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Who is the New "Best Player Outside of NHL"?

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Old
04-23-2012, 07:37 AM
  #51
Zine
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
As silly as you claim my argument is I am the only one who has backed anything up here with facts. Facts that no one has disputed.

I'm sure you would admit, and your posting history shows, you are extremely pro-Russian and anti-Canadian. Because of this your opinion on these matters means absolutley nothing to me. Unless you have some actual evidence to support your claims then I don't know what there is to talk about.

My Evidence?

1st team all-star.....1 time
Regular season MVP.....0 times
Playoff MVP..........0 times
Defenseman player of the month (spanning entire KHL career)......2 times
Unanimously agreed upon by people who watch KHL....not the best player.


Your evidence?

I don't watch much KHL, but look at his stats! Stats I tells ya! Stats!





Last edited by Zine: 04-23-2012 at 07:42 AM.
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04-23-2012, 08:41 AM
  #52
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Wasn't Dallman named the best Dman of KHL in 08/09? Wikipedia seems to agree. But, yeah, I agree with Zine, no sane person, who more or less follows KHL, can label Dallman as the best player in the league. If he would be everything Mr Kanadensisk claims him to be, he would be long gone from Astana (probably to NHL, let alone a real KHL powerhouse), who lead by Dallman have never gone past first playoff round.

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04-23-2012, 08:58 AM
  #53
Mr Kanadensisk
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
My Evidence?

1st team all-star.....1 time
Regular season MVP.....0 times
Playoff MVP..........0 times
Defenseman player of the month (spanning entire KHL career)......2 times
well at least we've got you thinking, however all your evidence is subjective and thus prone to biases, whereas stats are not.

Maybe by limiting the number of such awards given to North Americans they are trying to make the ones they do give out more special?

I doubt you will respond, but please list the KHL awards that your picks for the best player have received.


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04-23-2012, 11:53 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
well at least we've got you thinking, however all your evidence is subjective and thus prone to biases, whereas stats are not.

Maybe by limiting the number of such awards given to North Americans they are trying to make the ones they do give out more special?

I doubt you will respond, but please list the KHL awards that your picks for the best player have received.
Nope.

YOUR stats are subjective b/c they're not used in proper context......and your evidence is primitive considering you rely solely on stats. Nothing regarding how he's used in Barys, ice time, d-partner, pp, style of game, and how it all influences his numbers relative to other KHLers? Difficult to know if you don't watch the KHL, right?


BTW, you never truly answered ozo's question. If Karlsson scored another 5 points, would he be better (by quite a bit) than every NHLer? You claimed as much for Dallman in the KHL.

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04-23-2012, 12:07 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I doubt you will respond, but please list the KHL awards that your picks for the best player have received.


Who'd I pick? Vehanen and Cervenka? Both havent played in the KHL as long as Dallman...but Vehanen has a goalie of the year and already matches Dallman in players of the month. Cervenka will likely win the playoff MVP (knock on wood). Then there's other guys like Nikulin, Mozyakin, Zaripov, etc. who I also like and have won more hardware. 1st all-star, playoff MVP, for Nikulin; Zaripov has an league MVP and a first team, 2 1st teams for Mozyakin and all of them have won numerous players/month. Then there's younger guys like Shipachev/Tarasenko/Kuznetsov who are just starting out.

AND IMPORTANTLY these are guys who've performed come playoff time. Dallman's play drops....not exactly a good characteristic for a 'best player' to have.


Everything aside, Dallman is a super player. I'd say he's the KHL equivalent of Mike Green.....someone who sees the ice well, can run a PP and rack-up points; but also really questionable in his own zone and takes a nose dive in the playoffs.

But all in all the KHL is (was) extremely lucky and fortunate to have him.


Last edited by Zine: 04-23-2012 at 12:29 PM.
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04-23-2012, 04:37 PM
  #56
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Okay I will chime in here. I don't think a defenseman would be considered for best player outside the NHL in the first place. Forwards are just more compelling unless its Nik Lidstrom or something. Having said that, Dallman could be the best defenseman in the KHL. Key stat: All time record for goals by a defenseman in the top Russian circuit, last held by the formidable Mr. Fetisov. No one can argue that stat, best scoring dman out of any soviet/russian player in Russia ever! Dallman may or may not be lousy if he goes back to the NHL someday, but he is certainly a great European styled defenseman, possibly the best.

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Old
04-23-2012, 07:28 PM
  #57
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My guess would be Brunner, but he's going to get NHL interest for sure now.

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04-23-2012, 08:07 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Nope.

YOUR stats are subjective b/c they're not used in proper context......and your evidence is primitive considering you rely solely on stats. Nothing regarding how he's used in Barys, ice time, d-partner, pp, style of game, and how it all influences his numbers relative to other KHLers? Difficult to know if you don't watch the KHL, right?


