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Offseason discussion continued (Contract chart in Post #1)

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Old
04-19-2012, 07:33 PM
  #26
AgentM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Shero seems to bust out the most in UFA... I'm too lazy to do the whole list, but most of his UFAs have been busts aside from Sullivan, Michalek and Sarge.
I dunno, I think he's done a lot of good:

2006 - Mark Eaton, Jarkko Ruutu
2007 - Petr Sykora, Ty Conklin
2008 - Matt Cooke, Ruslan Fedotenko, Miroslav Satan
2009 - Mike Rupp, Brent Johnson
2010 - Paul Martin, Zybnek Michalek, Arron Asham

All of those guys contributed to the team's success over the past 6 years to some degree.


I'm sure I'm missing some people, probably ones that sucked too badly for me to remember them

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04-19-2012, 07:47 PM
  #27
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Man, if we get rid of Martin and the cap goes to $70m that's $15m to play with on re-signing and signings. :|
That's alot of money to play around with. If Pens had 15M of play money, i'd hope Shero would go for Suter. When it comes to Letang's raise, i suppose Michalek goes unless cap keeps going up, but ONLY if we have 15M to play with.

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Old
04-19-2012, 07:54 PM
  #28
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Orpik is a question mark. Not sure if time or injuries have limited his play. Martin has to go and Morrow can be the PP with Letang 2014. Depres and Morrow and Letang and maybe Harrington will be the core of the D in 2014 and that leaves a couple spots open so the payroll of the D should allow Pens to extend the offensive guns. Presently Pens have about 30% of cap going to the D. Assuming a cap of 70 million in 2014, Pens may have more room to add a physical D or two.

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Old
04-19-2012, 08:30 PM
  #29
Mr Jiggyfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
I dunno, I think he's done a lot of good:

2006 - Mark Eaton, Jarkko Ruutu
2007 - Petr Sykora, Ty Conklin
2008 - Matt Cooke, Ruslan Fedotenko, Miroslav Satan
2009 - Mike Rupp, Brent Johnson
2010 - Paul Martin, Zybnek Michalek, Arron Asham

All of those guys contributed to the team's success over the past 6 years to some degree.


I'm sure I'm missing some people, probably ones that sucked too badly for me to remember them
Eaton played like 70 games his first two years and couldn't stay healthy... Had a pretty good third year... Then his play really fell off his last season.

Sykora was good his first year, then his soft play got so bad he was benched in the playoffs his second year.

Feds was good the first time Shero signed him and a bust the next season when he gave him another contract...

I just remembered Sarge was a CP signing so all in all Shero hasn't made that many great signings in UFA to be honest. But to his credit only the Martin signing could hurt because of term.

All of the other bad contracts were short term.

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04-19-2012, 08:36 PM
  #30
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I'm not sure what Shero & DB do about the Defense but as bad as Martin was this year, he was pretty exceptional last year, and decent in 09-10. He's a 7+/10 Defender in the right system.

Martin will still have good trade value.
Z is fine, he hasn't been great but he's way better than Orpik.
If we can find a big shutdown guy then I'd hope we move Orpik.

We've drafted A LOT of Defense. They need to start filling in the 3-6 slots.

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Old
04-19-2012, 08:40 PM
  #31
eXile59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
I dunno, I think he's done a lot of good:

2006 - Mark Eaton, Jarkko Ruutu
2007 - Petr Sykora, Ty Conklin
2008 - Matt Cooke, Ruslan Fedotenko, Miroslav Satan
2009 - Mike Rupp, Brent Johnson
2010 - Paul Martin, Zybnek Michalek, Arron Asham

All of those guys contributed to the team's success over the past 6 years to some degree.


I'm sure I'm missing some people, probably ones that sucked too badly for me to remember them
He's at his best when he signs complementary players & doesn't buy into the high priced guys. That's why I don't want to see anymore high priced Free Agents. I would rather that money be put towards resigning core players who have proven to flourish in this system & organization.

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Old
04-19-2012, 09:02 PM
  #32
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Is Paul Martin a good hockey player? Yes.
Is he a good Penguin? No.
Well put, Eyes of Orpik.

In honor of last night's Martin-absent game, I present...

