HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Fantasy Hockey Talk > All Time Draft
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
All Time Draft Fantasy league where players of the past and present meet.

Bob Cole Divisional Semifinals: Chicago vs. Philadelphia

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-20-2012, 02:25 PM
  #51
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
PP

Kariya-Nieuwendyk-Howe
Salming-Larson

vs.

Martinec-Morenz-Cook
Quackenbush-Ross

I hadn't really looked at it before, but Martinec's domestic numbers are really underwhelming. His resume is really based on his international play. Here are the domestic scoring results of Martinec, Novy, and Nedomansky:

Martinec: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5
Novy: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3
Nedomansky: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5

Now, let's look at their scoring on an international level(Olympics, WC, and Canada Cup) where Martinec "thrives":

Martinec: 87 games, 48 goals, 50 assists, 98 points (1.126PPG), 70-71 to 79-80
Novy: 86 games, 51 goals, 38 goals, 89 points (1.035PPG), 74-75 to 81-82
Nedomansky: 92 games, 78 goals, 31 assists, 109 points (1.185PPG), 64-65 to 73-74

I'm failing to see what distinguishes Martinec so much. I think we've made too big of a deal about those finishes over Boris Mikhailov. If you actually look at the finishes, they make little sense. Martinec's all star selections at RW were from '74-'77. Boris Mikhailov didn't even play in the World Championships in 74-75. Here are their stats in the World Championships in that time frame:

Martinec: 40 games, 31 goals, 30 assists, 61 points (1.525PPG)
Mikhailov: 30 games, 27 goals, 21 assists, 48 points (1.6PPG)

Martinec wasn't even statistically better than Mikhailov in these years. I can't explain why Martinec won the awards. My only explanation is that Martinec played a very "pretty" style of hockey compared to Novy, who played a less exciting game.

Now to the actual comparison between Kariya and Martinec. Comparing them is difficult, but looking at the numbers I just showed on the two, I think Martinec is either overrated, or Novy is severely underrated. In terms of better offensive production, I'll personally take Kariya.

Morenz and Nieuwendyk is no competition, Morenz wins in a landslide.

Howe and Cook are the two best RW power forwards in hockey history. Cook is a great player, but he's no Howe. Nobody is Howe. Howe gets the advantage here.

Quack and Salming is a difficult comparison to do. Quackenbush has high finishes among scoring for defensemen, but came at a time where the difference between 2nd and 10th was just a few points. Look at the percentages, and Quackenbush will look much better. But, he played through the war years where competition was very weak. Salming played in a highly competitive era in terms of scoring defensemen, and in a deeper league. But, if you look at career adjusted PPG, Salming's is .577 over 1,148 games. Quackenbush's is .383 over 1,010 games when you adjust Quackenbush's games. I'll take Salming offensively.

I really don't know how to compare Art Ross to Reed Larson offensively. I'll leave it at both were very good offensive players.

First PP units are a slight advantage to Philadelphia. The largest gap is between Morenz and Nieuwendyk, by far. But, that is the only advantage that Chicago has in this matchup. Kariya is better than Martinec, Howe is better than Cook, and Salming is better than Quackenbush. I think the fact that Philadelphia has the advantage in 3 other areas makes up for Chicago's larger advantage at one position. Philadelphia also has the best player on either line in Howe.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 02:33 PM
  #52
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,866
vCash: 500
Martinec's Czechs didn't blow out the doormats of Europe like Mikhailov's Soviets did.

Novy played on a stacked team domestically, Martinec didn't, and the Czech league kept spotty assist records

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 02:41 PM
  #53
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
I really don't know how to compare Art Ross to Reed Larson offensively. I'll leave it at both were very good offensive players.
Art Ross is in the HHOF, and I can count the number of all-star norris votes Larson ever received on one hand.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 03:20 PM
  #54
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Art Ross is in the HHOF, and I can count the number of all-star norris votes Larson ever received on one hand.
Ross was also a much better defensive player than Larson. One-dimensional guys like Larson are rarely elected into the HHOF. I admittedly know nothing about Art Ross. He could be the best offensive defenseman pre-1920 and I'd have no idea because I don't know anything about his competition. His goal totals in the NHA look good for a defenseman, but I don't know anything about defensemen in the NHA and scoring. I couldn't name another defenseman that ever played in the NHA off the top of my head, and would not have been able to name one before reading Art Ross' bio. It's the era that I know by far the least about. I know even less about defensemen from pre-1920.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 03:23 PM
  #55
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Martinec's Czechs didn't blow out the doormats of Europe like Mikhailov's Soviets did.

Novy played on a stacked team domestically, Martinec didn't, and the Czech league kept spotty assist records
Interesting. This could explain the difference between Martinec's reputation and actual stats. Is there a breakdown of game-by-game performances and box scores from individual games for the World Championships? That way we could figure out how each performed against the best competition.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 03:32 PM
  #56
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
Here is EB's full comparison of Martinec, Nedomansky, and Novy from the draft thread...

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=420

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 04:10 PM
  #57
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
PP2

Moore-Primeau-Dye
Goodfellow-Stanfield

vs.

Smith-Fredrickson-Hay
Green-Weight

Dickie Moore is a better offensive player than Tommy Smith. I don't think this requires much elaboration.

We compared Primeau and Fredrickson earlier, and it was concluded that Fredrickson is the better offensive player. Here it is:

Quote:
Here's a look at percentages:

Fredrickson: 86, 103, 100, 137, 100, 94* (Total 620)
Primeau: 85, 100, 73, 100, 64 (Total 422)

*WCHL, Vs1(Bill Cook). Doing a Vs2 in the WCHL would be idiotic.

