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Old
04-17-2012, 06:37 PM
  #101
newfr4u
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Boyle's program is not a novice lifting program. it is a mobility program that incorporates single-leg strength. can be combined with other barbell training. it does not achieve strength gains like SS. check.
Wendler's 531 program is not a novice lifting program, but one that intentionally slows down your progress compared to SS. some think it prolongs your linear gains stage. i don't know. check.
Hatch squat program is not a novice lifting program, and also says nothing about any other lifts. check.
other programs that are not novice programs: westside, texas method, greyskull.

can a novice do those programs? yes. will a novice achieve gains faster than SS? hell, no.

SS does not prevent you from playing sports. check.
SS does not prevent you from adding assistance exercises. check.
Squatting 3x a week does not prevent you from adding assistance exercises, just because you say it does. check.
GOMAD does not prevent you from playing sports. check.

raw strength is a far more important factor in preventing injury in novices, than incorporation of single leg movements. i don't have a link, but wendler himself says that every time he talks about his motorcycle accident. once a strength reaches non-embarrassing level, sure, single-leg stuff will help. i can buy that.

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Addressing movement issues It isn't as simple as lacrosse ball rolling and the bottom squat drill. It is about relearning how to activate the core to maintain lumbar position, among other things.
what do you think lacrosse ball rolling and stretching does?

Quote:
Notice how my program addresses the lack of progressive loading of functional movements (my issue with single leg stuff) by incorporating a basic 5/3/1. Ding Ding Ding. Linear progression that does not limit progress in anyway? Check.
in fact it purposefully limits progression, even though it is still linear. this is important once you reach intermediate and advanced programming.

what purpose is it to have LBBS and FS on the same day, rather than do only LBBS at higher weight? there's virtually no benefits to this for a novice. learning two very different squat techniques over one is MUCH more taxing to your CNS. provided that in your program you only have one squat day a week, i think it's unnecessarily slowing down how much weight you can put on the bar. much like lifting to gain muscle without a caloric surplus.

Quote:
Provide some source of evidence outside of work by Rippetoe. When you criticize me for including power-cleans and deadlifts on the same day, quote someone of value. When you balk at two squat variations a day, again, post some evidence - OUTSIDE OF THE SINGLE SOURCE OF STARTING STRENGTH/PRACTICAL PROGRAMMING.
what do you have against Rippetoe as a source? the reason he gives to separating deadlifts and cleans is because the both work hip extension, but one is explosive, while the other is not. if you were to do them on the same day, sure do the cleans first. but it's probably better to separate them for a novice. i think a novice would be able to move more weight on both cleans and deadlifts if there was a rest day in-between.

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Finally, training yourself is different than training someone else whose goals may differ from yours. I can't stress this enough. It is a skill to be learnt.
yes. the goal of starting strength is the near-optimal (fastest) way of getting a novice through beginning linear gains, which in turn makes your muscles bigger and automatically more athletic. nothing else. any weight goals you may have, you will have to resolve on your own.

most of the advice you give is solid by itself. i certainly can't fault a program for having front-squats in it. but it seems that you take rather random pieces of 4-5 different programs and combine them to make it (1) higher volume per day, (2) fewer squat days per week, and (3) less weight. that runs counter to strength gains, and precisely why SS should work for a novice.

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04-17-2012, 06:40 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
So you're saying Starting Strength would be a poor platform for sports athletes, right? I'd agree. It's pretty much just a platform for adding a lot of mass, whether that's a good or bad thing.

I would add it's a great companion guide for lift technique, especially the 3rd edition.
i am all but done with this thread. just don't characterize ss as poor for athletes. it is the exact opposite. is it readily combine-able with cutting fat or running marathons or playing a full season of hockey. well, no. all of those things affect your recovery and will slow down your progress. and that is NO DIFFERENT from any other program.

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04-17-2012, 09:36 PM
  #103
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Boyle's program is not a novice lifting program. it is a mobility program that incorporates single-leg strength. can be combined with other barbell training. it does not achieve strength gains like SS. check.
No, the only group of people Boyle does not start out with single leg movements are the obese population:

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Last but, certainly not least, single leg work. Again a basic building block of our programs fails the common sense test. The first thing an obese client needs to do is learn to squat on two legs and, handle his or her bodyweight. I want to throw myself out the window when I see the things they do on The Biggest Loser. I'm worried about doing a proper squat and they have these people running sprints and doing box jumps.
Notice how he calls single leg work a basic building block of his program? Notice how he starts obese people off WITH BODYWEIGHT and not the barbell? This is the only mention I know of where Boyle neglects to incorporate single leg movements.

