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Old
04-19-2012, 07:19 PM
  #26
Guilliam
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Yeah but somehow I don't expect Trunev to cross the pond. It sucks that Pribyl was injured during the WJHC, wanted to see him a bit more.

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04-19-2012, 07:20 PM
  #27
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Yeah but somehow I don't expect Trunev to cross the pond. It sucks that Pribyl was injured during the WJHC, wanted to see him a bit more.
He might at some point

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04-19-2012, 07:25 PM
  #28
David Thicke
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Like most HF articles, not much depth or analysis, just a pretty flat, face valued report on the amount of points/goals/etc accumulated in X league.
For a moderator, you should be a little more careful with your comments about the sites articles. This forum is on their site.

I have to follow the editor's and managing editor's related outline to some extent but in this article, it is an AWARDS article so there doesn't need to be analysis or a lot of depth. We had a limited number of words and needed to try to get as many different Prospects into the awards.

I personally don't give all the negative issues about the prospects but will point out what needs to be improved as simple as possible. I don't want to be like the Gazette.

Do you think the average reader is going to know about edge control, plant leg pivots, crossover acceleration moves, reverse C strides or transition to offense footwork? There also positioning issues for break outs, back checking issues, on the boards break-out control or specialty teams positioning and play reading for the shooting lanes but it's just too much for some articles or the average reader. I could go on and on but I won't.

I will try to answer some of the other questions on the article by other as well, to give more details about the players.

Thank you for at least reading the article!

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04-19-2012, 07:35 PM
  #29
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Our defensive prospects seem to be firing on cylinders while we have a very underwhelming group of forwards. Hopefully Holland, Gallagher and Kristo are decent. We will have a very strong camp next year I believe. I hope Archambault can put it together.

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04-19-2012, 07:42 PM
  #30
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I think it's early to write all of them out. But their hype has pretty much all died out. Pribyl has a lot of hockey ahead of him, so he's still an intriguing prospect, but Trunev is actually the one that's making the most headway. Might be a breakout player in the KHL next year after a decent first full season.
Nobody talks about Pribyl because nobody here follows the Czech 2nd division. He's not really as exciting a prospect as Avtsin though from what I hear.

Don't forget another one of these mythical Euros was once a guy named Alexei Emelin. So you really never do know.

Avtsin was a high risk, high reward prospect, regardless of where he's from or what language he speaks. Like the majority of high risk prospects, it looks like he's not going to be anything, at least in North America. Plenty of these highly skilled kids never develop a real game.

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04-19-2012, 07:56 PM
  #31
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Avtsin was a high risk, high reward prospect, regardless of where he's from or what language he speaks. Like the majority of high risk prospects, it looks like he's not going to be anything, at least in North America. Plenty of these highly skilled kids never develop a real game.
I don't think you remember what some people were saying when we drafted him...

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ghlight=avtsin

Thankfully, Alessandro was there to put some reason in there

He was really highly rated in our prospect pool when the boards made their own list.

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04-19-2012, 08:03 PM
  #32
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I don't think you remember what some people were saying when we drafted him...

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...ghlight=avtsin

Thankfully, Alessandro was there to put some reason in there

He was really highly rated in our prospect pool when the boards made their own list.
I love the cycle. First, everyone is complaining because he's Russian and apparently all Russians are the same, then he got some insane hype when people learned more about him, now that it looks like he won't pan out it's because he's Russian and it is proof we should never draft Russians ever again.

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04-19-2012, 08:33 PM
  #33
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This is a new type of article for the HF site and I would love some feedback and comments on it.
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For a moderator, you should be a little more careful with your comments about the sites articles. This forum is on their site.
Ahha. That first statement certainly looks genuine now.

As four your later comment on the "average reader": chances are the average reader on a prospects site is going to be better informed and more interested in learning about development issues. So if you have knowledge that you've yet to ever demonstrate, then I'd say go for it.

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04-19-2012, 08:48 PM
  #34
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Ahha. That first statement certainly looks genuine now.