Fredrickson's offense appears to be better. But, consider that it game in a PCHA with 3 teams in it, and players like Nighbor, Dye, Denneny, Malone, and Lalonde had moved on to the NHL at this point. And Bill Cook and Keats were in the WCHL. Primeau's finishes came in a consolidated NHL, but he did have very strong linemates. If you use Vs1 for Fredrickson's years in the PCHA, it looks like this:

Fredrickson: 86, 100, 83, 100, 93, 94* (Total 556)
Just as a comparison between Moore and Smith is not necessary, a comparison between Dye and Hay is not needed. Dye wins, quite handily.

That takes us to Green and Goodfellow. Ted Green doesn't impress me very much on a PP. From what I can see, he had four relevant seasons of offensive production in the NHL. Doing a % comparison for these two wouldn't work because it's pre and post expansion. If we cherry pick Green's four best seasons and compare them to Goodfellow's four best(generous to Green), Green's adjusted PPG is .541 over 314 games. Goodfellow's is .580 over 317 games. Goodfellow gets the advantage offensively.

That takes us to Weight and Stanfield. Stanfield averaged 20.9PPP per 82 games over his career. Weight averaged 30.6PPP per 82 games. Weight gets the advantage in PP production. Did Weight ever actually play point on the PP? I don't see anything about it in his bio. If not, then that number has to take a significant hit. Even if he did, it doesn't matter because Philadelphia would still have the superior PP.

2nd PP units are an advantage to Philadelphia. We hold a large advantage on both wings, much larger than the gap at center. Goodfellow is better than Green, and the advantages for Fredrickson and Weight don't make up for Philadelphia's advantages in other areas.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 04:26 PM
  #58
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
I never got around to doing a bio on Doug Weight, but did find these when I was researching him...

(excuse the incompleteness of some of these...I was not able to view the full article)


Belleville News-Democrat - Oct. 7, 2003
Quote:
One figures to have MacInnis and Doug Weight on the point with forwards Demitra...
Belleville News-Democrat - Feb. 5, 2003
Quote:
Center Doug Weight's ankle injury created a ripple effect that has forced...Khavanov takes over for Weight on the left point of the power play

ESPN
- Nov. 2008
Quote:
On the power play, Weight moved the puck from the left point down to captain Bull Guerin, who returned it

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 04:53 PM
  #59
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
PK

Fleming-Primeau
Salming-Smith

vs.

Pavelich-Mosdell
Johnson-Goldham

Fleming was known as a great PKer, but Pavelich is one of the top defensive players of all time. Advantage to Pavelich. Primeau and Mosdell are both very strong in their roles, and I don't think you can definitively call one better than the other.

Salming is a better defenseman than Johnson, but Johnson's skillset seems tailored to be a PKer. These two are close. Goldham and Smith both have skillsets made for a PKer. Goldham is the better overall defenseman, but Smith has 49% PK usage for the dynasty Bruins. Goldham still gets the advantage.

Chicago has the advantage in 1st PK units. This is because of Pavelich, and Goldham.

Graves-Linden
Goodfellow-Reise

vs.

Noble-MacGregor
Engblom-Quackenbush/Green

I think Graves' defensive reputation as a forward is more well-established than Noble, and the fact that we know Graves killed penalties is what makes me take Graves in this scenario. We don't know if Noble ever killed penalties. Graves killed 26.6% over his career, and 32% if you take out his first 4 years in the league. Linden killed 33% of his team's penalties over 1,382 games. We've got data for half of MacGregor's career, 7 of 14 seasons. He killed 34.1% of his team's penalties over 480 games in that span. I think it's reasonable to say that MacGregor killed penalties at this pace for most of his career before that. Even if we give him credit for killing penalties at that rate his entire career(unlikely because rookies rarely kill penalties and most guys don't start killing penalties until 2 or 3 years in), is 1.1% more PKing more impressive if it's for 400 less games(ballparking for adjusting MacGregor's career games played)? I don't think so.

Goodfellow is better than Engblom, I don't think there's any great debate there. If you're using Quackenbush on your 2nd PK unit, then he's a better option than Reise. If you do, then I think your defensemen might have trouble clearing the front of the net because neither Engblom or Quackenbush was very physical. If you're using Green, then it's a close competition. Green killed 34.8% of the penalties in the 4 years we had data over 269 games.

2nd PK units are an advantage to Philadelphia. Philadelphia has better forwards, an advantage in Goodfellow, and Chicago may have an advantage with the other defenseman, depending upon who they use.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 05:00 PM
  #60
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
I'm done with my comparisons now. Attack them as you wish. I'm thinking we're going to be doing voting over the weekend, so here is my summary of why Philadelphia should win this series:

-Better overall first, second, and third lines
-Better second pairing
-Better goaltending
-More physicality from defensemen
-Better PP units(small advantage on the first unit, big advantage on the 2nd unit)
-Better 2nd PK unit
-Matchup advantage

My team is not worried about matching up much against the other team. We'll try to keep Gordie Howe away from Ching Johnson, Marty Pavelich, and Reg Noble. That's basically it. But, we're not afraid of these matchups. If we can get Howe away from them, then Howe will feast on Tommy Smith and George Hay. If not, we're not terribly worried about it. I'd like to know how much Chicago plans on using Pavelich and his line as a shutdown line against my top 6(specifically Howe and Dye). If they plan on doing that a lot, I think it will really limit the effectiveness of the 2nd line, which includes possibly Chicago's 2nd and 3rd best offensive players. The 2nd line doesn't have the defensive personnel to match up with my top 6, and may not get as much ice time in order to score goals. By playing the 3rd line often, it will mean less time for the offensive lines in the top 6. Also, Chicago's first line is the only other line they could pass off as a sort of checking line because of Reg Noble and Morenz at center. If they try to use them in a more defensive role, it will limit their offensive effectiveness as well.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2012, 08:13 PM
  #61
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
My thoughts on this matchup...


