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Old
04-25-2012, 06:34 AM
  #26
EbencoyE
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Originally Posted by kaiser matias View Post
I don't know if Walker's performance does hurt his draft potential. Remember, he was playing against guys who in some cases are twice his age, and some of them are in decent leagues. He also was one of only a few players to score against Poland, if that matters, so I wouldn't really use this tournament as a hindrence against him.
Good point about his age, but I think very few players in Div 1B, if any, play at as high of a level as Walker in the Czech Extraliga.

The top two teams, Poland and South Korea get their players from the Polish and Asian Leagues respectively.

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Originally Posted by Tomas W View Post
Are you sure of this. I meant "aiming" to qualify yes. But if they would be automatically qualified I would say they should aim to get good enough to avoid beeing the laughing-stock of the olympics...

My guess is that they have show some sort of quality before they get an automatic qualification. If the can stay in the Div 1A, it would be pretty well done by them. Perhaps that should be enough...though that's just a guess by me obviously. To stay in at least Div 1A it will take some effort by the South Koreans. They will have to spend some money on development, if they havent already.
I think it would be a shame if they weren't given an automatic berth as Japan and Italy both were. I wouldn't say they are much worse than either of those teams.

No amount of development is going to help them in only 6 years time, besides what they are already doing. As I said, their best bet to become more competitive would be to naturalize some foreigners as Italy did purely for the Olympics.

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04-25-2012, 10:37 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
I think it would be a shame if they weren't given an automatic berth as Japan and Italy both were. I wouldn't say they are much worse than either of those teams.
I would say they're much worse than both of those teams (Japan '98 and Italy '06).

At the time of Nagano and Torino both Japan and Italy were actually playing in the Pool A/Elite division. Sure, Japan had a guaranteed spot from the Asian qualifiers, yet they still were relatively competitive, having close games with teams like Belarus or Denmark. The comparison with Italy is completely uncalled for, they had a decent team.

As for South Korea, they would have 0% chances of having a close match with ANYONE. I mean, come on. They lost to Spain last year and had a 0-6 walkover against Italy. As much as I like seeing them in Div IA (for a year), there's no point in having them in the OG.

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No amount of development is going to help them in only 6 years time, besides what they are already doing. As I said, their best bet to become more competitive would be to naturalize some foreigners as Italy did purely for the Olympics.
Naturalizing foreigners is completely against the Olympic spirit, it's disgusting and makes the whole concept of national teams playing against each other pointless.

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04-25-2012, 10:41 AM
  #28
Faidh ar Rud Eigin
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I would say they're much worse than both of those teams (Japan '98 and Italy '06).

At the time of Nagano and Torino both Japan and Italy were actually playing in the Pool A/Elite division. Sure, Japan had a guaranteed spot from the Asian qualifiers, yet they still were relatively competitive, having close games with teams like Belarus or Denmark. The comparison with Italy is completely uncalled for, they had a decent team.

As for South Korea, they would have 0% chances of having a close match with ANYONE. I mean, come on. They lost to Spain last year and had a 0-6 walkover against Italy. As much as I like seeing them in Div IA (for a year), there's no point in having them in the OG.


Naturalizing foreigners is completely against the Olympic spirit, it's disgusting and makes the whole concept of national teams playing against each other pointless.
They've done it for other sports in the Olympics. Greece 2004 for Baseball is one I can think of right away.

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04-25-2012, 11:32 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
At the time of Nagano and Torino both Japan and Italy were actually playing in the Pool A/Elite division.
Not true, Japan were in Pool C in 1997 after having been relegated the year before. So they were lower in the standings than South Korea is now.

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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
yet they still were relatively competitive, having close games with teams like Belarus or Denmark.
And they didn't even finish bottom in Nagano.

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04-25-2012, 12:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Not true, Japan were in Pool C in 1997 after having been relegated the year before. So they were lower in the standings than South Korea is now.
I'm talking about 1998 though. They qualified for Pool A in the Asian qualification and 2 months after the Olympics they were playing in Pool A.


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And they didn't even finish bottom in Nagano.
Exactly.

Just look at the Korean record. They haven't won a single game against Japan, they're constantly having walkovers against Kazakhstan in the Asian Winter Games. It's a third tier team. What's the point of having them in the Olympics? Do you really want to see scores like 20 or 30:0?

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04-25-2012, 01:01 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I'm talking about 1998 though. They qualified for Pool A in the Asian qualification and 2 months after the Olympics they were playing in Pool A.
The Far East qualification was the only reason they were in Pool A. On the ice, they were very much where South Korea is now.