BTW, you never truly answered ozo's question. If Karlsson scored another 5 points, would he be better (by quite a bit) than every NHLer? You claimed as much for Dallman in the KHL.
I don't doubt that you have put a lot of time into thinking of ways to discredit Dallman's achievements, just as if he was Russian you would be arguing up and down that he was better than Orr. In the end of the day no one knows how he would do on another team until he actually plays on one. I guess we are going to find out.

If Carlsson did it more than once he would certainly deserve consideration depending on how the other players around him did. For example Coffee finished 2nd in league scoring in 83/84, but the guy ahead of him had 79 more points and I would not say he was the best that year.
If Dallman had 10 more points and won the scoring race would you consider him the best in the KHL that season?

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04-23-2012, 08:18 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Okay I will chime in here. I don't think a defenseman would be considered for best player outside the NHL in the first place. Forwards are just more compelling unless its Nik Lidstrom or something. Having said that, Dallman could be the best defenseman in the KHL. Key stat: All time record for goals by a defenseman in the top Russian circuit, last held by the formidable Mr. Fetisov. No one can argue that stat, best scoring dman out of any soviet/russian player in Russia ever! Dallman may or may not be lousy if he goes back to the NHL someday, but he is certainly a great European styled defenseman, possibly the best.
I understand your perspective. For example in the NHL the only d-man to win the Hart since Orr is Pronger. It is also very hard for goalies to win the Hart. I think part of this is because there isn't an equivalent to the Vezina or Norris for forwards so by default they are the first considered for the Hart. I've never agreed with this though. I think a goalie or a d-man are just as likely to be the most valuable to their team. For example look at how much ice time a top end d-man logs over the season.

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04-24-2012, 01:28 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malkinfan View Post
Having said that, Dallman could be the best defenseman in the KHL. Key stat: All time record for goals by a defenseman in the top Russian circuit, last held by the formidable Mr. Fetisov. No one can argue that stat, best scoring dman out of any soviet/russian player in Russia ever! Dallman may or may not be lousy if he goes back to the NHL someday, but he is certainly a great European styled defenseman, possibly the best.
I'd say he's maybe the best purely offensive defenseman in the KHL (however, Kirill Koltsov and maybe Kalinin are good choices as well), not overall.

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04-24-2012, 10:41 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by PensFan101 View Post
My guess would be Brunner, but he's going to get NHL interest for sure now.
He already made clear that he'll sign an NHL-contract this summer. He already had offers a year ago.

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Old
04-24-2012, 06:06 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
Wasn't Dallman named the best Dman of KHL in 08/09? Wikipedia seems to agree. But, yeah, I agree with Zine, no sane person, who more or less follows KHL, can label Dallman as the best player in the league. If he would be everything Mr Kanadensisk claims him to be, he would be long gone from Astana (probably to NHL, let alone a real KHL powerhouse), who lead by Dallman have never gone past first playoff round.
He isnt going to leave Astana due to him being a citizen of that country and most likely having his home/family there. He is also the captain of there team how does him being loyal to his KHL team determine his skill? If he switched to a "better" KHL team it would instantly make him better?

Also saying that his team hasnt made it out of the first round reflects badly on him isnt entirely fair, the team he is on is no powerhouse every year there closer to last place then first.
In a 24 team league they have finished
08-09 15th
09-10 14th
10-11 14th
11-12 10th

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04-24-2012, 06:57 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I don't doubt that you have put a lot of time into thinking of ways to discredit Dallman's achievements, just as if he was Russian you would be arguing up and down that he was better than Orr. In the end of the day no one knows how he would do on another team until he actually plays on one. I guess we are going to find out.
I don't discredit achievements because of nationality, I put achievements and stats in context.
*Thats why scouts watch players instead of drafting because of stats/awards.
*Thats why Corey Perry, despite winning 2011 Hart, never has realistically been considered the best player in the NHL.
*Thats why a prime Ray Bourque is universally considered better than a prime Paul Coffey despite Coffey's point totals.

If Bobby Orr was a 1 dimensional offensive d-man with issues in his own zone, would he still be considered the best of his time? Likely not.

But we wouldn't know any of this if we looked at stats solely, would we?

How can you judge a player if you rarely (if ever) watch him or his competiton play?...we can't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
If Dallman had 10 more points and won the scoring race would you consider him the best in the KHL that season?
Depends on the circumstance, and other player's performances that year.

I wouldn't be against giving him the regular season MVP, but I wouldn't regard him as best player, because:
1. being a defenseman, his primary responsibility (defensive game) has considerable holes.
2. He's doing what he's doing on Astana, not a powerhouse team.
3. His level of play has always taken a nose-dive when it's most important..the playoffs.


Last edited by Zine: 04-25-2012 at 04:56 AM.
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04-25-2012, 01:01 AM
  #64
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I watched Dallman in Guelph and he was a beast, but him like Andre Benoit were too small and weak defensively to play in the NHL which I assume an issue overseas.

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04-25-2012, 05:58 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Playerwinner View Post
He isnt going to leave Astana due to him being a citizen of that country and most likely having his home/family there. He is also the captain of there team how does him being loyal to his KHL team determine his skill? If he switched to a "better" KHL team it would instantly make him better?

