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Old
04-19-2012, 02:45 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Honestly, I don't think its going to change. Torts is EXTREMELY stubborn, and doesn't seem to want to make adjustments. He doesn't believe his team can carry the offensive play(hence the post game comments of "I thought they played well").

I do not expect it to change at all. Remember, he got out coached by Bruce Boudreau.
I don't expect him to change it, I'm just trying to identify what I think is really wrong here.

I mean, I don't mean to absolve AA, Step, Dubi, etc. from blame, but I think a lot of it has to do with how we're playing too.

I think Dubi still does most of the little things well. I like his game. He's not gonna be the 65 point guy we thought he could be, but he is a great 35-45 point all around contributor. He played over his head last year and we probably overpaid him. If he is moved I'll be sorry to see him go but understand it. There's a chance his offense bounces back, but I think at best he's a 50 point gritty two-way winger now.

Stepan's been very disappointing, but he's young and I still think he's rarely out on a shift in which he's with players that he can succeed with. He needs to play with skilled guys consistently. I hate how Torts insists on spreading our grinders out throughout the entire lineup so that guys like Prust and Fedetenko and Mitchell are racking up ice time. Keep them in the bottom six and keep the bottom six to bottom six minutes. Put the skilled guys together and let them work it out until something develops. I know, that doesn't fit the clamp down and play defensive hockey for 50 minutes philosophy...

Gaborik can't create on his own. It's been said before and it's that simple. He's played okay. He just doesn't create his own opportunities so he looks pretty invisible.

Anisimov we should assume is just going to be a third line center/winger with spurts of offensive creativity but mostly a solid defensive winger. If he never gets paid much more than he makes and he becomes a full-time third liner who we rarely ask for more out of, he will be a good third liner for this team. Asking/expecting more from him is probably misguided.

I like Del Zotto but I don't think he's as invaluable as a puck mover for us as people think. If he looks for a huge pay day, I would consider moving him before overpaying him. I think we need a different puck mover, to be honest, and while it's nice having McD, Staal, Girardi (all three of whom I LOVE and think are studs) I think one of McD/Staal is eventually going to have to go and their spot will have to go to a legit top four puck mover (preferably with a SHOT). MDZ can be our #2 puck mover or can be dealt to help us acquire someone that fits our specific needs better. We need a guy who can rush the puck, push the play, PP the QB, and break the puck out. Again, I like DZ, but I don't think he's as good as others do and I don't think he's going to develop into the KIND of puck mover we're lacking. He can be a compliment to that, or part of finding, should he demand too much money.

I've been disappointed in Richards. It's not that he's played poorly, he just hasn't lived up to expectations. He got hot at the end of the season when the games were almost meaningless (we were going to have home ice as a 1-4 no matter what, pretty much) and now he's gone cold again. If not for that hot stretch at the season his numbers would be abysmally disappointing and right now I don't like his decision making with the puck. He's not the silky passer he was advertised as either and he does not make the PP go the way he's supposed to. He's probably actually my least favorite Ranger right now (but that's largely because of the fact that I love all of our homegrown guys - I don't actually DISLIKE Richards).

Anyhow, I don't actually think the guys individually are playing too badly, except for Stepan having an awful series and Richards/Gaborik not contributing enough. I think we expect too much out of some guys because we had high hopes for them and they didn't reach that ultimate ceiling. Dubi, Cally and AA are all guys who are not as offensively talented as we want them to be. Cally had a great year and Dubi had an off year. When they both play their normal years Dubi is probably a 40ish point guy and Cally is probably a 50ish point guy. Arty is probably a 35-40ish point guy. They're all very responsible, hard-working, reliable two-way guys who I'm happy to have (although Dubi got overpaid). Do I expect them to have combined for more points than they HAVE in this series? Yes. Do I expect them to score a LOT more? Not at all. And part of the reason I think they're not scoring is the "sit on the lead" and try to "hold on" mentality Torts has them playing with.

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04-19-2012, 02:45 PM
  #652
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I'll just reiterate that 5 of the last 6 SC champs went 6 or 7 in the 1st round.

Montreal (6) was tied 2-2 against Boston (3) in 2011
Nashville (7) was up 2-1 against Chicago (2) in 2010
Philly (5) was down 2-3 against Pitts (4) in 2009
Nashville (8) was tied 2-2 against Detroit (1) in 2008
Montreal (7) was tied 2-2 against Carolina (2) in 2006

Montreal has lost two series where they won the 1st two games on the road. They pulled the same thing in 1996 against the Rangers at MSG.