MARTINWATCH

Teams That We Know Won't Be on Paul Martin's NTC
1. Pittsburgh - Current Team; That leaves 29

Teams That We Suspect Won't Be on Paul Martin's NTC
Teams Unlikely To Trade for Paul Martin are in Italics
1. Minnesota - Hometown; In the playoff hunt for a large part of the season
2. New Jersey - Former Team
3. New York Rangers - Contender
4. Philadelphia - Contender

5. Boston - Contender
6. Buffalo - Always competing for a playoff spot; owner devoted to victory; Low cap space
7. Florida - It's sunny; GM willing to take on contracts; Age-wise, a fit for the locker room; Cap space
8. Washington - A contender; They believe they're loaded on defense (Not far from the truth, but yeah)
9. Winnipeg - Passionate fanbase; Desire to win and win soon
10. Tampa Bay - Have the cap space; For some reason, I think Paul Martin would be highly successful as a member of the Lightning.
11. Vancouver - Contender.
12. St Louis - A contender with several expiring FA contracts on defense and a lot of cap space.
13. Nashville - Unlikely to replace Ryan Suter with Paul Martin.
14. Detroit - Unlikely to replace Nick Lidstrom with Paul Martin.
15. Chicago - Learned their lesson last time: Will have cap space available for depth players.
16. San Jose - Defensive investment was made last offseason. But, their front office can be a bit zany.
17. Los Angeles - A contender, yes. But, they just traded Jack Johnson.
18. Colorado - Young team that reminds me a bit of the Penguins (Moreso than Edmonton at least).
19. Anaheim - The core is there. Perhaps Martin could fill a role there.

Toss-Up
1. Ottawa - This team teeter-totters between full-blown rebuild and #5 seed every season.
2. Carolina - This team teeter-totters between full-blown rebuild and #8 seed every season.
3. Phoenix - Ownership situation makes this choice a possibility
4. Dallas - Can't seem to get into the playoffs.
5. Calgary - Can't seem to get into the playoffs; What about Iginla's situation?


Teams Most Likely on Paul Martin's NTC
1. Edmonton - Might as well ship him off to Siberia
2. Columbus - Does anyone really want to play for Scott Howson?
3. NY Islanders - He's familiar with the Atlantic Divison, but it's the Islanders
4. Montreal - Rebuilding
5. Toronto - Until Brian Burke disappears, that team will finish no higher than 9th place

Therefore, we have this list of teams that look like realistic trade partners for Paul Martin:

1. Minnesota
2. Florida
3. Winnipeg
4. Tampa Bay
5. St. Louis
6. San Jose
7. Los Angeles
8. Colorado
9. Anaheim

What Should Ray Shero Look For?
The Components of the Ideal Paul Martin Trade
1. Expiring Contracts - Getting players of the books as soon as possible so as to make room to resign players such as, but not limited to, Sidney Crosby, Jordan Staal, Evgeni Malkin, and Kris Letang should be a critical aspect of Ray Shero's decision making. By expiring, I mean a contract that ends in 2012-2013, of course. A UFA, naturally. A cap hit above $3.0mil, indubitably.
2. Draft Pick Swap - Dealing a low 3rd rounder in the exchange while receiving a high fifth rounder, for instance, in the return can, might, and should be an option.
3. Mid-Level Prospects that Fit the Penguins System - I'm talking about the Deryk Engelland's, the Dustin Jeffrey's, and the Joe Vitale's of the hockey world. Ask for high level prospects. Make it seem like you're giving in while still receiving a quality hockey player in the return. One with RFA rights.

Minnesota Trade Options
Expiring Contract Unlikely to Be Moved: Pierre-Marc Bouchard
Expiring Contract Over $3mil We Could Acquire: Matt Cullen ($3.5mil)
Prospects To Ask For: Matt Hackett
Prospects We're More Likely to Acquire that Fit the Penguins System: Jason Zucker, Brett Bulmer
5th Round Pick Number: 128

Ideal Trade: Cullen, 5th, Zucker / Bulmer for Martin, 3rd

Florida Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: Stephen Weiss
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: None applicable

Trade to Florida is unlikely.

