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Didn't I already make this thread? Which goaltender starts game 4?

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Old
04-20-2012, 03:16 PM
  #76
J17 Vs Proclamation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Garrison is a vital part of our special teams.
He's a big cog of the powerplay, but he isn't irreplacable. Jason Garrison isn't going to solve out even strength problems, nor is he going to solve the consistency issues of New Jersey.

Jovo on the other hand has been atrocious. Our worst defender by far.

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04-20-2012, 03:41 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
He's a big cog of the powerplay, but he isn't irreplacable. Jason Garrison isn't going to solve out even strength problems, nor is he going to solve the consistency issues of New Jersey.

Jovo on the other hand has been atrocious. Our worst defender by far.
I was thinking the same thing Erick was last night when watching the team. Our power play has been HUGE in this series and without it, we are going to lose games 4-0. Not to mention, he does play VERY solidly defensively. If Tallon needs a pen to sign JG contract, I'll fly out to give it to him. I have no reason to believe he won't develope more and more as the years go on. This year has been a coming out party for Garry.

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04-20-2012, 04:46 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
He's a big cog of the powerplay, but he isn't irreplacable. Jason Garrison isn't going to solve out even strength problems, nor is he going to solve the consistency issues of New Jersey.

Jovo on the other hand has been atrocious. Our worst defender by far.
No one was insinuating Garrison is the great savior to the playoffs, but his presence was obviously missed out there. And not just on the PP. Garrison is HUGE to this team, I laugh every time someone says otherwise. Also, Ellerby's presence was missed out there seeing as how we only had 5 d-men out there.

I felt we beat ourselves, played as though we could come back from anything. Didn't have the same intensity. We outwork Jersey. That's our game.

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04-21-2012, 12:51 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
He's a big cog of the powerplay, but he isn't irreplacable. Jason Garrison isn't going to solve out even strength problems, nor is he going to solve the consistency issues of New Jersey.

Jovo on the other hand has been atrocious. Our worst defender by far.
Who would replace him? Sheldon Souray? No thanks.

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04-21-2012, 01:50 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
He's a big cog of the powerplay, but he isn't irreplacable. Jason Garrison isn't going to solve out even strength problems, nor is he going to solve the consistency issues of New Jersey.

Jovo on the other hand has been atrocious. Our worst defender by far.
Never said he would solve all our problems.

You mentioned how important special teams has been; Garrison is vital to the special teams.

Put it however you want to put it, Garrison has bailed our PP out this year numerous times. How many times has our PP looked mediocre only to have it succeed due to a blast from the point from Garrison?

His goal in Game 3 gave us complete momentum in that game. Another slapshot that goes right past a goalie without much of a screen in front.

Not to mention that he's also one of the few D-men on the team who's effective on the PK. Basically him and Weaver, that's it.

He's a 1st pairing defenseman. It's a very key injury.

Not trying to make him the scapegoat but Keaton Ellerby's penalty in Game 4 is the one that gives the Devils their lead in that game.

Garrison is our most irreplaceable defenseman as far as I'm concerned.

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04-21-2012, 03:29 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Both his GAA and sv% were top-20 in hockey (and the top-20 includes backups so that's unfair, really).

He only got 22 wins because this team only scored 2.4 goals per game this season, good for 27th out of 30 teams in the NHL.

The only team in the Eastern Conference that scored less goals was the Islanders and the difference was one (we scored 197 to their 196).

How many wins is a goaltender expected to have with that kind of support? 22-16-11 is very solid for a team that doesn't score.
there are 30 teams, right. there are 19 goalies with 30 games or more with a better gaa. there are 14 goalies with with 30+ games with better sv%. that makes him no better than the 15th goalie in the league. in my book there are the top 10 guys and after that there is the middle, and he fits right in there.

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04-21-2012, 03:38 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
there are 30 teams, right. there are 19 goalies with 30 games or more with a better gaa. there are 14 goalies with with 30+ games with better sv%. that makes him no better than the 15th goalie in the league. in my book there are the top 10 guys and after that there is the middle, and he fits right in there.
I'm not sure what your trying to argue. Are you tryin to say a 917% and a 2.46 GAA are bad? Or are you just mad because you think Clemmenson is a better goalie. Either way, your criticizing Theodore's stats like he's an elite goalie. This guy is making 1.5 million man. His numbers are fantastic for a 35 year old at the end of his career. And 22 wins is more than enough for me if we're in a playoff spot at the end of the year.