Also saying that his team hasnt made it out of the first round reflects badly on him isnt entirely fair, the team he is on is no powerhouse every year there closer to last place then first.
In a 24 team league they have finished
08-09 15th
09-10 14th
10-11 14th
11-12 10th
Unfortunately his contract with Barys has been terminated and he and his wife have been kicked out of Kazakstan. It turns out in the end that it was a rumor that he became a citizen but that he never went through with hit. His wife had a blog going where she was critical of the corruption in Kazakstan and as a result the government kicked them out. There is a thread in the KHL forum with more details.

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04-25-2012, 06:35 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
I don't discredit achievements because of nationality, I put achievements and stats in context.
and my experience is that your "context" is always of one against Canadians and for Russians.

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
His level of play has always taken a nose-dive when it's most important..the playoffs.
So if I've got this right the only reason he gets so many regular season points is because he plays on a crappy team, yet you are critizing his playoff performance? First of all he only has 14 playoff games in the KHL so you are looking at an extremely small sample size. Secondly the better your teammates are and the weaker your competition is helps you get points, which is the case when you play for a good team, especially in the playoffs where for example Barys has always played a much higher seeded team. This holds true in almost every case so the fact your are trying to make Dallman an exception and your history of discriminating against Canadians tells me that you are most likely full of it.

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04-25-2012, 01:23 PM
  #67
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Also Janne Niskala, he played 6 games in Tampa Bay in 08-09, 3 points in 6 games but returned to europe, not sure why. Also i think he holds the record of most points by a D in elitserien

He is really good two-way defenseman.
Actually he is third nowadays with the 49 points in 53 games he had in 2006-07 season. David Petrasek beat the record in 2009-10 season with 53 points in 52 games and David Rundblad is also ahead of him after having 50 points in 55 games last season.

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04-26-2012, 03:55 AM
  #68
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Roman Cervenka or Patrick Thorensen are good picks.
I don't follow Elitserien or Finnish league closely, there are talented guys too.
And I'm sure the best player outside NHL is goalie probably.

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04-26-2012, 07:22 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
and my experience is that your "context" is always of one against Canadians and for Russians.
C'mon, enough with the accusations every post. Resorting to "You hate Canadians" or "KHL is biased" means you having nothing left to say.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
So if I've got this right the only reason he gets so many regular season points is because he plays on a crappy team, yet you are critizing his playoff performance? First of all he only has 14 playoff games in the KHL so you are looking at an extremely small sample size. Secondly the better your teammates are and the weaker your competition is helps you get points, which is the case when you play for a good team, especially in the playoffs where for example Barys has always played a much higher seeded team. This holds true in almost every case so the fact your are trying to make Dallman an exception and your history of discriminating against Canadians tells me that you are most likely full of it.
Most player's point totals decline in playoffs...big deal. We're discussing playoff performance (you'd know nothing about b/c you don't watch KHL)

Regardless of strength of team, teammates or circumstance, the best players DO NOT individually disappoint in the playoffs year in and year out.

And lots of players from mid-level KHL teams thrive come playoff time. The guys on Riga usually step it up. Last year upper mid level Atlant made it to the finals.


Last edited by Zine: 04-26-2012 at 07:40 AM.
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04-26-2012, 09:13 AM
  #70
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C'mon, enough with the accusations every post. Resorting to "You hate Canadians" or "KHL is biased" means you having nothing left to say.
It's true, there is nothing much else I can say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Regardless of strength of team, teammates or circumstance, the best players DO NOT individually disappoint in the playoffs year in and year out.
A lot of players on the Red Wings had the poor playoff performer label for years. Then they started winning cups and all was forgotten. 14 games is not enough to make any kind of sound evaluation plus for better or worse things are going to change next year.

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04-26-2012, 07:17 PM
  #71
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It's true, there is nothing much else I can say.



A lot of players on the Red Wings had the poor playoff performer label for years. Then they started winning cups and all was forgotten. 14 games is not enough to make any kind of sound evaluation plus for better or worse things are going to change next year.

Sure it is, especially when the sample size spans 4 years.

Dallman's put up insane offensive stats.....but he's also very 1 dimensional and always nose dives in the playoffs. That's hardly a recipe for best player; much less 'quite a bit better' than everybody else.

Is he a fantastic KHLer? Of course. I really hope the KHL keeps him.
But the best player? Unfortunately, no.


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04-26-2012, 08:51 PM
  #72
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Is he a fantastic KHLer? Of course. I really hope the KHL keeps him.
But the best player? Unfortunately, no.
I haven't seen a compelling argument for anyone else.

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04-27-2012, 05:49 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I haven't seen a compelling argument for anyone else.
No argument is needed for most of these players....it's common sense. But you wouldn't know this because you don't watch the KHL.

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04-28-2012, 04:35 AM
  #74
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Roman Cervenka, maybe?

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04-29-2012, 03:24 PM
  #75
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oldrich valek
Oh I miss that player Easely the best player in the Norwegian leauge in the early 90th.

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