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Wendler's 531 program is not a novice lifting program, but one that intentionally slows down your progress compared to SS.
Wendler on the 5/3/1 for the beginner:

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Generally, I tell everyone to just do the program as is, regardless of training age.
He continues:

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Of course, if you’re a trainer and are using the program with a novice athlete or someone new to training, simply use your experience to make whatever changes are required – though there shouldn’t be many.
How he sets up 5/3/1 for a beginner

Quote:
Monday

Squat – 5/3/1 sets/reps
Bench – 55%x5, 65×5%, 75%x5
Assistance work

Wednesday

Deadlift – 5/3/1 sets/reps
Press – 5/3/1 sets/reps
Assistance work

Friday

Bench – 5/3/1 sets/reps
Squat – 55%x5, 65%x5, 75%x5
Assistance work
So you are disagreeing with Jim Wendler on how his own programming should be used? I have already shown how well-respected coaches use all of these systems with novice athletes. The best example would be Rudy Neilson who combined the hatch squat program with the conjugate method and came up with a pretty amazing set of programming for the novice to the advanced lifter. He said himself that it works with everyone who can do the movements and uses it at his own crossfit gym with the general populus.

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can a novice do those programs? yes. will a novice achieve gains faster than SS? hell, no.
Subjective. But the "novices" I have worked with have made better gains on some version of 5/3/1 over a 3 - 6 month period. More importantly, better performance on the field/ice/whatever. The only place I see SS praised these days is the internet. 5/3/1 is also not a be all and end all, but I find it more flexible.

Quote:
SS does not prevent you from playing sports. check.
SS does not prevent you from adding assistance exercises. check.
Squatting 3x a week does not prevent you from adding assistance exercises, just because you say it does. check.
GOMAD does not prevent you from playing sports. check.
I just re-skimmed through SS second edition and Practical Programming. No mention of single leg exercises, but I did get some snippets indicating the importance of the squat. This is one of many quotes. Anyone who has read Rippetoe knows he loves squats.

Quote:
Exercises should be chosen to accomplish the program's specified goal in
the most efficient manner possible. This means large-scale, multi-joint exercises involving large muscle masses working in a coordinated manner.
Here is a brief video of Mike Boyle explaining why the squat is not awesome. While I am not as hardliner as he is, I do agree with the gist of his argument. More important, notice how he is talking about young/novice athletes new/newer to weight lifting.



So. For athletes. You have one of the top performance coaches in the nation talking about why the back squat (the basis of starting strength) should NOT BE used for beginner athletes. So yes, I have an issue with three back squat sessions a week.

Quote:
raw strength is a far more important factor in preventing injury in novices, than incorporation of single leg movements. i don't have a link, but wendler himself says that every time he talks about his motorcycle accident. once a strength reaches non-embarrassing level, sure, single-leg stuff will help. i can buy that.
Ripptoe's work: No mention of single leg exercises, squat three times a week.
Boyle: The novice athlete should avoid backsquats entirely and focus on single leg movements and mobility.

I think I am going to lean towards with the guy who has worked extensively with college athletes and currently works with professional athletes, the guy whose job is injury prevention and performance, the guy who gets fired if too many man games are lost.

I never said SS would prevent you from playing sports. I said it wasn't the most effective thing ANYONE could do for sports performance.

Oh I also found this gym regarding female strength training that actually contradicts some of what you said earlier:

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Women, younger and older trainees, and those with technique problems might only make 5 lbs. every other workout, or might need to introduce smaller plates earlier in the progression
Seems like your statement of "30 pounds on the DL should be at most 3 weeks gains" for a female may not gel with what is in the second edition of Starting Strength. 5 pounds a week on the deadlift would be what, 15 pounds?

Quote:
what do you think lacrosse ball rolling and stretching does?
Not nearly as effective as a complete program for mobility. I really like Kelly Starrett for anything mobility related.

Here is a video I really like for the hip problems most people have with the squat:



Quote:
in fact it purposefully limits progression, even though it is still linear. this is important once you reach intermediate and advanced programming.
Important according to whom? For me, proper movement, core engagement, and full body mobility is infinitely more important than maximal strength. At any level. This goes against Rippetoe's philosophy but is more akin to what Matt Nichols, Gary Roberts, Mike Boyle, and so forth - current top tier conditioning specialists preach.

Quote:
what purpose is it to have LBBS and FS on the same day, rather than do only LBBS at higher weight? there's virtually no benefits to this for a novice. learning two very different squat techniques over one is MUCH more taxing to your CNS. provided that in your program you only have one squat day a week, i think it's unnecessarily slowing down how much weight you can put on the bar. much like lifting to gain muscle without a caloric surplus.
I include a LBBS for skeletal loading. I don't like the how most athletes move with the HBBS. I don't think it is something that should be maintained, but I do agree with Rippetoe's (and others) assessment of the squat for hormonal and other physiological reasons.