As four your later comment on the "average reader": chances are the average reader on a prospects site is going to be better informed and more interested in learning about development issues. So if you have knowledge that you've yet to ever demonstrate, then I'd say go for it.
I agree. David should talk to the HF editor. We're all big hockey fans. One of the best, if not the best forum for hockey. Your editor should allow you to show us what you know. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the articles. We do, but if you got more to share, we're open to it!

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04-19-2012, 09:35 PM
  #35
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I agree. David should talk to the HF editor. We're all big hockey fans. One of the best, if not the best forum for hockey. Your editor should allow you to show us what you know. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate the articles. We do, but if you got more to share, we're open to it!
I agree with that, I mean, this article is fun and all, but the infos there are a bit basic, especially compared with what we usually get from 'more than average' posters from these boards...

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04-19-2012, 09:43 PM
  #36
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Well I agree any "awards" article is going to be superficial, summing up players in general terms like "hardest working", "best offense" and "most disappointing" is meant to be a very general overview. I think this place tends to attract hockey nerds who can handle things broken down for more detail. Maybe a little comparison between the winners and runners up too.

For instance, "Fastest skater" could be broken up into fastest top speed, acceleration and agility, or at least point all those things out. Or for defense, at least mention what it is that makes Ellis so good - is it his positional sense, his effort, his strength?

I get it's meant to be a general overview and it serves its purpose, but a few categories could explain more than just stats.

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04-19-2012, 10:03 PM
  #37
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Personally, I enjoyed it. I know about our more well known guys like Beaulieu, Gallagher and Tinordi but it was really nice to read a bit about guys like Ellis and see how they're doing.

Thanks for the article!

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04-19-2012, 10:42 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Well I agree any "awards" article is going to be superficial, summing up players in general terms like "hardest working", "best offense" and "most disappointing" is meant to be a very general overview. I think this place tends to attract hockey nerds who can handle things broken down for more detail. Maybe a little comparison between the winners and runners up too.

For instance, "Fastest skater" could be broken up into fastest top speed, acceleration and agility, or at least point all those things out. Or for defense, at least mention what it is that makes Ellis so good - is it his positional sense, his effort, his strength?

I get it's meant to be a general overview and it serves its purpose, but a few categories could explain more than just stats.
Thanks for that input I will give less stats and more specifics and detail of the players for the Canadiens prospects and the articles. It will still have to get past the editor and that's out of my hands.

Here's why Ellis is the best prospect right now and this doesn't mean he will necessarily be better than Tinordi or Beaulieu as they improve on their weakness. A good team defense has to have players with different strengths paired properly together. I would never put Beaulieu and PK Subban together, just too offensive minded and I am not getting the max offense out of my backend group, they would need more defensive defensemen with them (Gorges and Tinordi).

Ellis is just better all-rounded right now where the others have deficiencies in their games. Beaulieu is not strong positionally in his own zone, gets caught puck watching when he hasn't got the puck and at times gets too deep in the offensive zone which will give him problems in the NHL even with his excellent skating ability. Tinordi has skating issues which are always the cases for the big men because he has a tendency to get to upright with not enough leg bend causing him balance issues. He hasn't learned to lower his base by widening his stance to get better leverage on the smaller players and has to stay away from taking himself way out of position just to make the big hit, very similar to PK Subban, Nathan Beaulieu and Darren Dietz. It's just maturity and coaching that is needed to correct those issues. Ellis has good solid base whether skating forward or backwards and his knee flex is in the prefect position about 2-3 inches in front of his skate boot which gives better balance and maximum power out of the thigh thrust. He has already developed both sides of his body, meaning he can pivot to either side going backwards and doesn't have to turn his back to the oncoming forward which allows a coach to deploy Ellis on left of the blueline or his natural right side without worry. Right now he positioning is excellent but his ability to read the forward's weakness to turn quickly left or right and moving himself to force the oncoming forward away from his strong side helps him control the player. His ability to angle off the onrushing forward is solid and he rarely makes the mistake of giving up the middle ice when defending coming into his defensive zone. He had to play in all situations with very little help in Cape Breton so he can easily switch to offense while knowing if the risks are too high. He has excellent footwork from backwards to forward for quick offensive transition and has the ability to make a quick hard accurate pass while moving backwards, only Beaulieu is better at this than Ellis.

