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Old
04-23-2012, 10:54 AM
  #76
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I was down on the Leino signing as soon as it happened and this season has not turned me around on the guy.

The Vogl wrap up of his locker clean out day comments only cements it for me.

First, did Leino do any homework on the Sabres or just take the biggest offer in front of him? The Sabres needed a center and they have a coach with a well established reputation for changes lines frequently. Why did Leino sign here if he didn't really want to play center and if he felt that he'd need linemate stability to thrive?

Second, shut up about needing PP time to produce offensively. I have no problem with Ruff going with guys that are producing on the PP over guys that aren't to "get them going".

Third, shut up about it being hard to get up for games early in the season. It's great that you're trying to be honest. But, how about you act like a pro and get yourself ready to play 82 games a year and not just when you feel like it?

Finally, I wish Leino would take Miller's tact and look in the mirror long before he talks about everyone else around him. Leino needs to do a heck of a lot more before I listen to him.

If Pominville had said a lot of the stuff that Leino did, then I'd give it more weight.

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04-23-2012, 11:39 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I was down on the Leino signing as soon as it happened and this season has not turned me around on the guy.

The Vogl wrap up of his locker clean out day comments only cements it for me.

First, did Leino do any homework on the Sabres or just take the biggest offer in front of him? The Sabres needed a center and they have a coach with a well established reputation for changes lines frequently. Why did Leino sign here if he didn't really want to play center and if he felt that he'd need linemate stability to thrive?
Ruff has typically kept two forwards together. Leino found his most frequent linemate to be the Sabres best two-way player, Jason Pominville, when all was said and done. Perhaps that's his linemate moving forward.

Quote:
Second, shut up about needing PP time to produce offensively. I have no problem with Ruff going with guys that are producing on the PP over guys that aren't to "get them going.
Going with guys that are producing? Roy wasn't producing nearly enough to merit so much powerplay ice time. Yet there he was, all season long, on the top powerplay unit.

Let's not ignore the bias.

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04-23-2012, 11:56 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Ruff has typically kept two forwards together. Leino found his most frequent linemate to be the Sabres best two-way player, Jason Pominville, when all was said and done. Perhaps that's his linemate moving forward.

Going with guys that are producing? Roy wasn't producing nearly enough to merit so much powerplay ice time. Yet there he was, all season long, on the top powerplay unit.

Let's not ignore the bias.
Looking at forwards only:

Roy : 4th in PP points (6G 6A) 3rd in Total PP TOI (209:28)
Leino :10th in PP points (1G) 9th in Total PP TOI (74:26)

Roy was only 4th in points because Hodgson had a lot in Vancouver. Pomminville, Vanek, and Roy were the only Sabres that played the entire season and had double digit PP points.

Roy's icetime was clearly justified.

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04-23-2012, 11:59 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Sorta diva-ish......

He wasn't fond of position switches, yet he's the one who asked for the switch. He wants more ice time, even though he's not producing in the time that he is given.

Yeah, based on these comments, I feel like I'm writing him off. Big mistake to sign him unless he turns it around.


leino needs some deal with it shades lol

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04-23-2012, 12:09 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
leino needs some deal with it shades lol


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04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Looking at forwards only:

Roy : 4th in PP points (6G 6A) 3rd in Total PP TOI (209:28)
Leino :10th in PP points (1G) 9th in Total PP TOI (74:26)

Roy was only 4th in points because Hodgson had a lot in Vancouver. Pomminville, Vanek, and Roy were the only Sabres that played the entire season and had double digit PP points.

Roy's icetime was clearly justified.
6 goals (1/3 of which came in game 80) and 6 assists in 209:28 is clearly justified?? Wow.


Last edited by SabreBlood: 04-23-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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04-23-2012, 12:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
6 goals (1/3 of which came in game 80) and 6 assists in 209:28 is clearly justified?? Wow.
It's not great, but it's still far and away better than Leino, which was your original point.