The front squat, to me, is a perfect accessory to this for its ability to tax the anterior chain. Notice how it is done lighter. If I have the athlete with me and can watch form, I normally make them do the 5 sets every minute on the minute. It is more taxing with less weight. My goal is to keep tonnage down. Doing less work sets of LBBS (and, if you notice, fewer deadlifts) helps with this. If this is still much total tonnage (and the person is able to preform them) I often move to overhead squats.

In most situations, I wouldn't have someone do a high bar back squat and front squat on the same day. I also change the "primary" lift every 3 cycles and the secondary lifts as needed.

What works for one person, may not work for everyone. Finding the right mix of exercises is key. Those ones are normally good starts.

Quote:
what do you have against Rippetoe as a source? the reason he gives to separating deadlifts and cleans is because the both work hip extension, but one is explosive, while the other is not. if you were to do them on the same day, sure do the cleans first. but it's probably better to separate them for a novice. i think a novice would be able to move more weight on both cleans and deadlifts if there was a rest day in-between.
I love him as a source for coaching individual movements but think his programming philosophy in terms of athletic performance is outdated. As I have argued, there are varying degrees of opposition to the squat. Yet, SS recommends doing it 3x a week. Find someone who works with all levels of athlete who supports a Squat3x a week 5x3 program.

Why is it better to separate them? Why should the goal for both the deadlift AND the clean be to move as much weight as possible? What about moving it dynamically - as explosively as possible?

Quote:
yes. the goal of starting strength is the near-optimal (fastest) way of getting a novice through beginning linear gains, which in turn makes your muscles bigger and automatically more athletic. nothing else. any weight goals you may have, you will have to resolve on your own.
That SHOULD NOT be the goal of the athlete. The first thing an athlete should do is ensure they are moving properly. Then they should focus on effective and sustainable strength increases while injuring injury prevention.

Quote:
most of the advice you give is solid by itself. i certainly can't fault a program for having front-squats in it. but it seems that you take rather random pieces of 4-5 different programs and combine them to make it (1) higher volume per day, (2) fewer squat days per week, and (3) less weight. that runs counter to strength gains, and precisely why SS should work for a novice.
Ya. I took WHAT WORKED from other people and combined it in this one instance to provide a general template/example. Everyone is different, everyone moves different and everyone needs an individually tailored program. (I include warmup AND conditioning in this - the two most customizable and important aspects).

High volume but less weight moved = better results for most people over a 6 month off season and fewer injuries in season.

Quote:
i am all but done with this thread. just don't characterize ss as poor for athletes. it is the exact opposite. is it readily combine-able with cutting fat or running marathons or playing a full season of hockey. well, no. all of those things affect your recovery and will slow down your progress. and that is NO DIFFERENT from any other program.
It is poor for athletes. The only "guru" I have seen advocate it for performance athletes in the last ten years is Rippetoe. Others have moved on. Rippetoe believes in maximal strength as the basis. I used to agree to this, before it didn't work out for me. I then became more knowledgeable. SS is great for someone who wants to add bulk/strength BUT for the athlete, or aspiring athlete, there are some great "novice" programs out there that better align with their goals.

Your belief = maximal strength = most important = Rippetoe
My Belief = Strength gains need to be balanced throughout the body in order to prevent injury.

I would a like to see reputable source who currently works with athletes who believes that SS is "the near-optimal (fastest) way of getting a novice through beginning linear gains, which in turn makes your muscles bigger and automatically more athletic."

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04-18-2012, 10:22 AM
  #104
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I'd appreciate you sticking around New, learned quite a bit and it's good to have a couple guys who know what they're talking about bouncing ideas around.

I should have said, in my opinion, Starting Strength would be a poor workout program for a high-level athlete traning for a specific sport. It's a beginner's strength program, just like it says it is.

I think it's a perfect program for the prototypical "skinny kid" who desperately needs to add weight and strength. This would be your 16, 17, 18 year old hockey player in the summer. The program has you doing 200 reps of squats and 100 reps of the other lifts every two weeks. So you learn the lifts and commit them to muscle memory. SS + GOMAD and you pack on 30 pounds in 2-3 months and double your lifts. From there you'd have to start the late-summer conditioning and clean up the diet and you'll likely end up with 15+ pounds of muscle and a hell of a lot more strength (not just in terms of raw lifts and your main muscles, but core strength, stabilizers, etc).

Wendler's 5/3/1 seems more like an intermediate program to me, once you've learned the lifts and achieved some strength, you cycle deloading with progressive resistance. When you hit that level of strength, you can't squat 3x a week and at those weights you're not knocking out sets quickly, you need quite a bit of rest. The prescription for the accessory exercises on those days makes sense, but only for a powerlifter or serious athlete. The guys in the gym 4-5 days a week on up. They need to hit the muscles from a variety of angles to build up the strength to increase the lifts. That's when it gets into advanced territory.

