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Old
04-22-2012, 10:02 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
It's been wrongly reported that way since October. Leino demanding a move to the wing has entered into the realm of Urban Legend.
So you're accusing Vogl of lying then?

Say what you will about TBN reporters, but I've never once thought they'd flat out lie about a player statement. Especially for six months.

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04-22-2012, 10:04 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
Nothing to do with The System?
Feel free to explain to me how the system, as you understand it, held him back.

I find it somewhat amusing that some are trying to put this all on Ruff. His two previous coaches are both well respected and had boatloads of talent on their teams when Leino was there. But the one that got Leino playing at a high level did so through luck, not some brilliant coaching move. Lavy had Leino as a healthy scratch to start the playoffs in 09-10 after he played meh following the trade. After some injuries he finally got in by the last game of the first round. That's also when Lavy finally put Briere back to center after he had played wing all season. Those two were put together and the rest, as they say, is history.

I'm not worried about systems holding Leino back. I think it's simply a matter of finding the right linemates, center in particular, to play with him.

Pommer has been a good fit. Hopefully this offseason they find the right guy to play between them.

Edit: assuming of course the stay together as linemates.


Last edited by joshjull: 04-22-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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04-22-2012, 10:05 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
On Oct. 24, after practice, Ruff said, "Ville mentioned that he'd like to go to the wing."

That has been twisted into Leino going to Ruff and demanding to be moved to wing. It's unfair to Leino (but I still think he's a turd).

But, in message board and media lore, it is now cast in stone: Leino demanded the move.

And so it shall be.
Two can play your word games.

Quote:
Main Entry: demand  [dih-mand, -mahnd] Show IPA
Part of Speech: verb
Definition: ask strongly for something
Synonyms: abuse, appeal, apply, arrogate, badger, beg, beseech, besiege, bid, challenge, charge, cite, claim, clamor for, coerce, command, compel, constrain, counterclaim, direct, dun, enjoin, entreat, exact, expect, force, hit, hit up, impetrate, implore, importune, inquire, insist on, interrogate, knock, nag, necessitate, oblige, order, pester, petition, postulate, pray, press, question, request, require, requisition, solicit, stipulate, sue for, summon, supplicate, tax, urge, whistle for

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04-22-2012, 10:11 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
So you're accusing Vogl of lying then?

Say what you will about TBN reporters, but I've never once thought they'd flat out lie about a player statement. Especially for six months.
He's not lying. I think it's just a matter of Ruff's quote being twisted around from the beginning. I'm sure John believes Leino "asked" to be moved and the "request" was granted.

The mistake Vogl and others made was not being precise about what was said.

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04-22-2012, 10:22 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
He's not lying. I think it's just a matter of Ruff's quote being twisted around from the beginning. I'm sure John believes Leino "asked" to be moved and the "request" was granted.

The mistake Vogl and others made was not being precise about what was said.
So every sportswriter in town simply misinterpreted Lindy's comments on the subject, even though Leino himself confirmed it at the time that he asked to move because he felt more comfortable on the wing.

Right.

Carry on.

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04-22-2012, 10:30 AM
  #56
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Lots of ambiguity here:

http://sabres.nhl.com/club/blogpost....id=DL|BUF|home

Quote:
The plan already appears to be taking shape, as Leino skated in Ennis’ spot on the left wing alongside Drew Stafford and Derek Roy during today’s practice at First Niagara Center.

“Actually, Ville had mentioned that he’d like to go to the wing, so it’s funny how it works,” explained Ruff. “You’d like to find a line and keep them together, that would be the thing that you would hope most. I’d like to see Roy, Leino and Stafford play together for a while and gain some chemistry. I think that’s the most important part. It isn’t position to position, it’s leaving three individuals together for a while and they develop some chemistry.”

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04-22-2012, 11:26 AM
  #57
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Jeez! Anyone who calls this piece "yellow journalism" is very badly jaded! This is a very honest, accurate article that doesn't misrepresent anything. Demanding journalists steer clear of any adjectives or anything even suggestive of an opinion is ridiculous. You know what every article about pro sports would be like, then?

"Sabres Lose, Say They Need to Keep Trying, Keep Putting Pucks On Net, Keep Focused, Work on Winning Battles"

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04-22-2012, 11:27 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Is it just me or did Leino sound a lot like a selfish player?
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Sorta diva-ish......

He wasn't fond of position switches, yet he's the one who asked for the switch. He wants more ice time, even though he's not producing in the time that he is given.