See what I mean about too much information for the articles and I only wanted to answer quickly. I hope this helps answer some questions. I am going to try to answer other comments as well tomorrow.

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Old
04-19-2012, 10:56 PM
  #39
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Thanks for that input I will give less stats and more specifics and detail of the players for the Canadiens prospects and the articles. It will still have to get past the editor and that's out of my hands.

Here's why Ellis is the best prospect right now and this doesn't mean he will necessarily be better than Tinordi or Beaulieu as they improve on their weakness. A good team defense has to have players with different strengths paired properly together. I would never put Beaulieu and PK Subban together, just too offensive minded and I am not getting the max offense out of my backend group, they would need more defensive defensemen with them (Gorges and Tinordi).

Ellis is just better all-rounded right now where the others have deficiencies in their games. Beaulieu is not strong positionally in his own zone, gets caught puck watching when he hasn't got the puck and at times gets too deep in the offensive zone which will give him problems in the NHL even with his excellent skating ability. Tinordi has skating issues which are always the cases for the big men because he has a tendency to get to upright with not enough leg bend causing him balance issues. He hasn't learned to lower his base by widening his stance to get better leverage on the smaller players and has to stay away from taking himself way out of position just to make the big hit, very similar to PK Subban, Nathan Beaulieu and Darren Dietz. It's just maturity and coaching that is needed to correct those issues. Ellis has good solid base whether skating forward or backwards and his knee flex is in the prefect position about 2-3 inches in front of his skate boot which gives better balance and maximum power out of the thigh thrust. He has already developed both sides of his body, meaning he can pivot to either side going backwards and doesn't have to turn his back to the oncoming forward which allows a coach to deploy Ellis on left of the blueline or his natural right side without worry. Right now he positioning is excellent but his ability to read the forward's weakness to turn quickly left or right and moving himself to force the oncoming forward away from his strong side helps him control the player. His ability to angle off the onrushing forward is solid and he rarely makes the mistake of giving up the middle ice when defending coming into his defensive zone. He had to play in all situations with very little help in Cape Breton so he can easily switch to offense while knowing if the risks are too high. He has excellent footwork from backwards to forward for quick offensive transition and has the ability to make a quick hard accurate pass while moving backwards, only Beaulieu is better at this than Ellis.

See what I mean about too much information for the articles and I only wanted to answer quickly. I hope this helps answer some questions. I am going to try to answer other comments as well tomorrow.
Solid analysis.

And yeah, that's the thing, Tinordi and Beaulieu have things that are more difficult to learn which is why they have higher ceilings (size, strength, toughness for Tinordi, skating and puck skill for Beaulieu) but what makes Ellis such a surprise is just how solid he already is at all areas of the game. I can see why you wouldn't want to include everything in the article, but I think people would be happy with even one or two more sentences about Ellis' positioning sense and mobility and all areas of play.

Other than that it's fine as an overview and it's nice to hear some more about some of the lesser known, longshot prospects.

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Old
04-19-2012, 11:05 PM
  #40
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As far as Avtsin go, he wasn't hyped because he was european as you say, he had fantastic stats in the MHL.
12 games 9 points.

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04-20-2012, 12:15 AM
  #41
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12 games 9 points.
huh maybe I have the wrong league, didn't he score 50 goals and like 90ish points? I thought it was in the MHL...

Edit : Glad to see that Ellis can play both sides. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the first of the three (with Beaulieu and Ellis) to make the jump in the big league.

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04-20-2012, 12:19 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Guilliam View Post
huh maybe I have the wrong league, didn't he score 50 goals and like 90ish points? I thought it was in the MHL...

Edit : Glad to see that Ellis can play both sides. I wouldn't be surprised if he was the first of the three (with Beaulieu and Ellis) to make the jump in the big league.
It was the junior league for Dynamo. I quickly checked, 110 points in 76GP.

