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04-21-2012, 02:40 PM
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Our Collapsing Def. vs Ottawa

The Rangers have played a collapsed defense for pretty much the entire year. What this does is it allows them to block shots and keep the slot closed up, forcing the opposition to the outside most of the time. The other side of this coin is that the collapsing system gives Ottawa's point-men lots of time and opportunities to shoot (see Karlsson shooting as much as he does against us).

Do you guys think that this is an effective defensive strategy against a team like Ottawa who isn't afraid to wait for a shooting lane to open up and rip one? While blocking shots can be a very effective strategy for keeping pucks away from our net, it also isn't the most reliable strategy in my opinion. I say this because blocking shots can be a negative in two ways: First off, whether we actually block the shot or not, Hank is getting screened on the play. Secondly, blocking a shot isn't always guaranteed and there are many ways for a point-man to get the puck by. For example he can fake our wingers out or a shot can deflect off our winger and head towards our net leaving an unsuspecting Hank to make a great save.

Now I'm not trying to talk crap about our defensive strategy as it obviously did its job throughout the season... but what I'm concerned about is the number of chances Ottawa seems to be getting from their point-men. Do you guys think playing a tighter defense on the point would be a positive or a negative? This would leave SOME room in our higher slot area and could be risky, and honestly maybe our players don't have the speed to pull it off or just aren't that "type" of team (which is why Torts uses this system).

Just a couple of random thoughts I was thinking while watching Karlsson rip shots endlessly.

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04-21-2012, 02:49 PM
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Honestly when you're watching the games it looks bad because Ottawa is putting on so much pressure but on the other hand its worked all season so I think we should stick with it. We need our top guys to step up and do some damage and we wouldnt even be talking about Ottawa anymore. We let 2 of the 4 games slip away from us so far.

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04-21-2012, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by SRTtoZ View Post
Honestly when you're watching the games it looks bad because Ottawa is putting on so much pressure but on the other hand its worked all season so I think we should stick with it. We need our top guys to step up and do some damage and we wouldnt even be talking about Ottawa anymore. We let 2 of the 4 games slip away from us so far.
Amen to that Brohan. We should be out of this series... in a positive way.

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04-21-2012, 03:20 PM
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I think it comes down to the same thing it's come down all year: the weak transition game.

We've had alot of opportunities I've seen in this series, where we made the big block or the big hit, to get the puck out of the zone and we can't do it. We don't get the puck out the 1st time we get a stick on it, or even the 2nd or the 3rd time. When it takes 4, 5, 6 attempts to get the puck out and up the ice the other team is gonna have alot of possession and alot of chances. I think our defense is fine as far as stopping chances and taking possession. The problem is, that's the rarely the end of it.

I think the strategy is fine as far as making the stop. It's how many times they have to make the stop that's causing problems.

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04-21-2012, 03:22 PM
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Sens fan coming in peace.

I think you're right thats a two edged sword even though I don't agree that the goalie is being screened. If anything, I think that by going down to block so many shots, it's been allowing the goalie to see the shots better. My concern would be that it's allowing Ottawa to maintain offensive pressure and keep the Ranger's offensive players from counter attacking.

All the collapsing is giving Ottawa's offence a lot more trouble than you might think. Ottawa was a top-5 scoring team and hasn't lead for a single minute of the series, so it's not like the tactic isn't working. The Rangers are killing the zone where 70-80% of goals are scored from, so of course it's going to be successful.

On the other hand it's essentially ceded the control of the play to the offence and allowing Ottawa a better chance to gain control of rebounds, allowing Ottawa more control of the play than they would otherwise have. Ottawa has a mediocre defence and a mediocre goalie, neither are great but they're not horrible either. The collapsing/shot blocking is inhibiting the NYR counter attack, IMHO, because you don't recover the puck as much as you would by challenging the shooter and looking for more turnovers/odd man rushes.

I think that NYR doesn't really have a choice BUT to continue the strategy at this late stage. They've done it all season to great success, and even if Ottawa wins, it will be close.

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04-21-2012, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I think it comes down to the same thing it's come down all year: the weak transition game.

We've had alot of opportunities I've seen in this series, where we made the big block or the big hit, to get the puck out of the zone and we can't do it. We don't get the puck out the 1st time we get a stick on it, or even the 2nd or the 3rd time. When it takes 4, 5, 6 attempts to get the puck out and up the ice the other team is gonna have alot of possession and alot of chances. I think our defense is fine as far as stopping chances and taking possession. The problem is, that's the rarely the end of it.