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04-21-2012, 03:46 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
there are 30 teams, right. there are 19 goalies with 30 games or more with a better gaa. there are 14 goalies with with 30+ games with better sv%. that makes him no better than the 15th goalie in the league. in my book there are the top 10 guys and after that there is the middle, and he fits right in there.
That's a rather terrible assessment of the statistics.

It's a bit unfair to compare a starter's workload to a backup's workload. A lot of the guys in the top list were backups.

Also, they played under different systems.

Goaltending #'s don't always tell the whole story. Theodore was very good for us the majority of this year.

Going by #'s, the St. Louis Blues have the best goaltending of all-time basically; fact of the matter is, it's the teams' system that makes those goalies look a lot better than they actually are.

Theodore plays for a team that is, at best, average defensively + had a lot of trouble scoring. What he was able to do with the workload/pressure this year was great.

I doubt you could realistically name 10 goalies who were better than Jose Theodore this year.

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04-21-2012, 03:47 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
I'm not sure what your trying to argue. Are you tryin to say a 917% and a 2.46 GAA are bad? Or are you just mad because you think Clemmenson is a better goalie. Either way, your criticizing Theodore's stats like he's an elite goalie. This guy is making 1.5 million man. His numbers are fantastic for a 35 year old at the end of his career. And 22 wins is more than enough for me if we're in a playoff spot at the end of the year.
He would've won 30+ for many teams the way he played this year.

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04-21-2012, 03:59 PM
  #85
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I would not want theo to start the majority of my games next yr if we were to progress forward.

Luckily I don expect him to.

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04-21-2012, 04:27 PM
  #86
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well let me start off again by saying i dont think theo is a horrible goalie, rather i think he is a middleish goalie. plus his age makes him by definition a temporary goalie and i think tallon knew that when he signed him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlfan9191 View Post
I'm not sure what your trying to argue. Are you tryin to say a 917% and a 2.46 GAA are bad? Or are you just mad because you think Clemmenson is a better goalie. Either way, your criticizing Theodore's stats like he's an elite goalie. This guy is making 1.5 million man. His numbers are fantastic for a 35 year old at the end of his career. And 22 wins is more than enough for me if we're in a playoff spot at the end of the year.
im saying that those are solid numbers. he's a solid goalie. he aint gonna stone wall anyone, but if you have good defensive coverage and limit the second chances, he will hold most teams on most nights to two goals. he gives you a chance to win. but he doesnt win games. some people will disagree with that, but i will stand by it.

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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
That's a rather terrible assessment of the statistics.

It's a bit unfair to compare a starter's workload to a backup's workload. A lot of the guys in the top list were backups.

Also, they played under different systems.

Goaltending #'s don't always tell the whole story. Theodore was very good for us the majority of this year.

Going by #'s, the St. Louis Blues have the best goaltending of all-time basically; fact of the matter is, it's the teams' system that makes those goalies look a lot better than they actually are.

Theodore plays for a team that is, at best, average defensively + had a lot of trouble scoring. What he was able to do with the workload/pressure this year was great.

I doubt you could realistically name 10 goalies who were better than Jose Theodore this year.
games are games. starter, backup, doesnt matter. for skaters you need to compare minutes, for goalies, a games is a game. you play at least 30 and you deserve to be compared to the rest of the goalies in the league and measured by your stats.

my assessment of theo is that hes pretty good against the first shot, but he is so aggressive that he gets himself in trouble all the time and is much worse than other goalies at making the follow up saves. sometimes he makes a spectacular save, but far too often he ends up on his butt out on the edge of the crease looking back over his shoulder helplessly as the other team scores. weve seen it all year. weve seen it in this series. thats my main gripe against him.

again, he's solid, but he's not owed anything and i dont like the idea of decreasing competition by letting clemmy walk away.

ok, 10 goalies
Jonathan Quick
Pekka Rinne
Henrik Lunqvist
Mike Smith
Jimmy Howard
Miikka Kiprusoff
Tim Thomas
Roberto Luongo
Kari Lehtonen
Ryan Miller
Carey Price
Marc Andre-Fleury
and Jacob Markstrom (lol that one was just for fun)

so i threw in a few extras cause I know your gonna attack a few towards the bottom.

so, to sum it up, theos playing solid, but hes not capable of going into god mode to beat other teams, and each year were gonna have to go through 2-3 teams with a god mode goalie if we want a cup. so unless were gonna become an offensive dynamo some time soon (read dont hold your breath) we need a god mode goalie. so i say hang on to clemmy and make markstrom fight for it. make him beat one of those guys. dont hand him anything. and if he does beat one of them, and we have to send one of them down, great. we can pay there salary in the ahl no problem and if they get picked up on waivers, oh well.