Like I said, I'm doing SS and having great success adding strength and learning the lifts. And having some fun too (less fun as the weights get harder of course). I don't think I have the patience, time, or energy to move into a 5/3/1 system or working out 3x a week long term. In a few months, I'll be moving, likely into a place where I won't be able to bring my squat rack and bench, and won't have the time to work out 3x a week. That's why I'm trying to build up some strength now (not unreal amounts), so I can try and maintain it somewhat.

So at that time, I'll have to by necessity come up with a new workout that will be more dumbbell and bodyweight based, and single-leg stuff would make sense. I'll follow up on some of those recommendations you made and probably hit you up with some questions.

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04-18-2012, 12:07 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I'd appreciate you sticking around New, learned quite a bit and it's good to have a couple guys who know what they're talking about bouncing ideas around.

I should have said, in my opinion, Starting Strength would be a poor workout program for a high-level athlete traning for a specific sport. It's a beginner's strength program, just like it says it is.

I think it's a perfect program for the prototypical "skinny kid" who desperately needs to add weight and strength. This would be your 16, 17, 18 year old hockey player in the summer. The program has you doing 200 reps of squats and 100 reps of the other lifts every two weeks. So you learn the lifts and commit them to muscle memory. SS + GOMAD and you pack on 30 pounds in 2-3 months and double your lifts. From there you'd have to start the late-summer conditioning and clean up the diet and you'll likely end up with 15+ pounds of muscle and a hell of a lot more strength (not just in terms of raw lifts and your main muscles, but core strength, stabilizers, etc).

Wendler's 5/3/1 seems more like an intermediate program to me, once you've learned the lifts and achieved some strength, you cycle deloading with progressive resistance. When you hit that level of strength, you can't squat 3x a week and at those weights you're not knocking out sets quickly, you need quite a bit of rest. The prescription for the accessory exercises on those days makes sense, but only for a powerlifter or serious athlete. The guys in the gym 4-5 days a week on up. They need to hit the muscles from a variety of angles to build up the strength to increase the lifts. That's when it gets into advanced territory.

Like I said, I'm doing SS and having great success adding strength and learning the lifts. And having some fun too (less fun as the weights get harder of course). I don't think I have the patience, time, or energy to move into a 5/3/1 system or working out 3x a week long term. In a few months, I'll be moving, likely into a place where I won't be able to bring my squat rack and bench, and won't have the time to work out 3x a week. That's why I'm trying to build up some strength now (not unreal amounts), so I can try and maintain it somewhat.

So at that time, I'll have to by necessity come up with a new workout that will be more dumbbell and bodyweight based, and single-leg stuff would make sense. I'll follow up on some of those recommendations you made and probably hit you up with some questions.
I would watch the Boyle video on the squat. He specifically says that young athletes should not be squatting. While I don't go as far as to agree that banning the movement entirely is necessary, his argument certainly is eye-opening.

I am actually weaker now in the deadlift and low back back squat (bench and high bar are higher) then when I injured myself doing SS/athletics. However, my core is much stronger. I was all legs, and was going through the movements without properly utilizing my core. This is possible for some on the back squat (I was a goalie in my youth and have no mobility issues and can go ass to grass without thinking about it) and way too common on the dead lift. Especially for those working out alone. You don't think your back is rounding or your lumbar curve is failing, but it might be. The best way to prevent this is through a strong core. If you don't do it naturally engage it, it is something that needs to be taught. I like front squats and single leg stuff for this. Along with gymnastics movements (planks, hollow holds, headstand holds, ring holds, jack knives, and so forth). I found the hollow hold and handstand pushups really helped me learn to lock my core for the deadlift.

I find that 5/3/1 takes less time than SS. It can also easily be combined into a 2x a week template. If you find yourself only able to get to the gym twice a week, I strongly recommend the e-book that breaks down how to use it twice a week. There are likely better options than either for the 2x a week athlete, but they would be assessed on a case by case basis.

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04-18-2012, 12:28 PM
  #106
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Does Boyle's Functional Training for Sports have a hockey workout? Or is there a better hockey specific workout book?

Watching his video, I agree at some point the squat becomes a low back exercise, but I'd want to learn more benefits of the single-leg squat. And again, is that for athletes constantly pushing themselves to be better/faster/stronger or for your average guy who wants to get (and stay) in shape?

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04-18-2012, 12:47 PM
  #107
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wow at that wall of text.

BaconStrips,

Mike Boyle never says that two-legged work ISN"T a basic building block of his program. he endorses both. he has some problems with the squat (which to me are not well thought-out). By doing single-leg, he has moved the weakest link of the posterior chain from the low back to the one leg, and started doing more reps at lower weight. If low back is the weak link, you should probably try to train it to take higher loads, not lower loads.

you know why he recommends obese people to do two-legged squats? because those are easier and more mechanically efficient!!! they would be easier for a non-obese person too, and you can nail the form and load it with weight better!

i agree that intermediate and advanced program CAN be done by a beginner. but they are not in any way more optimal for novies than doing starting strength based on metrics like the rate of your strength gains, adjusted for your amount of calories. once your starting strength gains slow, you SHOULD move to those intermediate programs.

