadelphia's is built as a two-way unit that can play in all situations. I think this is a result of how the top 6s of the two teams are built. Chicago's top 6 is mostly offense-focused, whereas Philadelphia's top 6 puts more of an emphasis on two-way play, especially on the 2nd line. As a result, we can get away with more of a scoring 3rd line compared to a shutdown 3rd line.

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04-18-2012, 03:52 PM
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Does the stanfield/mosdell comparison account for the fact that Stanfield played most of the PP on a really potent Boston unit? I'd be more interested in an ES comparison of these two.

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04-18-2012, 04:00 PM
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Does the stanfield/mosdell comparison account for the fact that Stanfield played most of the PP on a really potent Boston unit? I'd be more interested in an ES comparison of these two.
Checkers in the O6 rarely played on the PP (Mosdell obviously did when Lach was hurt).

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04-18-2012, 04:11 PM
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Does the stanfield/mosdell comparison account for the fact that Stanfield played most of the PP on a really potent Boston unit? I'd be more interested in an ES comparison of these two.
No, that's just straight up offense. We don't know how many points were scored on the PP for Mosdell in those years, so I'm not sure how we could exactly do that. He was the #1 center those 2 years when Lach was hurt, so he definitely spent a decent amount of time on the power play. Stanfield definitely has PP points to help his numbers. I calculated that he averaged 20.9PPP over 82 games in his career. Stanfield is on my 2nd unit PP on the point, so he's not losing all of his PP offense here.

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04-18-2012, 04:13 PM
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Adam Graves was also a big time PP player, at least in New York.

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04-18-2012, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
No, that's just straight up offense. We don't know how many points were scored on the PP for Mosdell in those years, so I'm not sure how we could exactly do that. He was the #1 center those 2 years when Lach was hurt, so he definitely spent a decent amount of time on the power play. Stanfield definitely has PP points to help his numbers. I calculated that he averaged 20.9PPP over 82 games in his career. Stanfield is on my 2nd unit PP on the point, so he's not losing all of his PP offense here.
right, but you're comparing 3rd lines, not PP units.

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04-18-2012, 05:33 PM
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Hawkey Town 18
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Fred Stanfield ES Pts ranks from 1967-68 to 1975-76
12, 12, 19, 33, 45, 59 (rest outside top 100)


Adam Graves ES Pts ranks from 1991-92 to 1999-00
42, 54, 57, 63, 99, 99 (rest outside top 100)

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04-18-2012, 07:04 PM
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I'm going to wait for Billy to do his full analysis before I make my comments about this matchup. I have a little time right now, so I'm going to defend one of my players that Billy has called out, Reg Noble.


I think Reg Noble is a great fit for this line. He is one of the few glue guys that actually has the speed to keep up with Morenz and Martinec. He's a physical presence and good defensive conscience for the line. His offense doesn't stand out, but that isn't his main responsibility on this line, Morenz and Martinec will be doing that. Noble is good enough to chip in offensively when the opportunity is presented and is a pretty good playmaker for a winger, He certainly won't slow the line down. (For Noble's consolidated scoring finishes see post #7 of this thread)


Billy commented that Noble was just above average in puck-winning and two-way play. I think he is very good at those two roles. The fact that he was able to successfully play as a defenseman should speak to his defensive abilities.

Here are some quotes from his bio...
Quote:
one loyal fan used to wind up a siren whenever Noble stole the puck from an opposing attacker, sending the rest of the crowd into a frenzy. Noble's poke-check to thwart the enemy became nearly as famous as his goal-scoring exploits.
Does this sound like someone who is just above average? He became so well-known for stealing the puck that the fans made a ritual out of it with a siren.


Here are some quotes about Noble's physical play from his bio...
Quote:
He had an iron constitution and my players told me that every time they came into bodily contact with him, they were jarred from head to foot

...

Noble was a gritty competitor. A fireplug of a player

Here are some more supporting quotes not found in his bio that I came across today...

Ottawa Citizen - April 1, 1927
Quote:
Morenz was running wild around the ice, with Noble the only Maroon who could hold him

The Calgary Daily Herald - Nov. 12, 1930
Quote:
A little more than a minute of play had elapsed when Reg Noble, rugged Detroit defenceman charged through the local rearguard for the first tally of the game.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Dec. 5, 1927
Quote:
The speedy drives of Reg Noble, star defense man for the Cougars, were outstanding...

The Border Cities Star - Nov. 18, 1932
Quote:
Noble was voted the most valuable player to the Falcons last year

The Morning Leader - April, 23 1917
Quote:
According to Captain Frank Foyston, the most valuable player in the Pacific Coast Hockey league and bulwark of the Seattle champions, Reg Noble made a big difference in the play of the Montreal Canadiens in the games at San Francisco

This last one is more for fun...just a little something to show how beloved he was by the fans when he finally joined the team after a contract dispute...