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What's the point of having them in the Olympics? Do you really want to see scores like 20 or 30:0?
They're the hosts, they're in.

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04-25-2012, 01:19 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The Far East qualification was the only reason they were in Pool A. On the ice, they were very much where South Korea is now.
South Korea has never been where they are now and this time next year they'll already be where they came from - Division 3. If I had time I'd check Korean all-time results against their next year opponents and compare to Japanese to prove you wrong, but I'm too tired now.

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04-25-2012, 01:25 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I would say they're much worse than both of those teams (Japan '98 and Italy '06).

At the time of Nagano and Torino both Japan and Italy were actually playing in the Pool A/Elite division. Sure, Japan had a guaranteed spot from the Asian qualifiers, yet they still were relatively competitive, having close games with teams like Belarus or Denmark. The comparison with Italy is completely uncalled for, they had a decent team.
You don't have to be in the top division to play close games against top division teams. As jekoh said, they were only in the top division because of the requirement that at least one Asian team be in the top division at the time.

And of course Italy had a decent team at the time - because they naturalized foreigners to be eligible for the Olympics. South Korea can do this too.

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As for South Korea, they would have 0% chances of having a close match with ANYONE. I mean, come on. They lost to Spain last year and had a 0-6 walkover against Italy. As much as I like seeing them in Div IA (for a year), there's no point in having them in the OG.
Italy and Japan had no chance of winning a medal either, so why make the rules different for Korea? The point of having them participate is that they are the host nation and the host nation traditionally has an automatic berth.

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Naturalizing foreigners is completely against the Olympic spirit, it's disgusting and makes the whole concept of national teams playing against each other pointless.
Whatever your opinion of it is, it is completely legal and regularly done. It's not "pointless" if a player is willing to go out of his way to become eligible to participate for a national team he identifies with.

If you have citizenship and have played at least 2 years in that country (4 if you played for a different national team previously), you are eligible according to the IIHF. These are actually pretty strict rules compared to most other sports.

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04-25-2012, 04:47 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
You don't have to be in the top division to play close games against top division teams. As jekoh said, they were only in the top division because of the requirement that at least one Asian team be in the top division at the time.
I mentioned the Asian qualification twice already, yes. What is your point though? Have you seen that Japanese team play, have you followed the Korean NT? What makes you think that South Korea isn't worse than Japan?

Just take a look at their record and you'll see that they're worse. I'm not sure what the argument is even about anymore. Korea is still having blowouts against Japan and Italy. What more proof exactly do you want?

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And of course Italy had a decent team at the time - because they naturalized foreigners to be eligible for the Olympics. South Korea can do this too.
Italy had a decent team in the 90s, they had a decent team in the previous decade and they still have a semi-decent team now. The same applies to the Japanese side.


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Italy and Japan had no chance of winning a medal either, so why make the rules different for Korea?
No one's talking about winning medals. Most teams in the competition realistically don't have a chance at winning a medal. What I'm saying is that they have no chance of getting a single point in the tournament. It's like sending a U-18 or a women's team in. They're basically not a part of the competition.

Why shouldn't they be in?

a) it makes their games unwatchable, so the tournament is less interesting overall;
b) it is unfair towards the teams in the other group that would have to play 1 full competitive match more than the teams in the Korean group;
c) it's unfair towards the teams that won't make the tournament (there are chances that teams like Slovakia, Norway, Denmark, Belarus, Latvia, Germany would all have to play a pre-qualification entry tournament and there are only 3 spots available, if the system stays the same until 2018).

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The point of having them participate is that they are the host nation and the host nation traditionally has an automatic berth.
That's another issue. Technically they have an automatic berth and that's another argument, we can argue about that, just don't compare them to Japan or Italy - such comparison is invalid, which is the point I'm trying to make here.


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Whatever your opinion of it is, it is completely legal and regularly done. It's not "pointless" if a player is willing to go out of his way to become eligible to participate for a national team he identifies with.

If you have citizenship and have played at least 2 years in that country (4 if you played for a different national team previously), you are eligible according to the IIHF. These are actually pretty strict rules compared to most other sports.
"He identifies with" are the key words here. Getting some random Canadians is just plain stupid. Let's just send the Canadian B team then and tell them to play with the Korean shirts. Getting players of Korean descent is perfectly fine.

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04-25-2012, 05:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
"He identifies with" are the key words here. Getting some random Canadians is just plain stupid. Let's just send the Canadian B team then and tell them to play with the Korean shirts. Getting players of Korean descent is perfectly fine.
No, it's not perfectly fine. It makes no difference at all if they are of Korean descent or not, they're still foreigners all the same until they get their citizenship and their 2 seasons in the league.