First one lineup change (sort of)...Quackenbush will be the regular on the #2 PK unit...Philly's second PP unit is too good to go with Green (although he may see some time at F on the PK).


Goaltending
This one is pretty easy...Holecek is an average to slightly below average starter and Barrasso is a low-end starter. This will be an advantage for Philly. I would like to mention that one thing Barrasso gets criticized for is inconsistency...I feel that I have put Barrasso in about as favorable of a situation as he could be in, which should help bring the "good Barrasso" out. Here are some of the things I think will help:

1. He is on an offense oriented team which is the situation where he played best.

2. None of his defensemen are elite puck rushers where you would always want them with the puck, so he should be able to take advantage of his great puck handling ability.

3. He had a solid backup in the regular season to prevent him from being overworked/injured, which were issues he had in real life.

4. His backup is not a big game goalie at all (see CC 1981 ). We all know Barrasso had issues with his backups at times...this should help him from feeling threatened, because he knows his coach will be calling his name when it's go time.

5. He has a great goaltending coach (See his bio for more info).


To be clear, I'm not saying any of this puts him on Holecek's level. Goaltending is still an easy advantage to Philly. Our opinions of players always have a little bit of a range to them which can vary depending on a number of factors...I'm hoping the things mentioned above will bring the voters' opinions of Barrasso towards the higher end of whatever range their opinon of Barrasso is.


Coaching
This is another easy one...Tommy Ivan is at worst a Top 10 coach in the ATD, and Lindy Ruff is a low-end head coach. Between that and having home ice advantage Chicago should be able to frequently get the matchups they want.

One other thing to mention, which Billy touched on briefly, is that you will get better performances out of some of Chicago's best players with a player's coach like Ivan...Both Howie Morenz and Frank Fredrickson had trouble with coaches that tried to reign them in, fight them on certain things, etc. Ivan is not that guy at all, he lets his players be creative, and should really maximize the production of those two in particular.


Gordie Howe

IMO one of only 3 players who has a legit shot at being named the greatest player of all time...he deserves his own section here.

The game plan against Howe is to have the Quackenbush-Johnson shutdown pairing out there against him whenever possible. IMO...this is one of the better shutdown pairings in the ATD, and their defensive styles compliment each other well with Quackenbush being the Lidstrom-esque positional/stick guy and Johnson being the big physical guy. Ching Johnson is one of the few players who might actually be stronger than Gordie Howe (impossible to know, but he will have a slight size advantage). Check out Johnson's bio to see how he absolutely loved playing a physical game. It appears that he was at his best when the game got rough.

The second piece of the Howe plan is that either the Morenz line or the Mosdell line will be out against him at all times. Both of these lines have LW's that can be used to check Howe. Marty Pavelich is likely a borderline top 5 defensive LWer who had success shadowing Rocket Richard. Noble has less defensive prowess than Pavelich, but brings a very physical game. Both are great skaters. These two guys will try to limit the amount of time Howe gets the puck, and when he does have it, slow him down to help our defensemen.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that I don't think Philly's 1st line puts Howe in the best situation to really get the most out of him. Howe is the only physical presence on the line and will need to stick up for Paul Kariya when my defense starts pounding him. Also, Nieuwendyk is only a small plus defensively...don't think he was ever going up against the other team's best (for sure not in Calgary where it would've been Gilmour or Dallas where it would've been Modano/Carbs). When up against a line that is a threat offensively Howe will have to help out with defensive responsibilites. These extra duties for Howe will diminish Howe's offensive effectiveness some (he will still be a huge threat). He certainly was not relied on to help out in these areas in real life as much as he will be here.

One last thing that should be noted is that we have size and physicality on all of our defense pairings which will help if Howe ever happens to be out against them instead of the Quackenbush-Johnson pairing.


Forward Line Matchups
Again, I would like to say how the LW-LW, C-C, RW-RW comparisons that Billy does really leave out a lot when discussing lines, like who play what role, how players will work together, etc.

I think my 1st line actually wins the matchup against Philly's when you look at how they will play each other. Chicago's first line is a much better two-way line with 2 players that are good defensively in Morenz and Noble. I know Gordie Howe is better offensively than Morenz, but I think Neiuwendyk will have a harder time checking Morenz than Noble does on Howe. Morenz is A LOT faster than Nieuwendyk, and Morenz's linemates will be able to keep up with him. Backed up by a solid shutdown pairing that can get them the puck, I think Philly is in trouble when my team gets possession and transitions with all that speed. There isn't a ton of difference between Martinec and Kariya...similar players in similar roles...Martinec handles a physical opponent better than Kariya, but any differences here aren't really going to make or break anything.

It should be mentioned that Joe Nieuwendyk's even strength goal scoring is not as good as his Top 10 finishes indicate...In the years he finishes 5, 5, 7, 7, 9 in total goal scoring he was only 9, 10, 16, 36, 62 in even strength goal scoring.