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04-21-2012, 04:40 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
well let me start off again by saying i dont think theo is a horrible goalie, rather i think he is a middleish goalie. plus his age makes him by definition a temporary goalie and i think tallon knew that when he signed him.



im saying that those are solid numbers. he's a solid goalie. he aint gonna stone wall anyone, but if you have good defensive coverage and limit the second chances, he will hold most teams on most nights to two goals. he gives you a chance to win. but he doesnt win games. some people will disagree with that, but i will stand by it.



games are games. starter, backup, doesnt matter. for skaters you need to compare minutes, for goalies, a games is a game. you play at least 30 and you deserve to be compared to the rest of the goalies in the league and measured by your stats.

my assessment of theo is that hes pretty good against the first shot, but he is so aggressive that he gets himself in trouble all the time and is much worse than other goalies at making the follow up saves. sometimes he makes a spectacular save, but far too often he ends up on his butt out on the edge of the crease looking back over his shoulder helplessly as the other team scores. weve seen it all year. weve seen it in this series. thats my main gripe against him.

again, he's solid, but he's not owed anything and i dont like the idea of decreasing competition by letting clemmy walk away.

ok, 10 goalies
Jonathan Quick
Pekka Rinne
Henrik Lunqvist
Mike Smith
Jimmy Howard
Miikka Kiprusoff
Tim Thomas
Roberto Luongo
Kari Lehtonen
Ryan Miller
Carey Price
Marc Andre-Fleury
and Jacob Markstrom (lol that one was just for fun)

so i threw in a few extras cause I know your gonna attack a few towards the bottom.

so, to sum it up, theos playing solid, but hes not capable of going into god mode to beat other teams, and each year were gonna have to go through 2-3 teams with a god mode goalie if we want a cup. so unless were gonna become an offensive dynamo some time soon (read dont hold your breath) we need a god mode goalie. so i say hang on to clemmy and make markstrom fight for it. make him beat one of those guys. dont hand him anything. and if he does beat one of them, and we have to send one of them down, great. we can pay there salary in the ahl no problem and if they get picked up on waivers, oh well.

I disagree with the "games are games" thing.
Backups get smaller sample sizes.

A backup has a bad game and it goes right back to the starter. A starter has a bad game and...he's still the starter.

It's just not the same. A starter plays through his slumps. Backups basically only get prolonged stretches when they're hot and just about any goalie can have a hot stretch.

Stats are more impressive the more games you play.

As for the list, you're contradicting yourself a bit.

If you're going just by GAA and sv% this year, Theo's were slightly better than Miller's. Basically the same as Price.

Statistically speaking THIS YEAR, Theo's #'s compare to most of those guys on that list. Just check them out.

And again, basically all of those guys (with the exception of Quick) got more goal-scoring support than Theodore.

To the initial context of the conversation, the only way Clemmensen is back next year is if Markstrom needs another year of development. Theodore>Clemmer and he's under contract.

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04-21-2012, 05:06 PM
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I disagree with the "games are games" thing.
Backups get smaller sample sizes.

A backup has a bad game and it goes right back to the starter. A starter has a bad game and...he's still the starter.

It's just not the same. A starter plays through his slumps. Backups basically only get prolonged stretches when they're hot and just about any goalie can have a hot stretch.

Stats are more impressive the more games you play.

As for the list, you're contradicting yourself a bit.

If you're going just by GAA and sv% this year, Theo's were slightly better than Miller's. Basically the same as Price.

Statistically speaking THIS YEAR, Theo's #'s compare to most of those guys on that list. Just check them out.

And again, basically all of those guys (with the exception of Quick) got more goal-scoring support than Theodore.