Winnipeg Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: Tobias Enstrom, Nik Antropov
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: Ron Hainsey ($4.5mil)
Prospects to Ask For: Carl Klingberg
Prospects We're More Likely To Acquire that Fit the Penguins System: Ivan Telegin?
5th Round Pick Number: 130

Ideal Trade: Hainsey, 5th, Telegin for Martin, 3rd

Tampa Bay Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: Teddy Purcell
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: None applicable.

Trade to Tampa Bay is unlikely

St. Louis Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: N/A
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: Andy McDonald ($4.7mil)
Prospects to Ask For: Philip McRae
Prospects We're More Likely to Acquire that Fit the Penguins System: Cody Beach, Stefan Della Rovere
5th Round Pick Number: Likely late

Trade to St. Louis is unlikely

San Jose Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: Ryan Clowe, Marc-Edouard Vlasic
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: N/A

Trade to San Jose is unlikely

Los Angeles Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: Rob Scuderi ($3.4mil)
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: Simon Gagne ($3.5mil)

Trade to Los Angeles is unlikely

Colorado Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: N/A
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: N/A
$42mil in cap space.

A different type of deal would have to be made with Colorado

Anaheim Trade Options
Expiring Contracts Unlikely to Be Moved: Corey Perry, Bobby Ryan
Expiring Contracts Over $3mil We Could Acquire: Lubomir Visnovsky ($5.6mil), Toni Lydman ($3mil)
Note: Listing Visnovsky is an optimistic move on my part
Prospects to Ask For: Devante Smith-Pelly (Currently in the NHL),
Prospects We're More Likely to Acquire that Fit the Penguins System: Patrick Maroon
5th Round Pick Number: 127

Ideal Trade(s): Visnovsky, Maroon, 5th for Martin, 3rd
Lydman, Smith-Pelly, 5th for Martin, 3rd

Ranking the Ideal Trades
1. Minnesota: Cullen, 5th, Zucker / Bulmer for Martin, 3rd
--- Cullen allows Staal to move up onto the 2nd line while maintaining a strong 3rd line checking presence. This has never happened during Shero's tenure.
--- Martin goes home.
2. Anaheim: Visnovsky, Maroon, 5th for Martin, 3rd
--- Visnovsky instantly upgrades the power play.
--- Martin joins a team that would allow him to stick around while they put all the pieces together.
3. Anaheim: Lydman, Smith-Pelly, 5th for Martin, 3rd
--- Toni Lydman was a +32 during the 2010-2011 season. His minutes have decreased and he no longer players with Visnovsky. But, he played three minutes a game on the PK.
--- Martin joins a team that would allow him to stick around while they put all the pieces together.
4. Winnipeg: Hainsey, 5th, Telegin for Martin, 3rd
--- Hainsey eats 21 minutes a game in Winnipeg; That includes 2:34 on the PK; 133 blocked shots
--- Winnipeg keeps a blue liner in town for three more years; Martin's exposure will look like tradition, since it's Winnipeg.

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Old
04-19-2012, 09:36 PM
  #33
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NJ is on Martins NTC list of "don't trade me there". He wanted out because how the Devils treated his injury.

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Old
04-19-2012, 09:53 PM
  #34
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Yeah he isn't going back to NJ. They left on bad terms because of the injury.

He's a 30 point D-man with a good stick & first pass. That's not worth 5 million. That puts him top 30 in highest paid D-men. He certainty isn't a bad player but that is a bad contract.

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Old
04-19-2012, 10:56 PM
  #35
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Alright. Although NJ was in italics, moving it to "On NTC" makes sense.

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Old
04-19-2012, 11:57 PM
  #36
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To Minnasota for Setoguchi...

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Old
04-20-2012, 12:04 AM
  #37
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To Minnasota for Setoguchi...
ha. this board has been on board for that trade for months. it's mentioned so often that part of me believes that it's already happened and will be revealed to us sometime in the future.

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Old
04-20-2012, 12:06 AM
  #38
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Antropov. Me likes

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Old
04-20-2012, 12:06 AM
  #39
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Since my head has calmed I am not head hunting Orpik like I was. I still would like to see his minutes lowered though. He isn't a 1st pairing DD anymore. His age/role are starting to show wear and tear.

Trade Martin for the best package we can gain... And assuming we don't sign anyone on defense I would like to see a youth injection on the back end. I would love for us to go after Suter, but not sure if it will happen...