Philly basically went with more of a 3rd scoring line instead of a checking line. I want my 2nd line out there as much as possible against that 3rd line. They are simply not good enough defensively to handle such a high powered offensive line like mine. Graves appears to be a fine defensive player, but Bill Cook is an elite power forward. Graves will more than have his hands full with him, and really isn't getting much help from his linemates. Fredrickson-Cook should be a lethal combo, with Fredrickson's playmaking setting up Cook who is an elite goal scorer. Hay is a balanced player that plays creatively, so he should fit in nicely on offense. I think a team like mine with 2 lines that are very strong offensive threats is the worst-case scenario for how Philly is set up, and this matchup will be the payoff.


My 3rd line is a straight shutdown line...It will always be out there against one of Philly's top 2 lines. If the first lines are matched against eachother, as I said above, they will mostly be seeing Philly's second line. Pavelich is an elite defensive LW, and while Dye isn't the best player on this line, he is the line's finisher. Mosdell is another great shutdown-defensive player who Montreal sent out to face their opponents' top lines. Pie MacKenzie is a plus defensively, but not as good as the other two. However, he is great at being a pest brings a good physical game. He will be instructed to pound on the injury-prone Moore as will my defensemen. We are hoping to wear down Moore as the series goes on...he already faced some heavy hitters in round 1 (Eddie Shore, Red Horner, Lionel Conacher, and Rick Tocchet). With the support of a solid defensive pairings we think that this line will be effective against Philly's 2nd. This probably goes without saying, but we are not expecting much offensive production here.

4th lines won't see much ice time, but I think mine is better put together than Philly's, and are a threat to score if they are out against each other. Smith is the goal scorer, Weight the playmaker, and MacGregor the defensive conscience. Smith and Weight bring enough grit. Kenny Wharram seems out of place on a 4th line. He is an offensive player, but I don't think Linden is good enough offensively for them to produce much.


A few words on Tommy Smith...

One of the best 4th liners in the draft and a great goal scorer. Ian Fyffe makes a convincing case that he was the best player on the Cup winning Quebec Bulldogs over Joe Malone (Malone would obviously pass him later). Dreakmur's consolidated stats give him a 1st, 2nd, 3rd in points and 1st, 1st, 2nd in goals. Those stats only go back to 1912, before which Smith led four different leagues in both goals and points a total of 5 times.


Defense
Since Billy is breaking up his top defensemen the pairings are a little tougher to compare. I think the pairings on both teams are put together well in terms of partner chemistry. As far as personnel goes, I think I have the better squad, and here's a crude look at where each guy might fall... Salming is slightly above Quackenbush as a below average #1, as a high-end #2 Johnson is slightly above Goodfellow (probably more than Salming's edge, but the #1 is more important, so we're about even at this point). Ross is an average to above average #3, while Goldham, Boivin, Reise, and Green are slightly above average to high end #4's. I would call Dallas Smith an above average #6, and I think Larson and Enngblom are average #6's.

We are about even in terms of the top two D, but my defensive depth from there on is much better. I think Ted Green is an important player on my team. He has a pretty good offensive game, and the fact that he can play on a 2nd pairing gives Ivan the ability to put out a very offensive pair of Ross-Green when a goal is needed that won't be a liability defensively.

When it comes to the playoffs many people assume that the entire third pairing doesn't get a lot of minutes, but in fact many of the more successful playoff teams since the lockout give the 5th defenseman significant minutes with just the 6th remaining on the bench a lot...CAR 2006 5th D only played 2min/game less than 4th...PIT in 2008 and 2009, 4th and 5th D played about the same amount...CHI 2010 5th D played only 1 minute/game less than 4th. With Green being such a good #5 we will implement this strategy.


Special Teams

I disagree with Billy's assessment of the PP units going by position, which is especially irrelevant on the PP. If you just go by strongest to weakest player it goes Howe over Morenz, Cook over Kariya, and Martinec over Nieuwendyk. I agree that Salming is the best Dman on either unit, and Philly holds the advantage on the blueline. I think these two units are close (Nieuwendyk is a good PP player).

It all becomes a lot less relevant when you look at who each unit will be facing...My 1st PK unit is much better than Philly's. I think I hold the edge at both the forward and defense positions. Pavelich and Mosdell are solid 1st unit PKers while Stanfield-Primeau seem more like 2nd unit guys. Salming is a good PKer, but Smith is below average for 1st unit. Johnson-Goldham are big tough guys that will make life miserable for whoever is in front of the net...Goldham is known as one of the best shot blockers ever.

As far as 1st unit special teams go...Chicago has the edge, as the PP's are close, but the Chicago unit will be facing a much easier opponent.

The 2nd units are closer, with an edge to Philly. I agree that the PP unit of Philly is easily better than mine, it's probably one of the best 2nd units in the draft, while I'd call ours just average. As stated above, I think Billy is underrating the offense of Smith. Here is a further look at Ted Green an the PP that I posted in the Lineup Assassination Thread...

Quote:
2nd Ted Green's PP ability may look worse at first glance than it really is because of his team situation. Here's a breakdown...

1962: No significant PP time
1963: No significant PP time
1964: 8th on team in PP pts, 3rd among Dmen
1965: 3rd on team in PP pts, 1st among Dmen
1966: 5th on team in PP pts, 2nd among Dmen
1967: 4th on team in PP pts, 2nd among Dmen (behind Orr)
1968: 6th on team in PP pts, 2nd among Dmen (behind Orr)
1969: 5th on team in PP pts, 2nd among Dmen (behind Orr)
1970: Did Not Play
1971: No significant PP time
1972: No significant PP time
1973 onward he's in the WHA which I don't have numbers for

Some things to think about...
1. No defenseman in history is going to be getting PP time over Bobby Orr, and Green was right behind him for 3 years.