The Border Cities Star - Nov. 23, 1932
Quote:
When Noble went into action mid-way through the second period in place of Doug Young he received probably the greatest ovation ever tendered a professional puck-chaser at Olympia. The big crowd rose to its feet as if touched by a magic wand, shouted, stamped, cheered and hand-clapped a noisy welcome

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04-18-2012, 11:13 PM
  #22
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Billy commented that Noble was just above average in puck-winning and two-way play. I think he is very good at those two roles. The fact that he was able to successfully play as a defenseman should speak to his defensive abilities.
By #2 defenseman Ebbie Goodfellow switched to defense after 6 successful years as a high scoring forward, where there is no indication that he was anything of a two-way player. Yet, he turned into one of the best defensemen of his time. It suggests he might have been good defensively as a forward, but that doesn't automatically make it the case. And in the cases of guys like Mohns and Gerard, I don't know of any evidence saying that they were good defensive players at forward. Certainly, there are cases like Red Kelly, or Babe Siebert where they were strong defensive players at forward as well, but it is certainly not a guarantee.

Quote:
Does this sound like someone who is just above average? He became so well-known for stealing the puck that the fans made a ritual out of it with a siren.
The quote sounds like something from a defenseman, but the time frame indicates he was a forward. The fact that the quote follows with something about his poke-checking prowess again makes it sound like it's a defenseman, but the time frame and his scoring indicates forward. So, this is evidence of defensive ability as a forward.

Quote:
Here are some quotes about Noble's physical play from his bio...
According to the position by years in your bio, the quote about being a gritty competitor and a fireplug come from his time as a Red Wing, when he was a defenseman.

Quote:
Here are some more supporting quotes not found in his bio that I came across today...

Ottawa Citizen - April 1, 1927

The Calgary Daily Herald - Nov. 12, 1930

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette - Dec. 5, 1927

The Border Cities Star - Nov. 18, 1932
These are all from Reg Noble's time as a defenseman. How about some stuff about his time as a forward?

Quote:
The Morning Leader - April, 23 1917
This is from his time as a forward, but tells us nothing about his grit or two-way play.

There is circumstantial evidence of him being a good two-way player at forward and one good quote. It's something, but I still don't think it's enough to call him "very good".

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04-18-2012, 11:48 PM
  #23
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4th Lines

Fleming-Linden-Wharram vs. Smith-Weight-MacGregor

Smith is definitely a better player than Fleming. I drafted Reg Fleming knowing that he was far from the best player available because I wanted a guy that was tough, and had experience shadowing opposing players. Smith's offense is significantly better. He brings some grit, but not as much as Fleming. Smith gets the advantage here.

Weight's career adjusted PPG is .89 over 1,238 games, and Linden's is .632 over 1,382 games. Linden's PPG in the playoffs raises to .8 over 124 games to Weight's .74 over 97 games. Weight is the better offensive player. Linden brings stronger two-way play and physicality to the table. For an offensively-leaning 4th line, Weight is your guy. For a traditional two-way 4th line, Linden is your guy. They're both valuable in their own ways.

MacGregor's career adjusted PPG is .54 over 893 games, and Wharram's is .752 over 766 games. They played in basically the same era, so I'm not going to adjust for games played. Point is, Wharram is a better offensive player by a good bit. MacGregor brings more two-way play to the table. Is it enough to make up for the advantage in offense for Wharram? In a vacuum, no. It depends upon what you're looking for in a 4th liner. Want the best player? It's Wharram. Want a traditional 4th liner? It's MacGregor.

The 4th lines are both valuable in different ways. In a vacuum, I'd say that Chicago has the better 4th line because of more offensive talent from Smith and Weight. But, I didn't pick my 4th line based on offense. I picked it to serve as a line that would be difficult to play against that could chip in goals when necessary.

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04-19-2012, 01:27 AM
  #24
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
By #2 defenseman Ebbie Goodfellow switched to defense after 6 successful years as a high scoring forward, where there is no indication that he was anything of a two-way player. Yet, he turned into one of the best defensemen of his time. It suggests he might have been good defensively as a forward, but that doesn't automatically make it the case. And in the cases of guys like Mohns and Gerard, I don't know of any evidence saying that they were good defensive players at forward. Certainly, there are cases like Red Kelly, or Babe Siebert where they were strong defensive players at forward as well, but it is certainly not a guarantee.



The quote sounds like something from a defenseman, but the time frame indicates he was a forward. The fact that the quote follows with something about his poke-checking prowess again makes it sound like it's a defenseman, but the time frame and his scoring indicates forward. So, this is evidence of defensive ability as a forward.



According to the position by years in your bio, the quote about being a gritty competitor and a fireplug come from his time as a Red Wing, when he was a defenseman.



These are all from Reg Noble's time as a defenseman. How about some stuff about his time as a forward?



This is from his time as a forward, but tells us nothing about his grit or two-way play.

There is circumstantial evidence of him being a good two-way player at forward and one good quote. It's something, but I still don't think it's enough to call him "very good".
Yes many of the quotes I found today were from him being a defenseman. There just wasn't anything available for the earlier years, good or bad. However, most of those quotes are about such basic/general aspects of the game that I think it's fair to give him credit...

Talking about his speed...do we really think he was somehow slower when he was younger and playing forward?

Being gritty, rugged, etc. doesn't seem like something that really changes with a position switch. You either have that in you or you don't. Why would he be gritty/physical in his own corners as a defenseman, but not gritty in his opponents' corners as a forward? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Even if you believe he didn't do some of those things as a forward (which I do not agree with), the skill sets are there, and a good coach (which Chicago has) will be able to get that out of him.

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04-19-2012, 02:37 AM
  #25
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Philadelphia's gameplan seems to just to role the lines and get the defensive pairings you want out there. Did you decide yet if you're stacking the top pairing?

What's Chicago's game plan? In general and in dealing with Gordie Howe

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