The Rangers will be fine. Ottawa knows if they win, they will be crushed by Boston in the next round. They were supposed to be a bottom-10 team this year. They added a little excitement to their season with some gritty play. Big deal.

Rangers have higher goals. I think they absolutely dominate them in Game 5.

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04-19-2012, 02:49 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by msv957 View Post
Torts has this team playing a defensive minded system exactly how they played it in the regular season. This system had a lot of success in making this team have the best record in the East. It helped Hank to probably get his coveted Vezina stats this year. Why not go with what got you this far? The series is not over.
Because, as I pointed out, 2 goals of support is not enough in the playoffs, to just try and clamp down and hold on. Ottawa is an attacking team, expecting them to score 1 goal each game is not going to work. If they score 2, we have to score 3, which we're not going to do if we stop attacking after a 2 goal lead, early in the game. Part of the great record we had was due to the fact that in the regular season, we could hold on, run the clock down, play a 5 minute 4 on 4 OT (with a point already guaranteed to us by that point), and go to a SO if need be. Now we can't do that. We don't gain anything by going to OT and it's not 5 minutes, nor 4 on 4. It's just another period of hockey, but now we HAVE to score. So what's the point of waiting til OT to attack? Might as well attack before it gets to a sudden death situation and try to give your goalie more than 1 goal of leeway. With 2 goals of support, Henrik is only allowed to give up 1. Not gonna cut it.

21 of our points in the standings this season came from OT/SO wins or OT loser points. There are no SO's/loser points in the playoffs and we seem unable to win a 5 on 5 OT.

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04-19-2012, 02:51 PM
  #654
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I'll just reiterate that 5 of the last 6 SC champs went 6 or 7 in the 1st round.

Montreal (6) was tied 2-2 against Boston (3) in 2011
Nashville (7) was up 2-1 against Chicago (2) in 2010
Philly (5) was down 2-3 against Pitts (4) in 2009
Nashville (8) was tied 2-2 against Detroit (1) in 2008
Montreal (7) was tied 2-2 against Carolina (2) in 2006

Montreal has lost two series where they won the 1st two games on the road. They pulled the same thing in 1996 against the Rangers at MSG.

The Rangers will be fine. Ottawa knows if they win, they will be crushed by Boston in the next round. They were supposed to be a bottom-10 team this year. They added a little excitement to their season with some gritty play. Big deal.

Rangers have higher goals. I think they absolutely dominate them in Game 5.
We can't dominate them if we decide to play large portions of the game in our end. Simple as that.

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04-19-2012, 02:51 PM
  #655
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I dont know. Were you freaking out after Vancouver's game 1 win, with the blown late lead? I wasnt. The Rangers dominated that game from start to near finish.

These two OT losses are disconcerting, because in both of them, the Rangers blew a lead and were scored on at the opening of OT.

The manner in which the Rangers are losing, and the way they are not dictating the play, is why people are really freaking out. If the Rangers were playing sound, coherent hockey and losing because of opposing goaltending, it would be easier to stomach.

The sad fact is that the Rangers have not had a dominating performance in a playoff game since the Atlanta series. Fans have every right to be frustrated, especially when they're the favorites.

I still think they win the series, but they do not look like a Cup contender at all. They're luck the field after Ottawa is pretty weak.
Agree 100%. That is exactly the difference. You can stomach a loss where they outplay the opponent for 60 minutes and they somehow still find a way to lose, it happens. Lucky bounces, bad reffing, a rare blunder, whatever it may be. That's tolerable, I won't jump off a cliff because the other team got a break despite being dominated.

However games 1 and 4 were exactly the same where the Rangers scored early and took the foot off the gas which leads to two Ottawa goals. The difference being that game 1 they waited half the game to sit back and scored two more goals, so the end result was a win. I said after that game, a win is great and all, but they have to be better and play 60 minutes, and game 4 is exactly why they needed to do that.

They do not look like a number 1 seed right now and that is the problem. It isn't about losing, it's about HOW they are losing, and that's what pisses me off. If they don't show up for game 5 at home and dominate for a full 60 minutes then they do not deserve to advance. That game was garbage. Henrik responded big after that **** show of a game 2, and now the rest of the team needs to respond to that pathetic showing.

It would also help if Torts learned how to coach to win, not to lose.

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04-19-2012, 02:53 PM
  #656
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Agree 100%. That is exactly the difference. You can stomach a loss where they outplay the opponent for 60 minutes and they somehow still find a way to lose, it happens. Lucky bounces, bad reffing, a rare blunder, whatever it may be. That's tolerable, I won't jump off a cliff because the other team got a break despite being dominated.