SS also doesn't advocate deadlifting 3 times a week. we DL every other workout, which is either once or twice a week depending on the week. So a 30-lbs gain is 6 DL workouts at 5-lb per workout, or 11-12 total workouts, and at 3 workouts per week, that's 4 weeks. it is very doable.

Look at Kelly's mobilitywod FAQ. (a blog i follow religiously btw). notice how he says that lacrosse balls among the bare minimum of equipment you need to start his program. He endorses it, he does it, he does not consider it any less important than a full mobility program. He in fact includes ball rolling and foam rolling in a full mobility program.

i believe SMR with a lacrosse ball and some mobility work, in addition to learning the lifts and/or movements like skating, is sufficient to ensure an athlete is moving properly. many athletes have survived doing a lot less. not many have survived without gaining at least non-embarrassing levels of strength. that alone tells me that strength is a bigger factor in being prepared for athletics.

Jarick,

it is completely upto you when you want to stop starting strength and start something intermediate. if you find that you skate too much and eat too little to make gains on SS, go ahead and try something intermediate. but generally, guys your size can safely progress until they are at least 180-190. ever see those heavier fast guys on the ice? sure, the weight slows them down a little, but they more than make up for it with their added strength.

yes, starting strength is not appropriate for people who are past novice gains. Most kids, no matter their performance level, haven't exhausted those gains, so it makes sense they simply do that, and try to eat as much as they can while they can get away with that. their bodies grow pretty damn naturally.


i am now officially out of this thread.

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04-18-2012, 01:00 PM
  #108
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I'm at 175 squat now, up from 135 earlier in the month, and starting at 95 at the start of the year. I'm probably going to stay for about another 4-6 weeks until I can hit ~225x5. That seems to be when most guys stall and/or de-load initially.

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04-18-2012, 02:46 PM
  #109
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Funny thing watching the Mike Boyle video:

"My best hockey players have the worst aerobic conditioning"

That's me

We have two competitive triathletes on the team who can skate for 90 minutes and never lose their breath but can't compete with me for strength and speed.

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04-18-2012, 03:51 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
wow at that wall of text.

BaconStrips,

Mike Boyle never says that two-legged work ISN"T a basic building block of his program. he endorses both. he has some problems with the squat (which to me are not well thought-out). By doing single-leg, he has moved the weakest link of the posterior chain from the low back to the one leg, and started doing more reps at lower weight. If low back is the weak link, you should probably try to train it to take higher loads, not lower loads.

you know why he recommends obese people to do two-legged squats? because those are easier and more mechanically efficient!!! they would be easier for a non-obese person too, and you can nail the form and load it with weight better!
......

Mike Boyle stated the "back squat is dead." It was kinda big deal. I really don't think he endorses it as a basic building block of his program.

You didn't address anything I said. At all. You completely glossed over the point of my argument and you are wrong about Boyle. Mike Boyle famously (or infamously) stated the "squat is dead." Google Mike Boyle Squat is Dead. Big bruhahah. Or, watch the video. With the sound on.

For obese people, he said BODYWEIGHT 2 legged squat. The next progression is single leg stuff with bodyweight. Bodyweight squats and barbell squats are two different movements. I think 70s big talks about this, but I am not going to bother to look it up since you won't read it anyways (just claim to read it but not actually comprehend the point of it).

I am going to make this very simple:

Starting Strength = Building maximal strength which the programs creator believes the foundation of athletic development.

Almost everyone else who trains performance athletes: Injury prevention, mobility, core strength, and so forth need to be taken in concert with strength. These coaches do not believe the back squat (the foundation of SS) is necessary for this. Thus, their begginer programs do not include a backsquat. Many of these coaches have taken athletes from highschool/college to the pros. Who is the last athlete Rippetoe has worked with?

Quote:
Look at Kelly's mobilitywod FAQ. (a blog i follow religiously btw). notice how he says that lacrosse balls among the bare minimum of equipment you need to start his program. He endorses it, he does it, he does not consider it any less important than a full mobility program. He in fact includes ball rolling and foam rolling in a full mobility program.

i believe SMR with a lacrosse ball and some mobility work, in addition to learning the lifts and/or movements like skating, is sufficient to ensure an athlete is moving properly. many athletes have survived doing a lot less. not many have survived without gaining at least non-embarrassing levels of strength. that alone tells me that strength is a bigger factor in being prepared for athletics.
Bare minimum is in bold. You initially said you would have someone who couldn't squat to depth but was above average in strength use a lacrosse ball for a week. Seems like that is all you prescribe? It is much more complicated then that, as anyone who follows the FMS stuff or MobilityWod knows. FMS programs are designed to take someone from poor to adequate to optimal movement. They last longer than a week.