No signings...

Engo/Orpik* - Letang
Nisky - Z
Orpik/Engo - Despres
Strait

* Rotate Engelland and Orpik to limit Brooks minutes, have him out for key situations but let Engelland cover the casual top pairing situations.

I think that'll allow Orpik to regain his game and keep his role while allowing another big body on the team to gain a new role.

Signing Suter...

Suter - Letang
Orpik - Z
Engo - Despres
Strait

Trade Nisky for an asset at forward. Or keep Nisky and put him in place of Despres and let Despres be the #1 call up and give him more growing time.

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Old
04-20-2012, 05:58 AM
  #40
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My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.500m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Jordan Staal ($4.000m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.000m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.600m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Arron Asham ($0.775m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Brooks Orpik ($3.750m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.750m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Brian Strait ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Antero Niittymaki ($0.650m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $68,500,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,881,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,618,333


Defense could be slightly better, but I would be fine with it.

- Martin traded for prospect/picks.
- Parise want's to play with Crosby (in my dreams)
- Niittymaki for backup

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Old
04-20-2012, 08:16 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muscles4Malkin View Post
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($6.500m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Jordan Staal ($4.000m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.000m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.600m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Arron Asham ($0.775m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Brooks Orpik ($3.750m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.750m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
Brian Strait ($0.725m) /
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Antero Niittymaki ($0.650m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $68,500,000; CAP PAYROLL: $66,881,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,618,333


Defense could be slightly better, but I would be fine with it.

- Martin traded for prospect/picks.
- Parise want's to play with Crosby (in my dreams)
- Niittymaki for backup
If you swap Orpik and Despres then I could be ok with keeping Orpik. If he's playing in our top 4 next season though, I won't be happy (unless of injury of course).

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Old
04-20-2012, 09:44 AM
  #42
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OK ... since we're throwing spaghetti at the wall, here's my toss

Orpik + TK + Jeffrey = Brown + Bernier
Martin and Lovejoy for forward prospects and picks
Resign Sully, but put him with Staal ... I thought they showed some good chemistry together, as did Sid and Cookie. Bumped Nisky up to $2.5 million. That leaves almost $10 million for contract extensions and/or deadline signings.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Dustin Brown ($3.175m)
Steve Sullivan ($1.500m) / Jordan Staal ($4.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.726m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m)
Veteran Presense ($1.000m)

DEFENSEMEN
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Brian Strait ($0.704m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m) / Matt Niskanen ($2.500m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.605m)

GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jonathan Bernier ($1.250m)

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,016,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $9,983,833

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Old
04-20-2012, 10:06 AM
  #43
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I had a dream last night that Martin was traded.

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Old
04-20-2012, 11:51 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
OK ... since we're throwing spaghetti at the wall, here's my toss

Orpik + TK + Jeffrey = Brown + Bernier
Martin and Lovejoy for forward prospects and picks
Resign Sully, but put him with Staal ... I thought they showed some good chemistry together, as did Sid and Cookie. Bumped Nisky up to $2.5 million. That leaves almost $10 million for contract extensions and/or deadline signings.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Dustin Brown ($3.175m)
Steve Sullivan ($1.500m) / Jordan Staal ($4.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.726m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.675m)
Veteran Presense ($1.000m)

DEFENSEMEN
Simon Despres ($0.840m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Brian Strait ($0.704m) / Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m) / Matt Niskanen ($2.500m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.605m)

GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jonathan Bernier ($1.250m)

------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,016,167; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $9,983,833
That is an awful package for brown/Bernier. Enough of these proposals they're embarrassing. You gotta give to get. Brown is their captain who is currently leading the charge against the Nucks and Bernier is an "A" goalie prospect. You're giving them a decent defender and two take em or leave em forwards.

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Old
04-20-2012, 12:22 PM
  #45
DegenX
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That is an awful package for brown/Bernier. Enough of these proposals they're embarrassing. You gotta give to get. Brown is their captain who is currently leading the charge against the Nucks and Bernier is an "A" goalie prospect. You're giving them a decent defender and two take em or leave em forwards.
I think you're selling TK and Jeffrey short ... TK would be in the top 8 scorers on that team as well as in terms of FO%, and Jeffrey, well, it's not like he's played a whole lot but should be a decent 2-3 line tweener. As for Brown, there's been plenty of talk that he may be moved. But, really, any of these things is anyone's guess.