2.In 1971 and 1972 Orr was the only defenseman with significant PP time...all the other players were forwards, so it looks like Boston was going with 4 forwards + Orr on their PP.

3. 6 full WHA seasons are unaccounted for.

Once again, I think Chicago has an advantage on the 2nd PK units, though not nearly as large as on the 1st. On the backend, Quackenbush is the best defensive player on either unit and gets the edge over Goodfellow. I'd call Reise and Engblom about even. I don't know why you think we will have trouble in front. Both of my guys aren't real physical, but they aren't small either where they can get pushed around. They aren't great crease clearers, but certainly not a liability. Up front I think the advantage is mine again...MacGregor was a PK mainstay and it's proven by his 4 Top 10's in SH goals. If you don't think Noble's play as a defenseman translate to him playing forward they certainly work here where he is actively focusing on defense only. I think Chicago's PK unit is clearly better than Philly's, but not enough to overcome the advantage Philly has on the PP units.

Overall, I think special teams are an advantage to Chicago, with their 1st unit edge being larger than Philly's 2nd unit edge. The 1st units also see more ice time and are therefore should be weighted more heavily.





I have to leave right now, so I'm going to stop here. This is the bulk of my analysis. I will add a little more tomorrow...

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 11:50 AM
  #62
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Another thing that should be mentioned is that I don't think Philly's 1st line puts Howe in the best situation to really get the most out of him. Howe is the only physical presence on the line and will need to stick up for Paul Kariya when my defense starts pounding him. Also, Nieuwendyk is only a small plus defensively...don't think he was ever going up against the other team's best (for sure not in Calgary where it would've been Gilmour or Dallas where it would've been Modano/Carbs). When up against a line that is a threat offensively Howe will have to help out with defensive responsibilites. These extra duties for Howe will diminish Howe's offensive effectiveness some (he will still be a huge threat). He certainly was not relied on to help out in these areas in real life as much as he will be here.
Howe is not the only physical presence on the line. Nieuwendyk supplies some grit and tenacity in his game as well. It seems a lot of people really do not like Joe Nieuwendyk, at all. Here are some quotes from his bio:

Quote:
Known as an aggressive player in front of the net as well as an exceptional passer,

Joe Nieuwendyk, who played the game with size and speed and strength.

We all go out and do the same thing: We frustrate people. I don't know how many times this year players on other teams have skated up to me and said, "Will you give us some room here?"

The goal was set up because of good forechecking by Langenbrunner and Nieuwendyk.

Nieuwendyk, 35, still has game-breaking talent. Nieuwendyk, who has yet to play with either Petr Sykora or Patrik Elias, gives the Devils a center who can play with finesse and ferocity.
He's no Howe, but he's not afraid to play physical in front of the net, and if need be, help Howe in the corners. He was also known as a guy that would do whatever his coach told him to, which allowed him to fit into a high-flying, high scoring team in Calgary, and then in two very defensive systems like Dallas and New Jersey. He can adapt to what he needs to do. So if we tell him to help Howe cycle in the corners, he'll do it.

Quote:
Forward Line Matchups
Again, I would like to say how the LW-LW, C-C, RW-RW comparisons that Billy does really leave out a lot when discussing lines, like who play what role, how players will work together, etc.

I think my 1st line actually wins the matchup against Philly's when you look at how they will play each other. Chicago's first line is a much better two-way line with 2 players that are good defensively in Morenz and Noble. I know Gordie Howe is better offensively than Morenz, but I think Neiuwendyk will have a harder time checking Morenz than Noble does on Howe. Morenz is A LOT faster than Nieuwendyk, and Morenz's linemates will be able to keep up with him. Backed up by a solid shutdown pairing that can get them the puck, I think Philly is in trouble when my team gets possession and transitions with all that speed. There isn't a ton of difference between Martinec and Kariya...similar players in similar roles...Martinec handles a physical opponent better than Kariya, but any differences here aren't really going to make or break anything.

It should be mentioned that Joe Nieuwendyk's even strength goal scoring is not as good as his Top 10 finishes indicate...In the years he finishes 5, 5, 7, 7, 9 in total goal scoring he was only 9, 10, 16, 36, 62 in even strength goal scoring.
Since you don't like my system, I'll use a system you cannot argue with. We'll look at the best player on each line and compare him to the best player on the other line. So first best player on each line compared to the best player on the other line.

Howe vs. Morenz: I don't need to go into detail, Howe has more than double the top 10 finishes in points than Morenz in a harder era. Both are good two-way players. Howe brings more physicality.

Kariya vs. Martinec: You can see my thoughts on Martinec a few posts above. I think Kariya is a better player, personally. Martinec won best RW at the WC 4 times, Kariya was named the top LW in the NHL 3 times, and twice two more times in a deeper era.

Nieuwendyk vs. Noble: Here are Noble's Vs1 numbers: 83, 67, 62, 61, 62, and 71. Here are Nieuwendyk's Vs2(with Gretzky and Lemieux removed): 70, 53, 74, 74*, 51, 63, 76, 51, 54*, 64, 57, 53*

*Vs3 2nd place was an outlier

Nieuwendyk's total is 740. Noble's total is 406. Offensively, Nieuwendyk is better than Noble. Add in the fact that Noble's finishes are all pre-consolidation and are missing guys from the PCHA and WCHL, they look even less impressive. Noble brings two-way play and physicality. I'll give Noble an edge in physicality, but two-way play I'm not sure. Some quotes on Nieuwendyk:

Quote:
he was a complete player. Aside from chronic back injuries, he had no real weakness in his game.

a key defensive cog as part of Canada's Olympic entries in 1998 and 2002

Nieuwendyk, a fine two-way player, would be a perfect fit in Detroit

"He was an all-around elite player," said Montreal Canadiens general manager Bob Gainey, Nieuwendyk's boss in Dallas. "He was the kind of player whose accomplishments merit consideration for the Hall of Fame."