I think the strategy is fine as far as making the stop. It's how many times they have to make the stop that's causing problems.
Basically this! I think Bruins have one of the best breakouts in the East, we should be learning a thing or 2 from them. Also our lack of ability to hold pressure in offensive zone hurts us too. Teams are just catching on to easily on our behind the net play.

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04-21-2012, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
I think it comes down to the same thing it's come down all year: the weak transition game.

We've had alot of opportunities I've seen in this series, where we made the big block or the big hit, to get the puck out of the zone and we can't do it. We don't get the puck out the 1st time we get a stick on it, or even the 2nd or the 3rd time. When it takes 4, 5, 6 attempts to get the puck out and up the ice the other team is gonna have alot of possession and alot of chances. I think our defense is fine as far as stopping chances and taking possession. The problem is, that's the rarely the end of it.

I think the strategy is fine as far as making the stop. It's how many times they have to make the stop that's causing problems.
I agree that the transition game is a big issue, and I would attribute it to the speed of Ottawa. We've seen this team struggle against major speed all year, and Ottawa has that.

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04-21-2012, 04:11 PM
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I agree that the transition game is a big issue, and I would attribute it to the speed of Ottawa. We've seen this team struggle against major speed all year, and Ottawa has that.
Nah. Our breakouts are crap because its obvious they don't practice it enough. This team struggles with 4 ft passes.

That has nothing to do with Ottawa's speed.

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04-21-2012, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by IranCondraAffair View Post
Sens fan coming in peace.
...On the other hand it's essentially ceded the control of the play to the offence and allowing Ottawa a better chance to gain control of rebounds, allowing Ottawa more control of the play than they would otherwise have. Ottawa has a mediocre defence and a mediocre goalie, neither are great but they're not horrible either. The collapsing/shot blocking is inhibiting the NYR counter attack, IMHO, because you don't recover the puck as much as you would by challenging the shooter and looking for more turnovers/odd man rushes.
Funny, but I agree with your points, and you are a Senators fan. They are the ones I have made too. I think it would be beneficial for NYR to put more pressure out on the point.
Sure, I'm just an armchair coach here, but I still believe that the Rangers concede too much, and forfeit the potential of forcing a quick and possibly dangerous turnover, with the fallback method of defending.

I guess tonight we will see how things go.

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04-21-2012, 04:21 PM
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Not worried about D

Not worried about Henke

The recipe for success remains the same for NYR... get Lundqvist a 2.45 goal lead.

Score more goals = Winning

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04-21-2012, 04:22 PM
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Nah. Our breakouts are crap because its obvious they don't practice it enough. This team struggles with 4 ft passes.

That has nothing to do with Ottawa's speed.
The Rangers hustle hard for loose pucks , allowing them to win 50/50 situations. That's how they are able to take away zone time from most teams. There aren't as many 50/50 pucks with a team that has speed to burn like Ottawa. The team is capable of breaking out effectively once they have the puck, but they just haven't been able to get to it against Ottawa.

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04-21-2012, 04:33 PM
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I do not recollect a team that won SC with collapsing defense. having said that I do not like it and it has cost us 2 overtime losses


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04-21-2012, 04:52 PM
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Our breakouts are not good either.. thanks to whoever brought that up. Whether it be us having the puck and looking for a pass, or us just trying to get the puck out of the zone after some sustained pressure, we aren't that good at either. I mean, when it comes to just clearing the puck to alleviate the pressure, the main flaw I see is our "stick strength" or "stick skill". A clear case is Marc Staal... there have been plenty of opportunities for him to clear the puck and he gets his stick on it but he either fumbles the puck or takes too long and an Ottawa player impedes him.

Our own zone play hasn't been what it needs to be in this series, which is a shame because if you look back to what it was before and around the Winter Classic, you will see that teams didn't have a chance in our zone.

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04-21-2012, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SRTtoZ View Post
Honestly when you're watching the games it looks bad because Ottawa is putting on so much pressure but on the other hand its worked all season so I think we should stick with it. We need our top guys to step up and do some damage and we wouldnt even be talking about Ottawa anymore. We let 2 of the 4 games slip away from us so far.
I don't know. It wasn't to the same degree in the regular season. These teams get to know each other pretty well over a playoff round. All I've noticed is that the exploitation is getting to be a habit for Ottawa. Possibly causing Rangers to get kind of tired out because they get pinned for longer than is desireable in their own zone.