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04-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
It's not great, but it's still far and away better than Leino, which was your original point.
It's definitely not great. It's not even good with all of that time he was given. Not nearly good enough to even make a point against Leino, considering the differential in powerplay time for each player. Roy was given 135 minutes and 2 seconds more powerplay time than Leino for the season. Roy only had 4 powerplay goals until game 80 with all of that extra time. Leino could have easily had 3 more powerplay goals by game 80 with an extra 130 or so minutes.

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04-23-2012, 01:09 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
It's definitely not great. It's not even good with all of that time he was given. Not nearly good enough to even make a point against Leino, considering the differential in powerplay time for each player. Roy was given 135 minutes and 2 seconds more powerplay time than Leino for the season. Roy only had 4 powerplay goals until game 80 with all of that extra time. Leino could have easily had 3 more powerplay goals by game 80 with an extra 130 or so minutes.
As an outsider, that would make it seem like Ruffs faith in Roy on the power play finally paid off during an important game

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04-23-2012, 01:11 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
It's definitely not great. It's not even good with all of that time he was given. Not nearly good enough to even make a point against Leino, considering the differential in powerplay time for each player. Roy was given 135 minutes and 2 seconds more powerplay time than Leino for the season. Roy only had 4 powerplay goals until game 80 with all of that extra time. Leino could have easily had 3 more powerplay goals by game 80 with an extra 130 or so minutes.
Using full season numbers:

PP TOI per point
Roy : 17.45 minutes
Leino : 74.43 minutes

If you take out those two goals :

Roy : 20.94 minutes

No matter what way you slice it, Roy was a better PP option than Leino.

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04-23-2012, 01:37 PM
  #86
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Great smack down, Jim Bob.

Leino is really starting to rub me the wrong way.

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04-23-2012, 01:55 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Using full season numbers:

PP TOI per point
Roy : 17.45 minutes
Leino : 74.43 minutes

If you take out those two goals :

Roy : 20.94 minutes

No matter what way you slice it, Roy was a better PP option than Leino.
Whatever makes you feel better about the head coach and his obvious player bias.

It would be interesting to see the Math for PPTOI per goal. Especially prior to game 80.

Either way, there are other things to consider other than Math equations.

Roy lead the team in giveaways (on the other side of the coin, he also lead the team in takeaways). But I can't imagine how many of his giveaways came on the powerplay. Far too often, as soon as the puck found it's way to Roy's stick, it went 180 feet the other way. If Leino were on the powerplay a little more often, one could argue the Sabres could have held the zone a little more often, which would have resulted in a few more powerplay points.

Player chemistry can come into play as well. Roy rarely found chemistry with anyone, no matter the game situation. Leino found solid chemistry with Pominville. Using the two of them on the first powerplay unit more often is another immeasurable aspect that could have improved the powerplay, rather than forcing Roy onto the top unit every single time, all season long.

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04-23-2012, 02:02 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chiddler View Post
As an outsider, that would make it seem like Ruffs faith in Roy on the power play finally paid off during an important game
Ha! Thank goodness you included the " " ! Funny enough, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a Ruff-Apologist actually came to that conclusion.

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04-23-2012, 02:12 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Whatever makes you feel better about the head coach and his obvious player bias.

It would be interesting to see the Math for PPTOI per goal. Especially prior to game 80.

Either way, there are other things to consider other than Math equations.

Roy lead the team in giveaways (on the other side of the coin, he also lead the team in takeaways). But I can't imagine how many of his giveaways came on the powerplay. It seemed like just about every time the puck found it's way to Roy's stick, it went 180 feet the other way. If Leino were on the powerplay a little more often, one could argue the Sabres could have held the zone a little more often, which would have resulted in a few more powerplay points.
Leino : 1 G, 74:26 Total PP TOI , 74.43 minutes per goal
Roy : 6G, 209:28 Total PP TOI, 34.91 minutes
Roy (First 80 games) : 4G, 206:01 Total PP TOI, 51.50 minutes

By any metric, even throwing out Roy's two goal game, he was a more productive power play player than Leino.

You giveaway point might have some merit, but I can't locate a breakdown of giveways on the PP versus other times.

Regardless, Leino was not a productive player when given time on the PP. He needs to do what every other player in the league has to do : earn his icetime.