Yeah, based on these comments, I feel like I'm writing him off. Big mistake to sign him unless he turns it around.
Agreed - every interview he's done seems to reinforce his perception that he thinks he's a better player than he really is and that he'll produce only when his terms (linemates, position, ice-time, PP duty) are met. People rip on Roy and previously on Connolly for self-centered, defensive remarks that deflect criticism off their own play elsewhere. Leino seems to do the same IMO.

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04-22-2012, 11:52 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
So every sportswriter in town simply misinterpreted Lindy's comments on the subject, even though Leino himself confirmed it at the time that he asked to move because he felt more comfortable on the wing.

Right.

Carry on.
The interview with Leino is right there on sabres.com, too. At least on Oct. 24, he didn't confirm in any way that he asked to be moved to the wing. He didn't even mention a conversation with Lindy.

I've always wanted to do this. Please provide evidence of your claim. I've provided mine.

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04-22-2012, 11:54 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
What ambiguity?

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04-22-2012, 12:19 PM
  #61
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I thought the article was going to provide much more insight the way it was teased on Twitter. It really didn't say anything we didn't really know. He is honest. He blames himself and others and without directly saying so, the coach for how he was used. However, he did not really earn much more than he got as far as ice time and responsibility. He was not the only player shifted around.

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04-22-2012, 12:40 PM
  #62
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Puckish.........

Is there some insight we're missing that your semantic nitpicking is trying to add?

I'm not jumping on you just tryin to understand if there is an underlying point your trying to make.

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04-22-2012, 01:08 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
Jeez! Anyone who calls this piece "yellow journalism" is very badly jaded! This is a very honest, accurate article that doesn't misrepresent anything. Demanding journalists steer clear of any adjectives or anything even suggestive of an opinion is ridiculous. You know what every article about pro sports would be like, then?

"Sabres Lose, Say They Need to Keep Trying, Keep Putting Pucks On Net, Keep Focused, Work on Winning Battles"
I think calling Leino's preference to play wing a "request" that was "granted" is misrepresenting the facts.

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04-22-2012, 01:12 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by puckish66 View Post
I think calling Leino's preference to play wing a "request" that was "granted" is misrepresenting the facts.
.....okay.....
we only have the coach on record saying he wanted to move back to wing, and then shortly thereafter he was moved.
if this is getting a little too free with the facts, you're being hypersensitive and nitpicky, IMO.

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04-22-2012, 01:14 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Puckish.........

Is there some insight we're missing that your semantic nitpicking is trying to add?

I'm not jumping on you just tryin to understand if there is an underlying point your trying to make.
It's all about how some want Leino to be perceived. A few hours after Lindy said Leino mentioned to him he wouldn't mind playing on the wing, here's Bill Hoppe's Tweet:

BillHoppeSabres Bill Hoppe
Lindy said Ville Leino asked him to go back to the wing. #Sabres

Now, what's a better story? What makes Leino look more like a villain?

Then Vogl caps it off by talking about a request being granted.

I'm just trying to be precise. I'm not as down on Leino as I would be if I knew he went to Lindy and affirmatively asked to be moved to wing. Lindy's version sounds more like Leino dropping a bug in his ear in an informal conversation (Lindy said Ville "mentioned" the idea).

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04-22-2012, 02:06 PM
  #66
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I don't care if Leino said 'So Lindy, playing wing again will be cool' , or 'I demand that I move back to the wing!' . Either way, Leino wanted out of the middle. Doesn't matter to me what way he said it.

These semantic word gymnastics are downright exhausting. It never fails to amaze me how convoluted you can twist a simple statement.

Lindy Ruff said it. Multiple reporters from multiple media outlets reported it. Nobody from the Sabres objected to how it was characterized. What else to you want?

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04-22-2012, 02:32 PM
  #67
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I'm convinced that Puckish is ACTUALLY Mike Harrington at this point

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04-22-2012, 02:46 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Afino View Post
I'm convinced that Puckish is ACTUALLY Mike Harrington at this point
That can't be, he hasn't referred to any of us as "message board denizens" yet like Mike does.

He was using it frequently a few weeks ago, leading me to think that he may have recently purchased his first thesaurus.

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04-22-2012, 04:03 PM
  #69
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There does seem to be a pattern with Ruff. He wastes half a season or more juggling lines, defense pairings and making positional switches trying to determine what works while hoping the goaltending can keep the team in contention.

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04-22-2012, 09:33 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
I don't care if Leino said 'So Lindy, playing wing again will be cool' , or 'I demand that I move back to the wing!' . Either way, Leino wanted out of the middle. Doesn't matter to me what way he said it.

These semantic word gymnastics are downright exhausting. It never fails to amaze me how convoluted you can twist a simple statement.