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04-21-2012, 05:17 PM
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OTT is well aware if the stretch to tip in chip and chase . They are keeping a d man back in the zone and getting the puck and moving it quick BEFORE THE FORE CHECK ARRIVES ..... NYR must b able to skate or pass and skate THEN ESTABLISH A FORE CHECK AND OFF zone presence . If they continue to stretch pass tip in dump they are in trouble .... OTT caught on to that in the 3 rd period of game 1 . They hAve basically outplayed us from that point on because CLOWN TORTS CONTINUES TO TRY AND HAMMER A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE

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04-21-2012, 05:21 PM
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OTT is well aware if the stretch to tip in chip and chase . They are keeping a d man back in the zone and getting the puck and moving it quick BEFORE THE FORE CHECK ARRIVES ..... NYR must b able to skate or pass and skate THEN ESTABLISH A FORE CHECK AND OFF zone presence . If they continue to stretch pass tip in dump they are in trouble .... OTT caught on to that in the 3 rd period of game 1 . They hAve basically outplayed us from that point on because CLOWN TORTS CONTINUES TO TRY AND HAMMER A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE
One of the most useless things Torts has implemented in our game. Stretch pass tip ins.

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04-21-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by I Am Chariot View Post
Not worried about D

Not worried about Henke

The recipe for success remains the same for NYR... get Lundqvist a 2.45 goal lead.

Score more goals = Winning
this. unless we are playing solid like in game 3, against this offense, you need to get at least 3 goals to win. 3 goals in games 2 and 4 = series sweep. game 1 we stormed them and held on with a big lead.

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04-22-2012, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
OTT is well aware if the stretch to tip in chip and chase . They are keeping a d man back in the zone and getting the puck and moving it quick BEFORE THE FORE CHECK ARRIVES ..... NYR must b able to skate or pass and skate THEN ESTABLISH A FORE CHECK AND OFF zone presence . If they continue to stretch pass tip in dump they are in trouble .... OTT caught on to that in the 3 rd period of game 1 . They hAve basically outplayed us from that point on because CLOWN TORTS CONTINUES TO TRY AND HAMMER A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE
Right on man. It's like we're afraid/incapable of carrying the puck into the zone. It also sucks that our passing is indecisive (see drop passes during a power play) and our decision making is just generally poor (see us not scoring any PP goals).

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04-22-2012, 01:33 AM
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The problem isn't our collapsing D, it's out inept offense. Example A is game 5. We allowed one goal and lost.

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04-22-2012, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorado View Post
OTT is well aware if the stretch to tip in chip and chase . They are keeping a d man back in the zone and getting the puck and moving it quick BEFORE THE FORE CHECK ARRIVES ..... NYR must b able to skate or pass and skate THEN ESTABLISH A FORE CHECK AND OFF zone presence . If they continue to stretch pass tip in dump they are in trouble .... OTT caught on to that in the 3 rd period of game 1 . They hAve basically outplayed us from that point on because CLOWN TORTS CONTINUES TO TRY AND HAMMER A SQUARE PEG IN A ROUND HOLE
Lol, reminds of the "dump and don't chase" from Cory Clouston.

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04-22-2012, 11:05 AM
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The problem is scoring a ****ing goal. These past couple games are reminiscent of the Renney years. Its absolutely brutal.

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04-22-2012, 11:29 AM
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The problem isn't our collapsing D, it's out inept offense. Example A is game 5. We allowed one goal and lost.
I don't understand why though. Well I mean I do, but I don't understand why the hell they don't do more. EX: The rebounds are there and we don't even attempt to get them in. We have a sniper is Gabby (Yeah, 1 sniper won't do it all.), Cally ( Again, 1 man cant win the game for 18 unless it's Hank). 90% of the team went braindead, forcing McD to play offense for the whole team

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04-22-2012, 12:30 PM
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The Rangers have played a collapsed defense for pretty much the entire year. What this does is it allows them to block shots and keep the slot closed up, forcing the opposition to the outside most of the time. The other side of this coin is that the collapsing system gives Ottawa's point-men lots of time and opportunities to shoot (see Karlsson shooting as much as he does against us).

Do you guys think that this is an effective defensive strategy against a team like Ottawa who isn't afraid to wait for a shooting lane to open up and rip one? While blocking shots can be a very effective strategy for keeping pucks away from our net, it also isn't the most reliable strategy in my opinion. I say this because blocking shots can be a negative in two ways: First off, whether we actually block the shot or not, Hank is getting screened on the play. Secondly, blocking a shot isn't always guaranteed and there are many ways for a point-man to get the puck by. For example he can fake our wingers out or a shot can deflect off our winger and head towards our net leaving an unsuspecting Hank to make a great save.