''The transition has been good,'' Nieuwendyk said. ''I like this team's style. It's a style I'm accustomed to. We play defense first and create offense from there. I couldn't ask for a better situation.''
I'm not seeing where Reg Noble has some advantage over Nieuwendyk here. I'm still convinced I have the better first line.

Quote:
Philly basically went with more of a 3rd scoring line instead of a checking line. I want my 2nd line out there as much as possible against that 3rd line. They are simply not good enough defensively to handle such a high powered offensive line like mine. Graves appears to be a fine defensive player, but Bill Cook is an elite power forward. Graves will more than have his hands full with him, and really isn't getting much help from his linemates.
Graves was the guy assigned to go up against the Legion of Doom line in the 1997 playoffs, so he knows what it's like to play against big, physical guys. I disagree that he won't be getting help from his linemates. Stanfield was known as a good two-way center, and a guy who was good on the forecheck and fairly physical as well. And that's the kind of player that should be able to play against Bill Cook with some effectiveness when working with Graves.

Quote:
Fredrickson-Cook should be a lethal combo, with Fredrickson's playmaking setting up Cook who is an elite goal scorer. Hay is a balanced player that plays creatively, so he should fit in nicely on offense. I think a team like mine with 2 lines that are very strong offensive threats is the worst-case scenario for how Philly is set up, and this matchup will be the payoff.
If you're going to use the argument that Howe is the only puck winner on his line and that it's going to limit his effectiveness, then that argument applies even more to Bill Cook. Howe has Nieuwendyk to work with, AND Howe is necessarily the guy that we're going to look to have shooting. Kariya has four top 10s in goals, and Nieuwendyk has five. You, yourself, said that you're going to be looking for Cook the "elite goal scorer" to score the goals. How is he going to do that behind the net, digging for pucks? He's your only puck winner on that line. Hay and Fredrickson have no semblance of physicality that I know of, meaning Cook will be digging for pucks instead of setting himself up for goals in the slot. Fredrickson is your playmaker, so that would leave George Hay as your shooter, which is a less than ideal scenario.

Defense
Since Billy is breaking up his top defensemen the pairings are a little tougher to compare. I think the pairings on both teams are put together well in terms of partner chemistry. As far as personnel goes, I think I have the better squad, and here's a crude look at where each guy might fall... Salming is slightly above Quackenbush as a below average #1, as a high-end #2 Johnson is slightly above Goodfellow (probably more than Salming's edge, but the #1 is more important, so we're about even at this point). Ross is an average to above average #3, while Goldham, Boivin, Reise, and Green are slightly above average to high end #4's. I would call Dallas Smith an above average #6, and I think Larson and Enngblom are average #6's.[/quote]

I agree, you've got the better first and third pairings, which gives you the better defense overall. I have the better 2nd pairing, but your advantages in the other more important area of 1st pairing gives you the advantage here.

Quote:

Special Teams

I disagree with Billy's assessment of the PP units going by position, which is especially irrelevant on the PP. If you just go by strongest to weakest player it goes Howe over Morenz, Cook over Kariya, and Martinec over Nieuwendyk. I agree that Salming is the best Dman on either unit, and Philly holds the advantage on the blueline. I think these two units are close (Nieuwendyk is a good PP player).
The first PP units are close, and calling them a wash wouldn't be unreasonable.

Quote:
It all becomes a lot less relevant when you look at who each unit will be facing...My 1st PK unit is much better than Philly's. I think I hold the edge at both the forward and defense positions. Pavelich and Mosdell are solid 1st unit PKers while Stanfield-Primeau seem more like 2nd unit guys. Salming is a good PKer, but Smith is below average for 1st unit. Johnson-Goldham are big tough guys that will make life miserable for whoever is in front of the net...Goldham is known as one of the best shot blockers ever.
Pavelich and Mosdell are both good first unit PKers, but I disagree with your assessment of Primeau and Fleming(not Stanfield). Quotes on Fleming:

Quote:
he was an extraordinary penalty killer. Another reason for his great penalty killing was he was a superb defensive forward, as many players are once they are converted from the blueline to the forward position. Fleming already had a great understanding of defensive positioning by the time he moved up.

He was also a good penalty killer.

Regarded as a tough-as-nails defenseman who accrued 1,468 penalty minutes in 749 career games for the Hawks and four other teams, Fleming was particularly valuable as a penalty killer.
Primeau:

Quote:
He was as good a defensive center and penalty killer as there was in his day.

In New York one night, with the Leafs two men short and a goal up on the Rangers, he ragged the puck for two solid minutes with Ranger players chasing him all over the ice. It was such a dauntless display that everybody in the arena cheered him as he staggered wearily to the bench, almost in a state of collapse, when his penalty-killing chore ended.
Dallas Smith killed 49% of the penalties on the Bruins dynasty team. He's tied for 40th all time post-expansion in PK usage. He killed basically half the penalties for two cup winning teams. It was Orr and Dallas Smith(not Green, Awrey, or Rick Smith) who did the heavy lifting for the Big Bad Bruins. I think he's fine on a first unit for this fact.