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04-20-2012, 12:23 AM
  #43
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It was the junior league for Dynamo. I quickly checked, 110 points in 76GP.
Alright thanks man.

Sorry for the misinformation.

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04-20-2012, 03:10 AM
  #44
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Like most HF articles, not much depth or analysis, just a pretty flat, face valued report on the amount of points/goals/etc accumulated in X league.
That's harsh, I thought it was a good read. Not everybody monitors every prospect, and it's good to have an article summing up their seasons.

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04-20-2012, 01:47 PM
  #45
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Solid analysis.

And yeah, that's the thing, Tinordi and Beaulieu have things that are more difficult to learn which is why they have higher ceilings (size, strength, toughness for Tinordi, skating and puck skill for Beaulieu) but what makes Ellis such a surprise is just how solid he already is at all areas of the game. I can see why you wouldn't want to include everything in the article, but I think people would be happy with even one or two more sentences about Ellis' positioning sense and mobility and all areas of play.

Other than that it's fine as an overview and it's nice to hear some more about some of the lesser known, longshot prospects.
Thank you and I will make sure to give more tidbits like this concerning the prospects' abilities or weakness in the articles. Thanks for your feedback!

You are very right about Tinordi and Beaulieu. Pateryn has all the tools but doesn't have the offensive upside compare to Ellis. He was made to play more defensive because Mac Bennett, his partner at Michigan was naturally more offensive minded and a better puck mover. Pateryn is smart with the puck, has an excellent Hockey IQ and can move it quickly up ice but his assets are that he's physical in front of his own net, makes it difficult on the opposition forwards in the defensive zone corners and has excellent angling abilities, now we have see if it translates at the pro level. Pateryn like Tinordi, Beaulieu, Dietz and Ellis, all have a mean streak that they try to keep under control to avoid major penalties. Dietz just plays so much better the dirtier and more physical the game becomes, it just seems to motivate him even more. I saw him punch the visor right off the other kids helmut in a fight and he won't hesitate to jump in to protect a teammate and never run his goalie, it just drives him crazy. He chased a kid on the Red Deer Rebels last year and they needed both linemen to get him off the kid. Dietz can really fight even against big players because his biggest assets when he drops the gloves are balance and punching power.

There just a little more information for you. Thanks again for your ideas!

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04-20-2012, 02:22 PM
  #46
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Great job David, you are writing for the most demanding fan base in the league so you got to be extra sharp!

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04-20-2012, 02:34 PM
  #47
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As crazy as this might sound, I think Alexander Avtsin is one of those players who might have benefited from playing an extra year in the KHL before coming to the AHL. He was progressing quite well then and it seems in hindsight wasn't quite ready to leave for North America.

I rather the Habs pick boom/bust projects like him in our late rounds over guys like Scott Kishel, Patrick Johnson, Mike Cichy, etc.

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04-20-2012, 02:40 PM
  #48
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You had hopes?
I know I did, and I don't see why anyone wouldn't as the kid ripped up the junior leagues, has size, speed and offensive skills. It's a gamble as you never know how they will adjust to the smaller ice. I've seen almost every single game he's played in the AHL and to be honest I don't know what to make of him. He's got the physical tools, but nothing ever seems to come of his efforts in the offensive zone, he spins around he dekes, he loses the puck. But at times he shows some slick hands and with his height you start to think that he can do something, only to be let down the next game or the very next play even.

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Is Morgan Ellis really expected to be that good? I was suprised to see him listed as the best d-man..
We will see what he can do in Hamilton in the fall, can't wait actually. The Dogs will have their "big 3" next year so it should be exciting to see what they can do as they are our future. What's impressive in that the following year they could likely have Bennett and Dietz to restock the shelf so to speak.

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He might at some point
He's not under contract for next season, so we'll see if he re-signs with Severstal or not. Personally i'd be a little surprised if he came over.