Now I'm not trying to talk crap about our defensive strategy as it obviously did its job throughout the season... but what I'm concerned about is the number of chances Ottawa seems to be getting from their point-men. Do you guys think playing a tighter defense on the point would be a positive or a negative? This would leave SOME room in our higher slot area and could be risky, and honestly maybe our players don't have the speed to pull it off or just aren't that "type" of team (which is why Torts uses this system).

Just a couple of random thoughts I was thinking while watching Karlsson rip shots endlessly.
Great post. Thanks.
Here's the bottom line, IMO:
As to blocking shots, there is a time and a place. Much as any team would like to, you can't press 100% offense 100% of the time.
Blocking shots important to total D effort, when necessary should do it as expertly/efficiently as possible.
To our credit, we do this.

Unfortunately, while we showed increased offense taking play to Sens in game 5, all too often we get outshot. Would like to say forget regular season, except that all the extra drain and strain from such a D intense methodology depletes a team. While this is a very young, very fit team, it does not help, and is more part of the problem and the solution.

Constant eating of the puck and sliding to block shots (setting aside ? of whether or not our Gs are screened and issue of deflections have negative consequences), no matter how you view it, bottom line, is not superior to our pressing the offense in the other team's zone. It is extremely difficult to score, especially if not an open netter, from your side of ice into other team's goal.

Want to win like the old Canadiens, the NHL dynastic equivalent of the Yankees?
Play like them.
Great balance and depth, great D, great O.

This is truly a great team. But it is uneven. It is uneven both as to talent and as to a balanced style.
I have spoken at length --- not alone by the way --- of the need for more snipers on this team.
That will help immensely but it will not undo the errors of the style of play by our team.

Balance. And eventually depth.
If we get more chances, we should be ok.

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04-22-2012, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by IranCondraAffair View Post
Sens fan coming in peace.

I think you're right thats a two edged sword even though I don't agree that the goalie is being screened. If anything, I think that by going down to block so many shots, it's been allowing the goalie to see the shots better. My concern would be that it's allowing Ottawa to maintain offensive pressure and keep the Ranger's offensive players from counter attacking.

All the collapsing is giving Ottawa's offence a lot more trouble than you might think. Ottawa was a top-5 scoring team and hasn't lead for a single minute of the series, so it's not like the tactic isn't working. The Rangers are killing the zone where 70-80% of goals are scored from, so of course it's going to be successful.

On the other hand it's essentially ceded the control of the play to the offence and allowing Ottawa a better chance to gain control of rebounds, allowing Ottawa more control of the play than they would otherwise have. Ottawa has a mediocre defence and a mediocre goalie, neither are great but they're not horrible either. The collapsing/shot blocking is inhibiting the NYR counter attack, IMHO, because you don't recover the puck as much as you would by challenging the shooter and looking for more turnovers/odd man rushes.

I think that NYR doesn't really have a choice BUT to continue the strategy at this late stage. They've done it all season to great success, and even if Ottawa wins, it will be close.
Kudos for your honesty and sportsmanship to a playoff foe.

Rangers must top with totally bs D, D, D, and some more friggin D game, and play balanced game, pushing the O, and responding as needed with D to correctly set up counterattack.

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04-22-2012, 12:45 PM
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I don't understand why though. Well I mean I do, but I don't understand why the hell they don't do more. EX: The rebounds are there and we don't even attempt to get them in. We have a sniper is Gabby (Yeah, 1 sniper won't do it all.), Cally ( Again, 1 man cant win the game for 18 unless it's Hank). 90% of the team went braindead, forcing McD to play offense for the whole team
The problem is not hustle/effort. Our offense is inept for 2 reasons:

1 Don't have the horses (need snipers to finish play/make linemates more threat).
2 We have D first mindset, instead of a more intelligent, balanced mindset, which would attempt to go offense as much as possible, but then recognize/respond properly quickly and fully with D when needed.

We can't out play on hustle, hope to get a goal or 2 (if lucky) then go into shutdown mode.

The "prevent" D in football is also usually ineffective.

We will improve.
We will have Hagelin back.
We need to turn Kreider completely loose, whatever the risk, with the right linemates, especially since Boyle is out.
We need a little luck and we can still be ok.

But we must make our own luck and play SMARTER.

Torts, are you listening??................

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