Lindy Ruff said it. Multiple reporters from multiple media outlets reported it. Nobody from the Sabres objected to how it was characterized. What else to you want?
I agree - whether it was a suggestion or a demand, it ran counter to what Regier and Ruff conveyed of their conversations last summer before signing Leino, where they said several times how Leino expressed to them a "comfort level" playing center from his early days in Finland. And when Leino was interviewed for the first time during training camp, he reiterated not only his career history of playing center longer than wing but added the explanation that he only played wing in Detroit and Philly because both teams had an excess of centers when he arrived in each city.

There is more than just the TBN articles to come away with the sense that he apparently gave an indication to the Sabres of liking the center position to land the contract he got, but when the pressure of his poor start became too great, he wanted a less demanding role on the wing.

And, in Vogl's current article, the admission by Leino that the shift to center didn't bother him as much because things were going well with the team adds credence to the recount Regier and Ruff gave of last summer's discussions with Leino IMO.

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04-23-2012, 07:43 AM
  #71
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It's just hard to take Leino's comments seriously because while he may be honest, and there is probably truth to his words, he's the wrong guy saying it. This team has a massive problem with mental toughness. We breakdown at the first sight of adversity faster then any team in the league it seems. The Lucic/Miller incident is an example of that.

Leino blaming lack of chemistry and whatnot is just another example of a player who is very weak mentally. Great players over come adversity. Sure, they may not produce at their peak but they can have some sort of success. Leino night in and night out looked lost, looked like he had zero desire to play hockey, made dumb passes and scored 8 goals ALL season LONG. Cody McCormick the prior season scored 8 goals.

Leino had ice time and pp time. No excuse to only score 8 goals.

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04-23-2012, 09:12 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1970 View Post
It's just hard to take Leino's comments seriously because while he may be honest, and there is probably truth to his words, he's the wrong guy saying it. This team has a massive problem with mental toughness. We breakdown at the first sight of adversity faster then any team in the league it seems. The Lucic/Miller incident is an example of that.

Leino blaming lack of chemistry and whatnot is just another example of a player who is very weak mentally. Great players over come adversity. Sure, they may not produce at their peak but they can have some sort of success. Leino night in and night out looked lost, looked like he had zero desire to play hockey, made dumb passes and scored 8 goals ALL season LONG. Cody McCormick the prior season scored 8 goals.

Leino had ice time and pp time. No excuse to only score 8 goals.
This is my reaction as well. It rings true, and it doesn't even come off like he has a massive axe to grind. It just sounds like he is frustrated with how things went, and he has shown he's not afraid to say what's on his mind. The trouble is, as you said, he didn't produce this season.

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04-23-2012, 09:34 AM
  #73
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Darcy Regier and Lindy Ruff called it a positive when Derek Roy and Thomas Vanek questioned the coach's methods in season-ending interviews. So I imagine they were giddy to see Ville Leino's remarks in Sunday's News.

Leino's suggested that Ruff misused players, mentioning "a lot of pieces that were kind of out of place" early in the season. He questioned the team's flow, the puck movement from "D" to forwards, the line shuffling, and the lack of team chemistry.

Sure, there's some sour grapes here from Leino, who struggled most of the year. He resisted the move to center and was switched back to wing by late October. But why give a guy six years and $27 million to play center if he's not wild about it in the first place?

The most damning quote, though, was Leino saying he had "to think too much" at times. That sounds like an indictment of Ruff's "system," which often has players overthinking instead of trusting their hockey instincts.
http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/co...icle823322.ece

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04-23-2012, 10:20 AM
  #74
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Not to sound in any way like I agree with something Sullivan wrote, but I have been wondering for over two seasons if Ruff's system does indeed cause hesitation in new players' games. Whether it's a new FA or a rookie call up there will be a break in period, but sometimes I wonder if there is enough of a pattern to think Ruff's system instills some mental uncertaintly that leads to unaggressive play. Maybe I'm grasping at straws for what seems like unexplainable breakdowns. Anyone else wonder the same thing?

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04-23-2012, 10:49 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
Not to sound in any way like I agree with something Sullivan wrote, but I have been wondering for over two seasons if Ruff's system does indeed cause hesitation in new players' games. Whether it's a new FA or a rookie call up there will be a break in period, but sometimes I wonder if there is enough of a pattern to think Ruff's system instills some mental uncertaintly that leads to unaggressive play. Maybe I'm grasping at straws for what seems like unexplainable breakdowns. Anyone else wonder the same thing?
To some extent, every time a player has a new coach, he's going to have to learn the new coach's system.

Look at how the Caps struggled early on with Dale Hunter behind the bench before playing better down the stretch and now against the Bruins.

Thinking too much is a problem. But, it's something that happens a lot when a player changes teams and has a new coach or a team fires their coach and replaces him with someone with a different system.

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