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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Well I agree any "awards" article is going to be superficial, summing up players in general terms like "hardest working", "best offense" and "most disappointing" is meant to be a very general overview. I think this place tends to attract hockey nerds who can handle things broken down for more detail. Maybe a little comparison between the winners and runners up too.
I actually used to a "awards" article for a couple years on my site but got tired of doing it as it seemed superficial and very general.

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04-20-2012, 02:43 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by David Thicke View Post
Thank you and I will make sure to give more tidbits like this concerning the prospects' abilities or weakness in the articles. Thanks for your feedback!

You are very right about Tinordi and Beaulieu. Pateryn has all the tools but doesn't have the offensive upside compare to Ellis. He was made to play more defensive because Mac Bennett, his partner at Michigan was naturally more offensive minded and a better puck mover. Pateryn is smart with the puck, has an excellent Hockey IQ and can move it quickly up ice but his assets are that he's physical in front of his own net, makes it difficult on the opposition forwards in the defensive zone corners and has excellent angling abilities, now we have see if it translates at the pro level. Pateryn like Tinordi, Beaulieu, Dietz and Ellis, all have a mean streak that they try to keep under control to avoid major penalties. Dietz just plays so much better the dirtier and more physical the game becomes, it just seems to motivate him even more. I saw him punch the visor right off the other kids helmut in a fight and he won't hesitate to jump in to protect a teammate and never run his goalie, it just drives him crazy. He chased a kid on the Red Deer Rebels last year and they needed both linemen to get him off the kid. Dietz can really fight even against big players because his biggest assets when he drops the gloves are balance and punching power.

There just a little more information for you. Thanks again for your ideas!
Very insightful.

I have a specific question regarding angling abilities (probably some of the boards' regulars could help as well). I see it in two very different ways and am wondering if I'm getting it wrong or I should simply be made aware of more appropriate terms.

There is angling in terms of hitting technique, which a player like Emelin has mastered over the years in his capacity to "angle on" a player, often taken by surprise, for his now infamous hip-checks. On a side note, he seems to be much more efficient and impactful when attacking the player from his natural left side. But there is also angling in terms of defensive coverage which mostly pertains – at least in the way I see it – to stickwork and the ability to close gaps and force opposing players into less dangerous areas of the ice, especially in one-on-one situations when a forward gains the offensive zone. For instance, Josh Gorges is a master at this "version" of angling, while Emelin is not particularly efficient in this type of coverage, far from it actually!

As for the new template of awards, I do appreciate it. It gives a fun, new outlook on players we have seen plenty of and others we have barely watched.

But I have to echo a bit what overlord has said, in maybe less harsh terms. I've followed the site for many years, since 2006 I believe when Jason Menard was doing the Habs' write-ups. I do think there is a bit more focus nowadays on superficial statistical analysis (not you in particular). I remember that interview bits with Timmins were being integrated in the regular write-ups and it would really add depth into appreciating players' specific strengths and development. Maybe it simply is much harder to do this nowadays (Gauthier's silencing policies?).

Anyhow, you've shown in this thread you do know what you're talking about and hopefully you get some ammo from this thread to confront your editorial board with the fact many hockeysfuture readers (I'm a much less frequent visitor) do appreciate more in-depth analysis, and it's not because we're a minority with PhD's in hockey and side-coaching careers or anything like that.

Cheers!

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04-20-2012, 02:43 PM
  #50
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Great job David, you are writing for the most demanding fan base in the league so you got to be extra sharp!
Habs fan just expect their team to be the best, work hard and not make BS excuses for losing. They just want a team that at the very least wants to win the Stanley Cup every year and are not happy to just get into the Playoffs. It's is also the most knowledgeable fan base in the NHL so they can see through the players for what they really are. Habs fans show up every night for the Canadiens' games and millions more are religious about watching their teams' every game on television so why shouldn't the Habs fans expect the same from the team and all it's player! Nothing less should be acceptable for us, Habs fans!

As the writer for the Montreal Canadiens on Hockeys Future, I have do my best every article and nothing else should acceptable so I wanted to get feedback and ideas on what they wanted to see more of in this article and others. They have spoken pretty clearly to me!

Thanks again, Kyle and all the others. Keep it coming!

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