Quote:
yes, starting strength is not appropriate for people who are past novice gains. Most kids, no matter their performance level, haven't exhausted those gains, so it makes sense they simply do that, and try to eat as much as they can while they can get away with that. their bodies grow pretty damn naturally.
Mike Boyle is saying these kids SHOULD NOT BE BACKSQUATTING. While I think that is extreme, I believe that their exposure should be limited. Do you have any reputable evidence to the contrary? While many people initially reacted poorly to Boyle's "Squat is Dead" stance, many people (like me) agreed with the point he was making. Many of these people train high level athletes others work with college athletes.

Here I will find a counter-point for you. This response by Jason Ferrugia is pretty spot on.

Quote:
What about the squat not maximally overloading the legs? Invalid argument in my opinion. Squats load the legs while also training the entire abdominal/lower back region simultaneously. This builds real world, “functional” strength. You can’t get the same effect from pistols and split squats.

Furthermore, most single leg work is dangerous when done for low reps and will place far greater stress on your knees than the back squat will. A balls out, heavy triple on split squats is a hip flexor tear waiting to happen. A double on a step up seems a little risky to me. So out goes CNS stimulation and maximal strength work.

The back squat transfers greatly to running speed and jumping ability as has been demonstrated many times before. It trains the core more effectively than almost anything else, provides spinal loading and enhances your overall strength from head to toe. A step up doesn’t do that.

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04-18-2012, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Does Boyle's Functional Training for Sports have a hockey workout? Or is there a better hockey specific workout book?

Watching his video, I agree at some point the squat becomes a low back exercise, but I'd want to learn more benefits of the single-leg squat. And again, is that for athletes constantly pushing themselves to be better/faster/stronger or for your average guy who wants to get (and stay) in shape?
He doesn't really believe much in sport specific workouts, but before he (recently) moved on to the Boston Red Sox, he was a strength and conditioning coach with the Boston College Hockey team.

Here is his view of sport specific training:


Quote:
This is the question that comes up all the time. Sounds like a great set up for a joke .

"A parent walks into a strength and conditioning facility and says…."

Well in many ways, it is a joke. On us.

Parents consistently walk into a facility and say "my son ( or daughter) plays ___________ can you design a program for ______________?"

You fill in the blank based on your area. The sport doesn't matter because the answer is always the same.

When dealing with parents I like to use logic. My first question is always something like "does a fast baseball player look any different than a fast soccer player"? Most parents will answer no. Then I say "OK, our number one goal will be to increase speed".
Quote:
Watching his video, I agree at some point the squat becomes a low back exercise, but I'd want to learn more benefits of the single-leg squat. And again, is that for athletes constantly pushing themselves to be better/faster/stronger or for your average guy who wants to get (and stay) in shape?
I would do some combination of back squat / front squat. I have recently played around with not deadlifting and just using squat variations. I love deadlifting though, so it didnt last long. You could stay with SS until you stall and then, if you really like the rep scheme, switch to front squats where you would normally back squat and low back back squats where you would normally deadlift (getting back to your initial question, this would be a great place to add trap bar deadlifts instead). However, if you do this, I recommend you build your conditioning around single leg movements and basic plyometrics. This is where "crossfit" style training comes in handy.

5 rounds/sets/whatever
12 single leg squats (each side)
24 alternating lateral jumps (Total so 12 each leg)
Run 400m (or less, depending on your conditioning)
Rest 1 minute (somedays you wouldn't include rest, other days it would be longer).

I would also make sure your warmup routine includes 1 dynamic stretch, 1 static stretch and some ab stuff. To make it fun, you could do it for time as well:

Run for 10-15 minutes or skip 8-12 minutes (less if you get super warm skipping) then blast through something like:

5 times through of
30 second plank or hollow hold
broad jumps or high box jumps
Quad or hamstring stretch

Thus, you continue with starting strength but are doing injury prevention before and after. More importantly, either workout can be modified so it can be done without workout equipment. You can do your conditioning in 20 minutes while waiting for a roast to cook.

Edit: I don't think you need to worry about aggressive pursuing a progressive plyometric program, just don't start out doing depth jumps or something crazy. Keep it to 2-3 times a week initially and focus on simple exercises. You can always sub in a core exercise for plyometrics. As you gain confidence, start slowly adding more.

Some basic movements I like:
Alternating Lunge Jumps
Skipping (try and master the "double under" once you have a rope)
Static Lunge Jumps
Squat Jumps
Controlled Box Jumps
Tuck Jumps
Laundry Jumps

More advanced things include
Hurdles
Depth Jumps

Don't neglect the upper body either, plyo pushups are pretty much the bees knees. You can also build a medicine ball out of an old basketball.