Quote:
Once again, I think Chicago has an advantage on the 2nd PK units, though not nearly as large as on the 1st. On the backend, Quackenbush is the best defensive player on either unit and gets the edge over Goodfellow. I'd call Reise and Engblom about even. I don't know why you think we will have trouble in front. Both of my guys aren't real physical, but they aren't small either where they can get pushed around. They aren't great crease clearers, but certainly not a liability. Up front I think the advantage is mine again...MacGregor was a PK mainstay and it's proven by his 4 Top 10's in SH goals. If you don't think Noble's play as a defenseman translate to him playing forward they certainly work here where he is actively focusing on defense only. I think Chicago's PK unit is clearly better than Philly's, but not enough to overcome the advantage Philly has on the PP units.
I definitely think Reise is a better PK defenseman than Engblom. Reise was one of the largest defensemen of his time, and was known as a physical player who could clear the crease in front of the net. You basically just ignored all the percentages I used for Linden and MacGregor. I'll maintain that Linden is the better penalty killer. Two of those top 10s in SHG came with just one goal. MacGregor has 13 career SHG, and Linden has 18.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 12:16 PM
  #63
Sturminator
I voted for Kodos
 
Sturminator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: West Egg, New York
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 7,386
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Interesting. This could explain the difference between Martinec's reputation and actual stats. Is there a breakdown of game-by-game performances and box scores from individual games for the World Championships? That way we could figure out how each performed against the best competition.
That would be nice and some of the information is out there, but I've never seen it all consolidated in a single place.

The Soviets were scared of Martinec much moreso than any of the other Czech forwards of his time. They went to the point of fouling him in order to get him off of the ice, Valeri Vasiliev being the most notable transgressor. As it is for Maltsev, Balderis and Yakushev in the Soviet League, Martinec's stats relative to his peers in the Czech elite league have to be taken with a large grain of salt because of the lack of balance in the league. The Czechs had a similar system to the Soviets in which most of the national team players were gathered on a single domestic league team - in this case Kladno, for which Novy played. There is no doubt in my mind that Martinec was easily the better player, whatever the domestic league stats say.

Sturminator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 03:44 PM
  #64
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Nieuwendyk vs. Noble: Here are Noble's Vs1 numbers: 83, 67, 62, 61, 62, and 71. Here are Nieuwendyk's Vs2(with Gretzky and Lemieux removed): 70, 53, 74, 74*, 51, 63, 76, 51, 54*, 64, 57, 53*

*Vs3 2nd place was an outlier

Nieuwendyk's total is 740. Noble's total is 406. Offensively, Nieuwendyk is better than Noble.
So if you add up Nieuenedyk's best 12 seasons you get a higher number than Noble's best 6 seasons? Shocking!

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 03:46 PM
  #65
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,866
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
That would be nice and some of the information is out there, but I've never seen it all consolidated in a single place.

The Soviets were scared of Martinec much moreso than any of the other Czech forwards of his time. They went to the point of fouling him in order to get him off of the ice, Valeri Vasiliev being the most notable transgressor. As it is for Maltsev, Balderis and Yakushev in the Soviet League, Martinec's stats relative to his peers in the Czech elite league have to be taken with a large grain of salt because of the lack of balance in the league. The Czechs had a similar system to the Soviets in which most of the national team players were gathered on a single domestic league team - in this case Kladno, for which Novy played. There is no doubt in my mind that Martinec was easily the better player, whatever the domestic league stats say.
Martinec was also voted Czech player of the year 4 times, based I'm sure on a mix of domestic and international play. So it's not a Kharlamov case where his MVP voting was only a little better than that of 2 contemporaries (Mikhailov and Maltsev).

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 03:59 PM
  #66
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
Most of what I have to say is in the long post I made earlier. There are obviously some things that Billy and I just aren't going to agree on...we've both made our cases for the voters on those topics.

One thing I do want to address is Frank Fredrickson's physical game...he does not bring a big physical game like Cook or Howe, but he is a large man and was bigger than most men of his era...seventies adjusted size puts him at 6'3"-6'4". He's not going to go around laying huge checks but he will use that size to win puck battles, etc. I believe last year someone compared him to Mats Sundin...not a big hitter, but a big guy who definitely used his size to gain an edge over others. I think this is a fair evaluation.


Miscellaneous
Borje Salming is playing on the #1 pairing and 1st units of both special teams. After doing that all season and through one playoff round already he could start to wear down some. He played a lot of minutes in real life, but he was also an elite #1 defenseman in real life...he is not in the ATD.


Bill Cook will see time on both the 3rd and 4th lines to get him extra ice time.




Summary of How and Why Chicago Will Win This Series

- Huge coaching advantage and home ice will allow them to dictate matchups.

- Much better defensive depth than Philly...all 3 D pairs are solid defensively and bring physicality

- Philly's lack of a checking line and overall lack of two-way players up front will get them in trouble against a team like Chicago with 2 high powered scoring lines, and an offensive 4th line.

- Good game plan for Gordie Howe with LW's on 2 different lines that can be used to check him, a very good shutdown D pairing with a guy that can stand up to Howe physically (physical players on the other D pairs as well).

- Wear down the injury prone Dickie Moore by pounding him physically with guys like Cook, MacKenzie, Johnson, Goldham, Green, and Ross.