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04-25-2012, 05:38 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I mentioned the Asian qualification twice already, yes. What is your point though? Have you seen that Japanese team play, have you followed the Korean NT? What makes you think that South Korea isn't worse than Japan?
Both Japan and Korea get their players from the Asia League. If you follow the Asia League at all you would know the Korean teams have been getting better and better every year. Yes, while the Japanese teams still dominate, the Korean teams were actually competitive with them this season. Likewise, the Korean national team continues to be more and more competitive and by 2018 I would not be surprised at all if Japan and Korea were of equal strengths - perhaps Korea will even be stronger! It is impossible to know.

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Just take a look at their record and you'll see that they're worse. I'm not sure what the argument is even about anymore. Korea is still having blowouts against Japan and Italy. What more proof exactly do you want?
Records are evidence of how they played in the PAST. We're talking about the present and future here. The Korean national team was barely staying in Div II less than a decade ago, comparable to the likes of China and North Korea. Now we are comparing them to Japan and Italy - what more proof exactly do you want?

Also, taking one game and saying they are always getting blown out is ridiculous. NHL teams get blown out all the time, yet they come right back and win the next time the same teams meet. Teams can have off days. One game is not a good enough example size to determine that Italy is so much superior to South Korea.

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Italy had a decent team in the 90s, they had a decent team in the previous decade and they still have a semi-decent team now. The same applies to the Japanese side.
And I'm not arguing against this at all. I'm saying Korea is getting better, not that those nations are getting worse. Although Italy's team in the Olympics was by far better than what they normally have.

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No one's talking about winning medals. Most teams in the competition realistically don't have a chance at winning a medal. What I'm saying is that they have no chance of getting a single point in the tournament. It's like sending a U-18 or a women's team in. They're basically not a part of the competition.
If most teams don't have a realistic shot, maybe it should only be a 6 team tournament then. The hosts are given automatic entry as a way to promote the game locally through the massive media exposure of the Olympics and provide a connection to the host nation. Asia is a very valuable market with great hockey potential for the IIHF - they would be foolish not to allow Korea to participate.

Quote:
a) it makes their games unwatchable, so the tournament is less interesting overall;
b) it is unfair towards the teams in the other group that would have to play 1 full competitive match more than the teams in the Korean group;
c) it's unfair towards the teams that won't make the tournament (there are chances that teams like Slovakia, Norway, Denmark, Belarus, Latvia, Germany would all have to play a pre-qualification entry tournament and there are only 3 spots available, if the system stays the same until 2018).
I thought the same about Italy before 2006, yet they surprisingly had decent results. Point is, you don't know what their roster will look like. They can naturalize foreigners like Italy did as well.

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That's another issue. Technically they have an automatic berth and that's another argument, we can argue about that, just don't compare them to Japan or Italy - such comparison is invalid, which is the point I'm trying to make here.
And why not? Japan and Korea are now both Div IA nations. Italy might be too after the WC. Your argument is ridiculous.

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"He identifies with" are the key words here. Getting some random Canadians is just plain stupid. Let's just send the Canadian B team then and tell them to play with the Korean shirts. Getting players of Korean descent is perfectly fine.
They can't just grab a bunch of random Canadians, they have to have Korean citizenship, and at least 2 years of play in Korea.

There is nothing about "descent" in the rules.

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04-25-2012, 05:42 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
No, it's not perfectly fine. It makes no difference at all if they are of Korean descent or not, they're still foreigners all the same until they get their citizenship and their 2 seasons in the league.

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04-25-2012, 06:05 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
facepalm.gif
Compelling argument

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04-25-2012, 06:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
The Korean national team was barely staying in Div II less than a decade ago, comparable to the likes of China and North Korea. Now we are comparing them to Japan and Italy - what more proof exactly do you want?
I can compare Korea to Canada just as well. Does that somehow their National team even better? And the only reason that these three countries somehow appeared in the same sentence at all, is because all three got rights to host Olympics.

Though I agree Korea is slowly getting better, they would still be massacred by every Olympic team from the previous tournament. Other nations have too much reserves when it comes to best on best tournaments, it's almost unfair. Even teams that they managed to beat missed several of their best players due to their respective team commitments when Korea used all resources they had at their disposal.

And another thing people are forgetting is the size of Korean players, most of the best hockey playing nations can ice bigger U18 rosters than last Korean WC roster. Just look at those goalies for example.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/team.php?team=4466

In order to be somewhat competative they would need to naturalize a whole roster of players just like Italy did, but Asian league doesn't attract the foreigners Italian league does. It doesn't look well at all.