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04-23-2012, 02:17 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Whatever makes you feel better about the head coach and his obvious player bias.

It would be interesting to see the Math for PPTOI per goal. Especially prior to game 80.

Either way, there are other things to consider other than Math equations.

Roy lead the team in giveaways (on the other side of the coin, he also lead the team in takeaways). But I can't imagine how many of his giveaways came on the powerplay. Far too often, as soon as the puck found it's way to Roy's stick, it went 180 feet the other way. If Leino were on the powerplay a little more often, one could argue the Sabres could have held the zone a little more often, which would have resulted in a few more powerplay points.

Player chemistry can come into play as well. Roy rarely found chemistry with anyone, no matter the game situation. Leino found solid chemistry with Pominville. Using the two of them on the first powerplay unit more often is another immeasurable aspect that could have improved the powerplay, rather than forcing Roy onto the top unit every single time, all season long.
That is a big leap for me.

Leino reminds me of a few guys on my beer league team that holds onto the puck way too long and doesn't use his teammates well enough.

I wouldn't assume that Leino in for Roy would lead to more PP goals because he's better at possessing the puck.

This season, Roy was on the ice for 6.01 PP Goals per 60 min of PPTOI that he had.

Leino was on the ice for 2.42 PP Goals per 60 min of PPTOI that he had.

The PP was markedly better when Roy was on the ice last year. But, I'm sure you'll blame that all on Leino's PP linemates to match your bias against the player and coach.


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04-23-2012, 02:31 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechsack View Post
Leino : 1 G, 74:26 Total PP TOI , 74.43 minutes per goal
Roy : 6G, 209:28 Total PP TOI, 34.91 minutes
Roy (First 80 games) : 4G, 206:01 Total PP TOI, 51.50 minutes
Thanks for that.

Quote:
By any metric, even throwing out Roy's two goal game, he was a more productive power play player than Leino.

You giveaway point might have some merit, but I can't locate a breakdown of giveways on the PP versus other times.

Regardless, Leino was not a productive player when given time on the PP. He needs to do what every other player in the league has to do : earn his icetime.
Agreed; and he definitely did not do that. Can't say many players did this year. Which makes me think the blame should be placed higher.

If it were only a handful of players that underperformed, it would be easier for me to blame those players. When it was so many of them, the vast majority of them, I have to blame the coaching staff.

Jim Bob, I have a bias towards the coach? Damn straight. 10 seasons, 4 playoff births.

Where's your bias?


Last edited by SabreBlood: 04-23-2012 at 02:36 PM.
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04-23-2012, 08:01 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
I was down on the Leino signing as soon as it happened and this season has not turned me around on the guy.

The Vogl wrap up of his locker clean out day comments only cements it for me.

First, did Leino do any homework on the Sabres or just take the biggest offer in front of him? The Sabres needed a center and they have a coach with a well established reputation for changes lines frequently. Why did Leino sign here if he didn't really want to play center and if he felt that he'd need linemate stability to thrive?
I wasn't a fan of the signing either, but I think the missed homework assignment was on the part of the Sabres. They panicked when they realized they couldn't get Richards and their only other alternative was Connolly. They rushed to sign Leino with hardly any idea what he was like and a vague hope that he could play center. I can't fault the player for taking the best offer. They usually do. If the new CBA offers a buyout amnesty, Leino should be first on the list.

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04-23-2012, 08:07 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffaloed View Post
I wasn't a fan of the signing either, but I think the missed homework assignment was on the part of the Sabres. They panicked when they realized they couldn't get Richards and their only other alternative was Connolly. They rushed to sign Leino with hardly any idea what he was like and a vague hope that he could play center. I can't fault the player for taking the best offer. They usually do. If the new CBA offers a buyout amnesty, Leino should be first on the list.
You think the Sabres didn't do research on any forwards beyond Brad Richards? Considering Leino was #1 on the UFA list...

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04-23-2012, 10:01 PM
  #94
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On a semi-related topic, today, Chris Parker said on WGR that he either heard or read comments from Boyes that were similar to Leino's comments regarding Ruff and Management. Anyone know of these comments? It may be nothing, it may be yet another unhappy player in regards to Ruff


I don't want to assume or read into anything so I was just wondering if anyone knows of this.