However games 1 and 4 were exactly the same where the Rangers scored early and took the foot off the gas which leads to two Ottawa goals. The difference being that game 1 they waited half the game to sit back and scored two more goals, so the end result was a win. I said after that game, a win is great and all, but they have to be better and play 60 minutes, and game 4 is exactly why they needed to do that.

They do not look like a number 1 seed right now and that is the problem. It isn't about losing, it's about HOW they are losing, and that's what pisses me off. If they don't show up for game 5 at home and dominate for a full 60 minutes then they do not deserve to advance. That game was garbage. Henrik responded big after that **** show of a game 2, and now the rest of the team needs to respond to that pathetic showing.

It would also help if Torts learned how to coach to win, not to lose.
Yea, I remember Tom Renney

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04-19-2012, 02:58 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by German Way of War View Post
I'll just reiterate that 5 of the last 6 SC champs went 6 or 7 in the 1st round.

Montreal (6) was tied 2-2 against Boston (3) in 2011
Nashville (7) was up 2-1 against Chicago (2) in 2010
Philly (5) was down 2-3 against Pitts (4) in 2009
Nashville (8) was tied 2-2 against Detroit (1) in 2008
Montreal (7) was tied 2-2 against Carolina (2) in 2006

Montreal has lost two series where they won the 1st two games on the road. They pulled the same thing in 1996 against the Rangers at MSG.

The Rangers will be fine. Ottawa knows if they win, they will be crushed by Boston in the next round. They were supposed to be a bottom-10 team this year. They added a little excitement to their season with some gritty play. Big deal.

Rangers have higher goals. I think they absolutely dominate them in Game 5.
Did all those teams look that bad in their series?

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04-19-2012, 03:02 PM
  #658
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Yea, I remember Tom Renney
Seriously its like Renney 2.0 out there. What happened to "safe is death?"

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04-19-2012, 03:07 PM
  #659
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Seriously its like Renney 2.0 out there. What happened to "safe is death?"
Went out the door as soon as Torts realized he had an elite goalie in net.

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04-19-2012, 03:08 PM
  #660
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Did all those teams look that bad in their series?
Bruins scored a grand total of 1 goal in their 1st two games against MTL last year. I can only imagine what their boards must have looked like.

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04-19-2012, 03:12 PM
  #661
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Bruins scored a grand total of 1 goal in their 1st two games against MTL last year. I can only imagine what their boards must have looked like.
I think we have higher expectations based on our place in the standings.

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04-19-2012, 03:15 PM
  #662
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I think we have higher expectations based on our place in the standings.
Would you rather me compare the Canucks choking a 3-0 series lead in the first round instead? Washington beat us in 5 and then got smoked in the 2nd round.

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04-19-2012, 03:18 PM
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Went out the door as soon as Torts realized he had an elite goalie in net.
Wouldn't it make more sense then to play a more risky game knowing that Hank can bail the team out?

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04-19-2012, 03:21 PM
  #664
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Wouldn't it make more sense then to play a more risky game knowing that Hank can bail the team out?
One would think.

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04-19-2012, 03:39 PM
  #665
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Oh so Torts is a ****** coach again? haha

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04-19-2012, 04:29 PM
  #666
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They do not look like a number 1 seed right now and that is the problem. .
I agree with the substantive complaints that we are sitting on leads, etc., but I disagree with the idea that there is a way for a 1 seed to look. In the modern NHL with parity, there are no easy outs in teh playoffs, and 1 seeds sometimes dont look much different than 8 seeds. To cherry pick a few examples, you have the west's 1 seed down 3-1, you have pitt (who everyone seemed ot think, me included, was the best team in the league) down 3-1, the East's 7 seed giving the 2 seed fits, etc. Even the SC champ bruins needed 7 games (and OT i think) to defeat MTL, and 7 games to defeat TB.

NYR this year seemed like a strong team, but they didn't really dominate games like the 93-94 version did. They just seemed super adept at pulling out wins in very close games. They seem marginally better than the average playoff team perhaps.

Let's hope that in future years our home grown talents improve and we add FAs so that we can become a truly dominant team. But I think we all knew before the playoffs that we were not there yet.