To the initial context of the conversation, the only way Clemmensen is back next year is if Markstrom needs another year of development. Theodore>Clemmer and he's under contract.
i dont think i contradicted myself, i just considered the other factors that ive analyzed. age and ability to stone another team. i'll admit that when you compare theo to numbers 8,9,10, etc on a list of the best goalies, theos numbers become comparable. if theo was 25 and coming into his prime, id say all hail theo (as long as we can get a goalie coach who can fix the problems i pointed out above). but hes 35 and slowing down. so we can expect worse play from him in each successive year. and then when you add in that theo cant imo stone a team, yet were gonna play plenty of teams in the playoffs that have goalies who will do it to us, it leads to the conclusion that theo is a good short term solution, but isnt owed anything, hasnt won anything, and competition should be fostered at the goalie position.

and btw i disagree with you in that i think our defense have made theos numbers better, rather than theo having made our defenses numbers better. but, egg/chicken, whatever, ya know.

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04-21-2012, 08:26 PM
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theo not really supporting my argument today

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04-21-2012, 08:53 PM
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How about Cleommore? Haha

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04-21-2012, 10:02 PM
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I'm glad Dineen was smart enough to go back to Theodore! One more Panthers, you can do it!

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04-22-2012, 02:14 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Panther View Post
well let me start off again by saying i dont think theo is a horrible goalie, rather i think he is a middleish goalie. plus his age makes him by definition a temporary goalie and i think tallon knew that when he signed him.



im saying that those are solid numbers. he's a solid goalie. he aint gonna stone wall anyone, but if you have good defensive coverage and limit the second chances, he will hold most teams on most nights to two goals. he gives you a chance to win. but he doesnt win games. some people will disagree with that, but i will stand by it.



games are games. starter, backup, doesnt matter. for skaters you need to compare minutes, for goalies, a games is a game. you play at least 30 and you deserve to be compared to the rest of the goalies in the league and measured by your stats.

my assessment of theo is that hes pretty good against the first shot, but he is so aggressive that he gets himself in trouble all the time and is much worse than other goalies at making the follow up saves. sometimes he makes a spectacular save, but far too often he ends up on his butt out on the edge of the crease looking back over his shoulder helplessly as the other team scores. weve seen it all year. weve seen it in this series. thats my main gripe against him.

again, he's solid, but he's not owed anything and i dont like the idea of decreasing competition by letting clemmy walk away.

ok, 10 goalies
Jonathan Quick
Pekka Rinne
Henrik Lunqvist
Mike Smith
Jimmy Howard
Miikka Kiprusoff
Tim Thomas
Roberto Luongo
Kari Lehtonen
Ryan Miller
Carey Price
Marc Andre-Fleury
and Jacob Markstrom (lol that one was just for fun)

so i threw in a few extras cause I know your gonna attack a few towards the bottom.

so, to sum it up, theos playing solid, but hes not capable of going into god mode to beat other teams, and each year were gonna have to go through 2-3 teams with a god mode goalie if we want a cup. so unless were gonna become an offensive dynamo some time soon (read dont hold your breath) we need a god mode goalie. so i say hang on to clemmy and make markstrom fight for it. make him beat one of those guys. dont hand him anything. and if he does beat one of them, and we have to send one of them down, great. we can pay there salary in the ahl no problem and if they get picked up on waivers, oh well.
You just named the best goalies in the league. Nobody even thought Jose could be a number 1 in this league anymore. I say finishing #13 on your list is pretty darn good. Although you forgot Halak, Elliott, Schneider, and Thomas. Plus, just because guys like Carey Price and Kiprusoff are better goalies doesn't mean they had better seasons.


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04-22-2012, 07:52 PM
  #93
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as to the first two points, all of the cap numbers are so low that if you sent clemmy or theo down it wouldnt be much of a difference from what theyre paying marky mark. if someone picks up clemmy or theo then its problem solved, right.

as for bernier, hes a backup to quick, there is no shame in that. all but 2-3 goaltenders in the league would be backing him up. and bernier has been equally or higher regarded as a prospect as compared to markstrom. hes also performed pretty well in the nhl. having two top notch goalie prospects doesnt solve the goaltending problem immediately, but it makes it almost certain that between the two of them we will end up with a top tier goalie. who it ends up being, i could care less, i just want to know that we have the goalie advantage against all but a handful of teams in the league.
It's over a million dollars difference. markstrom is on a two-way contract, in the AHL he makes less than 100K. If he plays in the NHL for a full year, he makes 1.3M. Since when did we become the Leafs? That's a lot of money. Clem's had a great season but I doubt he's going to repeat this performance next season. Markstrom is ready for the NHL, he should give comparable goaltending to Clem if not better, and he's only going to get better.

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