- Players coach in Ivan that will maximize production from Morenz and Fredrickson

- Biggest weakness (goaltender) helped out as much as he can be by a backup that's a good fit, extra coaching, and team style.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-21-2012, 04:11 PM
  #67
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,275
vCash: 500
Forgot to comment on this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
PK

We've got data for half of MacGregor's career, 7 of 14 seasons. He killed 34.1% of his team's penalties over 480 games in that span. I think it's reasonable to say that MacGregor killed penalties at this pace for most of his career before that. Even if we give him credit for killing penalties at that rate his entire career(unlikely because rookies rarely kill penalties and most guys don't start killing penalties until 2 or 3 years in), is 1.1% more PKing more impressive if it's for 400 less games(ballparking for adjusting MacGregor's career games played)? I don't think so.
Of course MacGregor is going to have less games played, he played primarily in the 60's when schedule lengths were shorter. Also, when you start talking about 1,000+ games how much do those extra games really matter? Bottom line is that when including 2 WHA years he played 15+ seasons and over 1,000 games, and based on SH points, was a PKer from his second season until retirement.

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2012, 12:54 AM
  #68
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So if you add up Nieuenedyk's best 12 seasons you get a higher number than Noble's best 6 seasons? Shocking!
Lol

Best argument ever

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-22-2012, 08:33 AM
  #69
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
I've got more two-way forwards than you do. If we're given credit for the guy having any sort of defensive reputation, you've got 7(Morenz, Noble, Fredrickson, Pavelich, Mosdell, McKenzie, and MacGregor) and I've got 8(Howe, Nieuwendyk, Moore, Primeau, Stanfield, Graves, Fleming, and Linden).

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 11:21 AM
  #70
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I've got more two-way forwards than you do. If we're given credit for the guy having any sort of defensive reputation, you've got 7(Morenz, Noble, Fredrickson, Pavelich, Mosdell, McKenzie, and MacGregor) and I've got 8(Howe, Nieuwendyk, Moore, Primeau, Stanfield, Graves, Fleming, and Linden).
You missed George Hay, that would make it 8-8. Here is how I would rank the 24 starting forwards in this series defensively if I had to:

Pavelich
Noble

Graves
Morenz
Mosdell
Linden
Primeau
Stanfield
Fleming
Hay
MacGregor
Howe
Moore
McKenzie
Fredrickson
Nieuwendyk
Weight
Cook
Wharram
Kariya
Martinec
Hyland
Dye
Smith

with four of the top 5 defensive forwards in the series I would have to say that there is more two-way ability in Chicago's lineup of forwards. But you are mostly right in that if you draw an imaginary line after Nieuwendyk, you both have 8 forwards above that line.

estimating Reg Fleming's PK prowess

Fleming killed just 18% of penalties post-expansion for teams 4% worse than average. During this time he scored 3 SHP in 288 games. In his pre-expansion career he scored 8 SHP in 461 games. Using SHP, something there is such a small sample size for, as an indicator to estimate PK time pre-expansion is dangerous, but I'll try.

It's a fairly simple calculation. If we know that 18% usage leads to about 0.010 SHP/gp, then you must be used about 70% more to score 70% more SHP/gp (0.017). 18*1.70 = 31%. as for how good his teams were on the PK, existing data shows that Fleming's teams averaged exactly average on the PK in 1964-1967 (.983, 1.023, 1.029, .964) - and the correllation between team GA and PK numbers is so weak in this period that there's no way to extrapolate GA to estimated PK efficiency in 1961 to 1963, so we have to just call that average.

So if his pre-expansion usage is 31% and 1.00 for 461 games and his post-expansion usage is 18% and 1.04 for 288 games, this would make his career record as follows:

26% usage for teams 1% worse than average.

This isn't like putting Bob Nystrom (who never killed penalties) on a PK, but he looks like he would be very far below average even on an ATD 2nd unit.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 12:20 PM
  #71
Hawkman
Moderator
Sharpshooter
 
Hawkman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,491
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I've got more two-way forwards than you do. ...
My dad can beat up your dad.

Hawkman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 12:26 PM
  #72
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 39,866
vCash: 500
You have a much higher opinion of the defensive abilities of Morenz, Hay, and especially Stanfield than I do and a much lower opinion of Martinec's D.

I'm still not sure where I stand on Noble as a forward defensively

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 12:34 PM
  #73
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You have a much higher opinion of the defensive abilities of Morenz, Hay, and especially Stanfield than I do and a much lower opinion of Martinec's D.

I'm still not sure where I stand on Noble as a forward defensively
what would your list look like?

martinec is that low because I know nothing about his defense. Morenz and Hay, I think, are well enough substantiated. Stanfield could drop, I agree that his two-way play might be a bit overstated but I don't know how much further down I could put him, either.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 01:04 PM
  #74
BillyShoe1721
Terriers
 
BillyShoe1721's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,724
vCash: 50
Send a message via AIM to BillyShoe1721
George Hay is a two-way player? Where is that coming from? I see nothing in his bio to indicate that at all. And Reg Noble the 2nd best defensive forward in this series? And he's a better two-way forward than Dickie Moore, who was called one of the greatest two-way left wings in history by two different sources? I usually agree with you seventies, but those rankings make no sense.

BillyShoe1721 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-23-2012, 01:16 PM
  #75
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 24,260
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
George Hay is a two-way player? Where is that coming from? I see nothing in his bio to indicate that at all. And Reg Noble the 2nd best defensive forward in this series? And he's a better two-way forward than Dickie Moore, who was called one of the greatest two-way left wings in history by two different sources? I usually agree with you seventies, but those rankings make no sense.
which rankings make no sense, aside from apparently Hay and Moore?

If you're not seeing anything in Hay's current bio, check a couple of his older ones; I know this information has been presented before. I needed a LW on my 2nd line who wasn't one-dimensional last year, at one point I wanted Hay for his defensive ability and had to settle on Adams instead.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.