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04-20-2012, 12:46 PM
  #46
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I think you're selling TK and Jeffrey short ... TK would be in the top 8 scorers on that team as well as in terms of FO%, and Jeffrey, well, it's not like he's played a whole lot but should be a decent 2-3 line tweener. As for Brown, there's been plenty of talk that he may be moved. But, really, any of these things is anyone's guess.
i think TK and Jeffery are the definition of take-em-or-leave-em forwards. they're nice to have around, but i don't think any team is going to trade their top three prospects at any position for them. especially someone like Bernier. TK and Jeffery are not garbage, but they're aren't being called garbage, they're being called not valuable enough to be valued as anything more than deal-lubricants.

Orpik for Brown might work value wise. but i don't see the incentive for trading their captain and playoff-production leader (regardless of rumors). plus i think LA is very happy with the composition of it's defense (as evidenced by the Jack Johnson trade) they think they have the perfect mixture of offensive-minded and defensive-minded defensemen.

Blues fans do seem to be all over Orpik for Stewart thou. I think with Orpik his value around the league is much higher than his play justifies.

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Old
04-20-2012, 01:00 PM
  #47
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I really want to see Stewart here, but Orpik is worth a hell of a lot more than him at this point. They're more desperate to shore things up on the LD than we are in finding a scoring winger.

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Old
04-20-2012, 02:06 PM
  #48
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Great info in the first post ShureShot!

Boocock I take it you don't have a job? Not to make light if you're looking for one but anyone that dedicates that long and analytical a post to Paul Martin has some time on their hands.

As for signings, I don't see a single guy on the UFA list that we should re-sign other than possibly Sullivan and only later in the summer if we can't fill the gap with someone better / younger.


D will be the really interesting part. I'm not worried about cutting Martin loose. If Shero wants him gone and can't find a suitor he'll just buy Martin out. Pens are not cash-strapped. The more tricky part will be Orpik. He's been pretty bad we can all agree and he's slowed but I do wonder if it's less age than just too many minutes and too much abuse the last couple seasons.

If a 31-32 year old Orpik takes it easy this summer and maybe trims down 5-10 lbs and we play him 15-17 min next season, does he have that lost step back when the playoffs roll around next year? IOW, is it his age and war scars or is it just a big guy whose not able to handle 20 min a game anymore? My instinct tells me he's got at least 3 or 4 good years left, but I'm not sure why he's slowed so much, so early. Could be an undisclosed injury too. Bottom line I'm not sold on moving Orpik. We're all thinking Jackman would be a good fit... well, Jackman is another Orpik more or less. Same age, same type of game. Something to consider.

We might be able to get someone like Sarich to replace Martin, then let Niskanen, Despres, Morrow and Harrington fight it out for those last two spots.

Letang
Orpik
Michalek
Sarich
Engo
Niskanen
Despres/Morrow/Harrington

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04-20-2012, 02:07 PM
  #49
UnderratedBrooks44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DegenX View Post
I think you're selling TK and Jeffrey short ... TK would be in the top 8 scorers on that team as well as in terms of FO%, and Jeffrey, well, it's not like he's played a whole lot but should be a decent 2-3 line tweener. As for Brown, there's been plenty of talk that he may be moved. But, really, any of these things is anyone's guess.
No, I'm not selling them short. Doesn't mean I don't like them, but you have to look at their place in the entire league not just on the team. Kennedy's totals really are okay enough and his salary is definitely manageable, but he's just not that desirable in the grand scheme of things. Jeffrey is a decent enough prospect, but that's all he is currently especially after his injury. If Bernier was known to be available I have no doubt there would be at least 5 if not 10 teams trying to top each others offers, which would involve more notable pieces than the guys we're talking about.

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04-20-2012, 02:16 PM
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TK is far more valuable than Jeffrey. Lumping them into the same tier of player is nonsense.

There are plenty of teams that would value what TK brings. SJ still lacks scoring depth and a player of his ilk that brings energy every shift. Could allow them to play Torrey Mitchell as a third wheel in the top 6.

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