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04-24-2012, 08:57 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
.

First, did Leino do any homework on the Sabres or just take the biggest offer in front of him?
I believe it was the latter.

Quote:
Why did Leino sign here if he didn't really want to play center and if he felt that he'd need linemate stability to thrive?
Money.

He's said stuff like this before, he did in Philly iirc.

Maybe/hopefully he focuses on offseason training more than partying for the next season.

He said something like this before turning to UFA last year: ''I like having lots of monet so I can buy stuff that I want and not worry about how much and when I spend money''.

He said before the start of the season that world hasn't seen nothing from him yet.

I'm not bashing him, just telling what's he's said done and he should take a responsibility from his actions and pick it up from now on.

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04-24-2012, 09:53 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Agreed; and he definitely did not do that. Can't say many players did this year. Which makes me think the blame should be placed higher.

If it were only a handful of players that underperformed, it would be easier for me to blame those players. When it was so many of them, the vast majority of them, I have to blame the coaching staff.

Jim Bob, I have a bias towards the coach? Damn straight. 10 seasons, 4 playoff births.

Where's your bias?
There are plenty of valid arguments to make against Ruff.

Saying that he didn't give Ville Leino enough PP time is not one of them, IMO.

And even the changing lines up is a red herring a lot of the time.

The best argument is that the only time the Sabres finished higher than 3rd in their division over the past five seasons is when Miller had a career year.

When Miller has played to his career average, they have been 3rd or worse and missed the playoffs in 3 out of those 4 seasons.

But, regardless of who the coach is, I still think Leino will be a dog that blames everyone but himself for his struggles.

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04-24-2012, 09:54 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
I believe it was the latter.



Money.

He's said stuff like this before, he did in Philly iirc.

Maybe/hopefully he focuses on offseason training more than partying for the next season.

He said something like this before turning to UFA last year: ''I like having lots of monet so I can buy stuff that I want and not worry about how much and when I spend money''.

He said before the start of the season that world hasn't seen nothing from him yet.

I'm not bashing him, just telling what's he's said done and he should take a responsibility from his actions and pick it up from now on.
The Sabres should have done more homework on Leino and let some other sucker sign him.

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04-24-2012, 10:14 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
The Sabres should have done more homework on Leino and let some other sucker sign him.
To bring this around to the $3 billion question: knowing Darcy as we do, does he seem like the kind of guy who would normally have made this mistake?

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04-24-2012, 10:19 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
There are plenty of valid arguments to make against Ruff.

Saying that he didn't give Ville Leino enough PP time is not one of them, IMO.

And even the changing lines up is a red herring a lot of the time.

The best argument is that the only time the Sabres finished higher than 3rd in their division over the past five seasons is when Miller had a career year.

When Miller has played to his career average, they have been 3rd or worse and missed the playoffs in 3 out of those 4 seasons.

But, regardless of who the coach is, I still think Leino will be a dog that blames everyone but himself for his struggles.
I completely agree that Ruff's goaltenders make him. If they're not elite by the league's standards, Ruff is miraculously not a genius.

Hasek made him. Biron helped to expose him, but the bankruptcy and criminal ownership masked Ruff's incompetence. The lockout/rule changes were sheer luck, considering a roster that was made up of smaller, very quick, highly skilled players. As the league has reverted back to allowing obstruction, allowing clutching and grabbing, Ruff is no longer a genius again *UNLESS* Ryan Miller has a Vezina-esque season.

As for Leino on the powerplay, you're probably right. It's not a very strong argument against Ruff's coaching ability. That's not to say it may have at least a little merit, however. Just another small example that adds up to the bigger picture. It all ties into his relationship with his players.

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04-24-2012, 11:00 AM
  #100
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Leino this year reminded me of Spacek's first season as a Sabre. Both were underwhelming to say the least and struggled to find their place or adapt to Ruff/the system.

Hopefully Leino's story continues on like Spacek's did.

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