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Hank bashing needs to STOP

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Old
04-23-2012, 10:28 AM
  #201
darrenturcotte#8
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Hank is a fantastic goaltender who stops 93% of everything he sees. That has NOTHING to do with his 1-7 playoff OT record and his well sub .900 save % in playoff OT's. Is it possible he's a fantastic, Vezina quality goaltender, who isn't at his best in playoff OT???

Can someone make this point without "bashing" him? The Rangers wouldn't be where they are without Hank. But the reality is he's been below avg in playoff OT's and that IS a legitimate cause for concern. (not as big as the lack of scoring)

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04-23-2012, 10:35 AM
  #202
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@stevezipay Lundqvist, Biron and Rangers on ice here at scotiabank

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04-23-2012, 10:38 AM
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrenturcotte#8 View Post
Hank is a fantastic goaltender who stops 93% of everything he sees. That has NOTHING to do with his 1-7 playoff OT record and his well sub .900 save % in playoff OT's. Is it possible he's a fantastic, Vezina quality goaltender, who isn't at his best in playoff OT???

Can someone make this point without "bashing" him? The Rangers wouldn't be where they are without Hank. But the reality is he's been below avg in playoff OT's and that IS a legitimate cause for concern. (not as big as the lack of scoring)
That sums it up nicely if you ask me. You can close the thread now as far as I'm concerned.

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04-23-2012, 12:00 PM
  #204
stan the caddy
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Lundqvist's career overtime playoff minutes are roughly the equivalent to about a games worth of work. If you're judging a player based off of that small a sample size you've got no business looking at statistics to begin with.

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04-23-2012, 12:16 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrenturcotte#8 View Post
Hank is a fantastic goaltender who stops 93% of everything he sees. That has NOTHING to do with his 1-7 playoff OT record and his well sub .900 save % in playoff OT's. Is it possible he's a fantastic, Vezina quality goaltender, who isn't at his best in playoff OT???

Can someone make this point without "bashing" him? The Rangers wouldn't be where they are without Hank. But the reality is he's been below avg in playoff OT's and that IS a legitimate cause for concern. (not as big as the lack of scoring)
Agreed 100% but for $7 mio a year, I was hoping he would hold the fort in OT games 2 and 4 for more than 5 minutes.

Since we have a cap, would we be better off with a $2 mio goalie who stops only 90% of everything he sees and use the other $5 mio for a scorer to address the scoring that is the cause for concern?

Again, not bashing Hank here.

I know he's the King but just pointing out that expectations are aligned with compensation. As an example, if Dubi was at his old salary, we'd all be looking at him a bit differently today (still bad but less bad).

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04-23-2012, 12:18 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by MessierIsGod View Post
Agreed 100% but for $7 mio a year, I was hoping he would hold the fort in OT games 2 and 4 for more than 5 minutes.
I dont understand how not being able to make 2 (very difficult) saves in OT is grounds for chastising Lundqvist's overall play and tie it to his salary. Luckily, I dont think you do either.

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04-23-2012, 12:23 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont understand how not being able to make 2 (very difficult) saves in OT is grounds for chastising Lundqvist's overall play and tie it to his salary. Luckily, I dont think you do either.
Let's give him a raise then.

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04-23-2012, 12:32 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierIsGod View Post
Agreed 100% but for $7 mio a year, I was hoping he would hold the fort in OT games 2 and 4 for more than 5 minutes.

Since we have a cap, would we be better off with a $2 mio goalie who stops only 90% of everything he sees and use the other $5 mio for a scorer to address the scoring that is the cause for concern?

Again, not bashing Hank here.

I know he's the King but just pointing out that expectations are aligned with compensation. As an example, if Dubi was at his old salary, we'd all be looking at him a bit differently today (still bad but less bad).
Yet you are bashing Hank and continue to backtrack by saying you aren't.

Quality trolling man. I don't care if you state how he has 1-7 OT record, fine by me, but to claim how he is not even worth the 7 mill is utter non-sense. If you haven't noticed either, we also have two other guys making a near that same cap hit. Go and bash them.

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04-23-2012, 12:51 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by stan the caddy View Post
Lundqvist's career overtime playoff minutes are roughly the equivalent to about a games worth of work. If you're judging a player based off of that small a sample size you've got no business looking at statistics to begin with.
That's how playoff OT works...you are judged over a relatively short period of time. All players are.

For Hank, that period of time 'equivalent to about a games worth of work', decided eight crucial playoff games.

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04-23-2012, 02:40 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
That's how playoff OT works...you are judged over a relatively short period of time. All players are.