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04-18-2012, 04:20 PM
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Jarick
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Interesting, I'll bookmark that for later. I read through a lot of his pieces on whatever his hockey website is and found a few that had some circuits on them.

So in your view, if you had to design a general conditioning program for a recreational athlete, would you switch between traditional weightlifting and unilateral every few months? Or try and work the two together (say same workout or alternating workouts)?

I've always had issues trying to find an in-season workout program and that's something I'm after. Not needing a squat rack would be a plus considering I might be in an apartment for a couple years until I can find a house. Single-leg dumbbell work, front squat cleans, deadlifts, trap bar, that kind of stuff. Putting it all together is just a mental nightmare though.

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04-18-2012, 05:03 PM
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Interesting, I'll bookmark that for later. I read through a lot of his pieces on whatever his hockey website is and found a few that had some circuits on them.

So in your view, if you had to design a general conditioning program for a recreational athlete, would you switch between traditional weightlifting and unilateral every few months? Or try and work the two together (say same workout or alternating workouts)?

I've always had issues trying to find an in-season workout program and that's something I'm after. Not needing a squat rack would be a plus considering I might be in an apartment for a couple years until I can find a house. Single-leg dumbbell work, front squat cleans, deadlifts, trap bar, that kind of stuff. Putting it all together is just a mental nightmare though.
You can use the SS rep scheme with any exercises. Some might not agree, but it will work. Obviously some exercises will stall before others. I think the trap bar is a great idea if you don't have access to a rack. Despite what some people say, you can use barbell movements for conditioning. Crossfit workouts are great for this. With some modifications, it makes an excellent conditioning program in itself. For instance, Crossfit Football is pretty decent. It is a combination of Rippetoe inspired strength program combined with conditioning workouts.

What you use entirely depends on circumstance. Optimally, it would be something like what I posted earlier with 3-5 conditioning segments. Obviously, that doesnt work for everyone.

Here is a complete week you can do without a squat rack:

Warmup:
10-15 minutes jogging
3 rounds
30 second plank hold
10 broad jumps
30 second hollow hold
10 spider lunges
Then
Static Stretching for the quad/chest

Strength A
Squat Clean 3by5 (Since you wont be able to front squat what you can't clean anyways. Work on your front squat before you have to get rid of your rack)
Bench press 3by5
Good Morning 3 by 8

Conditioning:
5 rounds:
8 single leg squats (each leg)
24 laundry jumps (each contact counts as a rep)
72 single skips

Day 2:
Warmup
8-12 minutes progressively faster skipping
Tabata Sit Ups 4 rounds
scorpions
Box Jumps for height
Tabata hollow rocks 4 rounds
Static Stretching for Shoulder

Strength B
Overhead Squat 3 sets of 5 (Will be much lighter than your power clean. So you won't be exhausting the clean).
Press 3 sets of 5
Trap Bar deadlift 1x5

Conditioning:
5 rounds of
As many as possible narrow pushups (heart to hearts or whatever they are called in your region)
As many as possible pull ups
As many as possibly (Ring) dips

Day 3:
Warmup
10-15 minutes jogging
As many rounds through as possible (focusing on perfect form) in 8 minutes
24 Russian twists with homemade medicine ball
24 Reverse Lunges
30 second static stretch for hamstring

Strength A
Squat Clean 3x5
Bench Press 3x5
Good Morning 3x8

Conditioning
For Time: 5 rounds
32 Lunge Jumps
800m run

Next week switch all the conditioning and warm up to different exercises and flip the workouts like SS. Week 1 Strength = A B A ,. Week 2 B A B. When an exercise stalls, replace it. Press will stall, switch to a push press or jerk. Bench press, switch to narrow grip. Squat Clean, switch to single leg (but make sure it 10 reps). Trap bar, switch to sumo style. Good mornings can be switched to snatch pulls.

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04-19-2012, 07:52 AM
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Marotte Marauder
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There are an awful lot of guys out there trying to reinvent the wheel. Not much new out there if you strip away the dogma. Why get all complicated?

http://danjohn.net/the-overhead-squat-article/

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04-19-2012, 09:43 AM
  #115
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There are an awful lot of guys out there trying to reinvent the wheel. Not much new out there if you strip away the dogma. Why get all complicated?

http://danjohn.net/the-overhead-squat-article/
Good article. 2 issues though.
1: The overhead squat is my favorite lift. However, it is also the lift most people have trouble with since it requires the ability to engage the core, the ability to push the shoulders to the ears and properly lock out, and the ability to get below parrel. It is an exercise I have a hard time recomending to someone who I haven't seen move before.

2: Keeping it simple is a bit of a misnomer. For many people, keeping it simple, means different things. For instance, in that article Dan John talks about only training 3x a week. This has been the simple answer for many - especially Americans - for years. However, keeping it simple for the Bulgarians and Russians it means something else entirely. It meant 4 to 6x a week. Another issue is linear progression. Many, like Rippetoe and Wendler stress it as a simple basic for the beginner. However, others, like Charles Poliquin have a different view.