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04-19-2012, 04:38 PM
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Oh so Torts is a ****** coach again? haha
HA! Funny how that works isn't it! That's why the Torts thread was named Torts for Adams/ Fire Torts

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04-19-2012, 04:51 PM
  #668
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I agree with the substantive complaints that we are sitting on leads, etc., but I disagree with the idea that there is a way for a 1 seed to look. In the modern NHL with parity, there are no easy outs in teh playoffs, and 1 seeds sometimes dont look much different than 8 seeds. To cherry pick a few examples, you have the west's 1 seed down 3-1, you have pitt (who everyone seemed ot think, me included, was the best team in the league) down 3-1, the East's 7 seed giving the 2 seed fits, etc. Even the SC champ bruins needed 7 games (and OT i think) to defeat MTL, and 7 games to defeat TB.

NYR this year seemed like a strong team, but they didn't really dominate games like the 93-94 version did. They just seemed super adept at pulling out wins in very close games. They seem marginally better than the average playoff team perhaps.

Let's hope that in future years our home grown talents improve and we add FAs so that we can become a truly dominant team. But I think we all knew before the playoffs that we were not there yet.
A number one seed should look like a team that has the ability to win a majority of the games that they play, thus landing them in the number one position. Especially against teams with a lesser talent or will to win. This team right now does not look like a team that could do that.

If you hit the reset button and count any one of these first 4 playoff games as the first game of the season against the Ottawa Senators who were predicted to not even make the playoffs, would you look at this team and say, "This team will win the East this year."

I wouldn't.

Again, it is different if they dominate the opposition, and still find a way to lose. They look good for 60 minutes, play with some fire, you can stomach a loss and objectively say this team looks like a a 1st place team despite being beat.

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04-19-2012, 04:55 PM
  #669
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What happened to "safe is death?"

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04-19-2012, 04:56 PM
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What happened to "safe is death?"
Its just happened.

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04-19-2012, 04:59 PM
  #671
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Went out the door as soon as Torts realized he had an elite goalie in net.
It went out the door as soon as he realized the team didn't have enough offensive talent to play that way. And they still don't, particularly when they have $4.2 mill tied up in a third line grinder who was supposed to be a top six offensive contributor.

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04-19-2012, 05:02 PM
  #672
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It went out the door as soon as he realized the team didn't have enough offensive talent to play that way. And they still don't, particularly when they have $4.2 mill tied up in a third line grinder who was supposed to be a top six offensive contributor.
Well that too. But even grinders can keep the puck in the opposing team zone.

Don't worry Dubinsky and his 1950's haircut won't be here next season.

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04-19-2012, 05:03 PM
  #673
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Oh so Torts is a ****** coach again? haha
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HA! Funny how that works isn't it! That's why the Torts thread was named Torts for Adams/ Fire Torts
what's not so funny is how much Torts isn't a playoff winning coach anymore. The man simply refuses to make any alterations to his game plan outside of line changes. Rolling 3 lines is killing this team. He makes no in-game adjustments whatsoever.

Him and his wooden Indian assistant can't construct a power play to save their life
Looks to me like he's riding his goalie. Doesn't take much to give away the NZ and have your defense collapse in front of your goalie

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04-19-2012, 05:07 PM
  #674
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Torts is not only an amazing CUP WINNING coach already without being the league for a very long time, but the man should slo be in the running for the Vezina along with Hitch.

He got every ounce from his team in the regular season and in these playoffs despite Ottawa's pressure it is usually much for nothing . Rangers never allow themselves to get hurt by Ottawa's puck possession pressure.

What some of these fans are wanting here is trade chances with Ottawa and abandon what got you 107pts? Well if that is the case it only means more open ice and opportunity for Spezza/Karlsson and if and when Alfredsson gets back (I doubt he gets back at all)

It is the opposition who had to completely change their game in this series and adapt to the NYR style of play. To make the other team play your own style is the best way to go. If the Rangers want to trade chances Ottawa has some players that can score easy effortless goals by just darting through the zone and getting crip passes.

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04-19-2012, 05:10 PM
  #675
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Torts is not only an amazing CUP WINNING coach already without being the league for a very long time, but the man should slo be in the running for the Vezina along with Hitch.

He got every ounce from his team in the regular season and in these playoffs despite Ottawa's pressure it is usually much for nothing . Rangers never allow themselves to get hurt by Ottawa's puck possession pressure.

What some of these fans are wanting here is trade chances with Ottawa and abandon what got you 107pts? Well if that is the case it only means more open ice and opportunity for Spezza/Karlsson and if and when Alfredsson gets back (I doubt he gets back at all)

It is the opposition who had to completely change their game in this series and adapt to the NYR style of play. To make the other team play your own style is the best way to go.
Wha?

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