For Hank, that period of time 'equivalent to about a games worth of work', decided eight crucial playoff games.
Then where is the judgment of the players who are never able to score for the Rangers? I've watched every playoff overtime game Lundqvist has ever played. Offense has almost always been the problem.

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2012/0...time-woes.html

The 2-1 loss to Buffalo, when Drury tied the game with 7.7 seconds to go...the Rangers scored one goal the entire game. You expect to win games that last more than 3 periods by scoring 1 goal? The 2008 series-ending loss to the Penguins, the Rangers failed to register a single shot on goal the entire overtime period. But that loss is on Lundqvist? Last season, against the Caps...again, they scored 1 goal in the game that Semin won in OT. In fact, in the 7 OT losses in Lundqvist's career, his team has scored more than 2 goals just twice. 5 of those 7 losses, the Rangers scored 2 or 1 goals. When you score 1 or 2 goals, you can't reasonably expect to win most games.

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04-23-2012, 03:21 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Then where is the judgment of the players who are never able to score for the Rangers? I've watched every playoff overtime game Lundqvist has ever played. Offense has almost always been the problem.

http://nymag.com/daily/sports/2012/0...time-woes.html

The 2-1 loss to Buffalo, when Drury tied the game with 7.7 seconds to go...the Rangers scored one goal the entire game. You expect to win games that last more than 3 periods by scoring 1 goal? The 2008 series-ending loss to the Penguins, the Rangers failed to register a single shot on goal the entire overtime period. But that loss is on Lundqvist? Last season, against the Caps...again, they scored 1 goal in the game that Semin won in OT. In fact, in the 7 OT losses in Lundqvist's career, his team has scored more than 2 goals just twice. 5 of those 7 losses, the Rangers scored 2 or 1 goals. When you score 1 or 2 goals, you can't reasonably expect to win most games.
Some folks just can't look beyond stats or be bothered to remember circumstances. Nice to see someone that does.

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04-23-2012, 03:57 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by NYR Sting View Post
Then where is the judgment of the players who are never able to score for the Rangers? I've watched every playoff overtime game Lundqvist has ever played. Offense has almost always been the problem.
The judgment stands for everyone...the offense, the defense and the goaltending. Winning and losing is a team effort. Just like the 1-7 record cannot be laid completely at the skates of Hank, he cannot be held blameless either. It falls on everyone.

Someone said Hank has played roughly the equivalent of one full game of overtime hockey. He's allowed seven goals. So he gets part of the blame.

He has to stop being outplayed by opposing goalies.

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04-23-2012, 04:23 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
The judgment stands for everyone...the offense, the defense and the goaltending. Winning and losing is a team effort. Just like the 1-7 record cannot be laid completely at the skates of Hank, he cannot be held blameless either. It falls on everyone.

Someone said Hank has played roughly the equivalent of one full game of overtime hockey. He's allowed seven goals. So he gets part of the blame.

He has to stop being outplayed by opposing goalies.
Allowing 7 goals is directly contingent on our offense not scoring first in those OT periods. How do you know Lundqvist is being outplayed by the opposing team's goalie? What if our forwards are being outplayed by the opposing team's forwards?

When have the Rangers ever produced offense consistently in the playoffs since the lockout?

If winning is a team effort, what do we say about the elements of our team that are not doing their share of the heavy lifting???

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04-23-2012, 04:36 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Allowing 7 goals is directly contingent on our offense not scoring first in those OT periods. How do you know Lundqvist is being outplayed by the opposing team's goalie? What if our forwards are being outplayed by the opposing team's forwards?
Yep, you're right...as I said, the offense, defense and goaltending are all to blame.

Quote:
If winning is a team effort, what do we say about the elements of our team that are not doing their share of the heavy lifting???
They all have to play better, from the goaltender to the goal scorers, and everyone in between.

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04-23-2012, 04:48 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Yep, you're right...as I said, the offense, defense and goaltending are all to blame.



They all have to play better, from the goaltender to the goal scorers, and everyone in between.
If we were ranking the blame among our forwards, d-men, and goaltender, I would rank as follows:

1. Forwards (most to blame)
2. Defense
3. Goaltending (least to blame)

Too many disappearing acts among our forwards.

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04-23-2012, 04:51 PM
  #216
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Re: Playoff OT discussion. Weren't Brodeur's playoff OT numbers abysmal as well? I used to use that as a reason why Brodeur didn't belong in the conversation of "best all-time" or at the very least, overrated.

When it comes down to it, that's kinda a trollish type argument that I was making, with full knowledge of that fact. If it was a trollish type argument for Brodeur, it's also the same for Lundqvist.