It isn't so much that it is over complicated, it is that there are a variety of simple views that contradict one another.

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04-19-2012, 10:05 AM
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I'd like to try that but my ceilings are only 7' tall. Actually when I do OH presses I have to do it in this stepped down area of my basement. Really sucks.

OH squats will be on the list of things I look forward to trying once I get a little more space. Unless it's an apartment, in which case I'm not sure what I'll be doing.

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04-19-2012, 10:55 AM
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Marotte Marauder
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Originally Posted by BaconStrips View Post
Good article. 2 issues though.
1: The overhead squat is my favorite lift. However, it is also the lift most people have trouble with since it requires the ability to engage the core, the ability to push the shoulders to the ears and properly lock out, and the ability to get below parrel. It is an exercise I have a hard time recomending to someone who I haven't seen move before.

2: Keeping it simple is a bit of a misnomer. For many people, keeping it simple, means different things. For instance, in that article Dan John talks about only training 3x a week. This has been the simple answer for many - especially Americans - for years. However, keeping it simple for the Bulgarians and Russians it means something else entirely. It meant 4 to 6x a week. Another issue is linear progression. Many, like Rippetoe and Wendler stress it as a simple basic for the beginner. However, others, like Charles Poliquin have a different view.

It isn't so much that it is over complicated, it is that there are a variety of simple views that contradict one another.
My poit is that there is no "perfect" routine, frequency or exercises. This is where "perfect" becomes the enemy of good enough.

People need to find what they will stick with as consistency of approach is the greates influence in most any endeavor.

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04-19-2012, 10:59 AM
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Yeah I'd agree with that. Became very apparent the more I looked at different systems. That's why I'm not changing my current routine for a good while. I need to focus a little less on the future and worry about the present...

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04-20-2012, 01:01 AM
  #119
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Maybe I've mentioned it already but a very good resource to have is Peter Twists "Complete Conditioning for Hockey".

Comes with a DVD as well to show some of the exercises/routines.

He covers pretty much everything:

- base conditioning
- strength and power
- balance
- quickness
- agility and reactivity
- speed

He talks about neural overload, myofacial release (foam rolling), lots of hockey replication exercises.

Think it's about $23.

I do foam rolling before my games for my stretching warm up. Don't really bother with on ice static exercises and don't think I'd go back to that.

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04-20-2012, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Maybe I've mentioned it already but a very good resource to have is Peter Twists "Complete Conditioning for Hockey".

Comes with a DVD as well to show some of the exercises/routines.

He covers pretty much everything:

- base conditioning
- strength and power
- balance
- quickness
- agility and reactivity
- speed

He talks about neural overload, myofacial release (foam rolling), lots of hockey replication exercises.

Think it's about $23.

I do foam rolling before my games for my stretching warm up. Don't really bother with on ice static exercises and don't think I'd go back to that.
Peter Twist is pretty balla. I assume the DVD is money.

I quit static stretching then someone was like no dude, its sweet. At which point I just started doing both. If you like foam rolling, get a lacrosse ball - especially for the glutes (ass).

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04-20-2012, 04:03 PM
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Lonny Bohonos
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Peter Twist is pretty balla. I assume the DVD is money.

I quit static stretching then someone was like no dude, its sweet. At which point I just started doing both. If you like foam rolling, get a lacrosse ball - especially for the glutes (ass).

Played a few seasons of JrA Lax but now live in the middle east so Lax balls are non existent.

Have some of the foam balls which works well and the foam rollers.

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04-21-2012, 10:58 PM
  #122
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I'm at 175 squat now, up from 135 earlier in the month, and starting at 95 at the start of the year. I'm probably going to stay for about another 4-6 weeks until I can hit ~225x5. That seems to be when most guys stall and/or de-load initially.
I use SS to train in the off-season. I usually start the squat at 225 lbs x 5 reps x 3 sets in April, and work my way up to 355 lbs x 5 reps x 3 sets by September on Linear Progression. SS is good enough for recreational / lower-level hockey; I don't think you would need to go to a different program unless you are nearing your genetic potential or wanting to switch your emphasis to powerlifting.

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04-22-2012, 08:48 PM
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The OH squat is one of the more complicated exercises out there. I wouldn't recommend it for beginners.

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04-23-2012, 08:05 AM
  #124
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The OH squat is one of the more complicated exercises out there. I wouldn't recommend it for beginners.
Yup. It is good to do with a broomstick as a warmup though.

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04-23-2012, 10:47 AM
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Okay, I was literally laying awake and thinking about this one for a bit. For hockey, wouldn't front squats be better than back squats? They would load the back less, keep the torso more upright, and hit the glutes a bit more.

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