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Old
04-23-2012, 05:21 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by MessierIsGod View Post
Agreed 100% but for $7 mio a year, I was hoping he would hold the fort in OT games 2 and 4 for more than 5 minutes.

Since we have a cap, would we be better off with a $2 mio goalie who stops only 90% of everything he sees and use the other $5 mio for a scorer to address the scoring that is the cause for concern?

Again, not bashing Hank here.

I know he's the King but just pointing out that expectations are aligned with compensation. As an example, if Dubi was at his old salary, we'd all be looking at him a bit differently today (still bad but less bad).
Good post. I love the logic applied here and I stated a while back that if we had a good goalie prospect in our system, I would consider moving Hank when his contract runs out to a contender that needs an elite level goalie. Hank has been our #1 guy pretty much since day one(after Jagr that 1st year) and his biological clock is ticking.
I don't know where we'll stand as a team after the 2013/14 season when his contract runs out, but I'm sure his game will still be there as a top level goalie and if hypothetically we had a good/cheaper replacement for him, we could maximize our return by trading him.
I know without a doubt this will be a very unpopular post that will be criticized here to no end but much better goalies than Hank have been traded during their careers!

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04-23-2012, 05:42 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Drewbackatu View Post
Good post. I love the logic applied here and I stated a while back that if we had a good goalie prospect in our system, I would consider moving Hank when his contract runs out to a contender that needs an elite level goalie. Hank has been our #1 guy pretty much since day one(after Jagr that 1st year) and his biological clock is ticking.
I don't know where we'll stand as a team after the 2013/14 season when his contract runs out, but I'm sure his game will still be there as a top level goalie and if hypothetically we had a good/cheaper replacement for him, we could maximize our return by trading him.
I know without a doubt this will be a very unpopular post that will be criticized here to no end but much better goalies than Hank have been traded during their careers!
Thank you. Finally someone who sees my point.

I wasn't bashing Hank. It was more about having a balanced team that can contend for the Cup.

If we win the next two and have a deep run, then it means this team can contend with a highly paid goalie.

If not, then as good as Hank is, we will not get very far. Unless he's totally flawless which no goalie can ever be.

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04-23-2012, 05:45 PM
  #219
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Lundqvist's next contract isn't going to be near $7m again.

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04-23-2012, 05:50 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MessierIsGod View Post
Thank you. Finally someone who sees my point.

I wasn't bashing Hank. It was more about having a balanced team that can contend for the Cup.

If we win the next two and have a deep run, then it means this team can contend with a highly paid goalie.

If not, then as good as Hank is, we will not get very far. Unless he's totally flawless which no goalie can ever be.
Uh huh..

Which is why multiple times ITT you've claimed he is overrated, not worth the 7mill cap hit, and repeatedly brought up his 1-7 OT record as if it was all his fault.

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04-23-2012, 06:08 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Uh huh..

Which is why multiple times ITT you've claimed he is overrated, not worth the 7mill cap hit, and repeatedly brought up his 1-7 OT record as if it was all his fault.
1-7 is a fact. Didn't know overrated is considered bashing.

Never said all his fault.

My apologies. Please stop stalking me. It's just discussion.

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04-23-2012, 06:19 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by MessierIsGod View Post
Agreed 100% but for $7 mio a year, I was hoping he would hold the fort in OT games 2 and 4 for more than 5 minutes.

Since we have a cap, would we be better off with a $2 mio goalie who stops only 90% of everything he sees and use the other $5 mio for a scorer to address the scoring that is the cause for concern?

Again, not bashing Hank here.

I know he's the King but just pointing out that expectations are aligned with compensation. As an example, if Dubi was at his old salary, we'd all be looking at him a bit differently today (still bad but less bad).
Clearly you're not bashing him

"He's overrated, average or slightly above average at best. I can't see how we can win the Cup with him."

Yes I think "overrated" and "average" are words most people would associate with Lundqvist (the fools at hockey writers association excluded who voted him the Rangers MVP for 5 consecutive seasons)

Let some other team take him and his worthless contract off your hands. A 2mil goalie and a 5 mil forward is the recipe for success.

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04-23-2012, 06:22 PM
  #223
haohmaru
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See? Traffic in front = can't see the puck. It's what the Rangers AREN'T doing on the other end.

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04-23-2012, 06:34 PM
  #224
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See that play? Konopka pulls up right in front of Lundqvist and sprays an ice shower in his face right as the puck comes into the crease. This is stuff Anderson isn't dealing with and should be.

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04-23-2012, 06:54 PM
  #225
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If I'm Lundy, I'd demand them to trade me to a better offensive team.

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