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04-25-2012, 06:38 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
Likewise, the Korean national team continues to be more and more competitive and by 2018 I would not be surprised at all if Japan and Korea were of equal strengths - perhaps Korea will even be stronger! It is impossible to know.
Sure, they might grow and become better, but they're not, which is why we're talking about the current situation.

To quote you:

"I wouldn't say they are much worse than either of those teams."

Note the "are". Can't see a "will" anywhere.

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Records are evidence of how they played in the PAST. We're talking about the present and future here.
Nope. We don't have a portal to 2018, so the only actual evidence that we can analyze lies in the past.

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The Korean national team was barely staying in Div II less than a decade ago, comparable to the likes of China and North Korea. Now we are comparing them to Japan and Italy - what more proof exactly do you want?
The thing is that we're not comparing them to Japan and Italy. You brought up this ridiculous comparison. Comparing Korea to Italy or Japan is like comparing Canada with Latvia. The difference is very significant, Korea is a level below them and two or three levels below the top teams.

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Also, taking one game and saying they are always getting blown out is ridiculous. NHL teams get blown out all the time, yet they come right back and win the next time the same teams meet. Teams can have off days. One game is not a good enough example size to determine that Italy is so much superior to South Korea.
One game? Look at this then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea_men's_national_ice_hockey_team#All-time_Record_against_other_nations

In the previous Junior WCH the Korean U-20 team lost to countries like Spain, Lithuania and the Netherlands. A year before that they got a blowout loss against Poland and barely beat Australia and Romania. A year before that they had a blowout loss against Great Britain and Hungary and another loss against Spain. That's the future of the Korean hockey. Consistently bad.

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If most teams don't have a realistic shot, maybe it should only be a 6 team tournament then.
Why? It makes the tournament more interesting and there's always a chance for an upset that might hinder the chances of the top 5 teams. Remember Belarus '02?

With South Korea the only chance they have is scoring a goal. Maybe. That would be the upset.

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The hosts are given automatic entry as a way to promote the game locally through the massive media exposure of the Olympics and provide a connection to the host nation. Asia is a very valuable market with great hockey potential for the IIHF - they would be foolish not to allow Korea to participate.
Does a 0-30 loss promote the sport? Who in their right minds would watch a slaughter like that? If I was Korean, it would be absolutely embarassing and shameful.

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I thought the same about Italy before 2006, yet they surprisingly had decent results.
They weren't surprising to anyone who's been following hockey for a long enough time.

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And why not? Japan and Korea are now both Div IA nations. Italy might be too after the WC. Your argument is ridiculous.
Canada and Latvia are both in the Elite division. So they're of similar skill, by your logic. Your comparison is ridiculous.

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They can't just grab a bunch of random Canadians, they have to have Korean citizenship, and at least 2 years of play in Korea.

There is nothing about "descent" in the rules.
No kidding.

I was about to make a comment about autism, but seeing that the both of you didn't get my point I'll rephrase myself - it makes sense for foreign players of Korean descent to play in the Korean national team. It doesn't make sense for a random Canadian player to play a couple of years in the Asian league just for the chance to play on the Olympic ice. It has nothing to do with the rules.

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04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by ozo View Post
I can compare Korea to Canada just as well. Does that somehow their National team even better? And the only reason that these three countries somehow appeared in the same sentence at all, is because all three got rights to host Olympics.
Italy, Japan, and Korea could all be playing in the same group next year. Japan and Korea definitely will be, Italy will probably get relegated too.

Are you saying comparing teams that play in the SAME GROUP is just as ridiculous as comparing Korea and Canada? THAT is ridiculous. Unless you honestly think Canada has a chance of being relegated this year....

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Though I agree Korea is slowly getting better, they would still be massacred by every Olympic team from the previous tournament. Other nations have too much reserves when it comes to best on best tournaments, it's almost unfair. Even teams that they managed to beat missed several of their best players due to their respective team commitments when Korea used all resources they had at their disposal.
And Italy would have been massacred too without all their foreign mercenaries - what's your point? 2018 is a ways away, they could have a roster made up completely of foreign mercenaries by then for all we know.

And what teams/players are you referring to? In Div 1B? I can't think of any players that those teams were missing.

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In order to be somewhat competative they would need to naturalize a whole roster of players just like Italy did, but Asian league doesn't attract the foreigners Italian league does. It doesn't look well at all.
That's because Asia League has stricter import limits - they don't rely on foreigners like Italy does.

However, I don't believe a player with Korean citizenship would count as an import. This is why Zagreb signed all those Canadians. Once they got citizenship in Croatia they no longer counted as imports.

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04-25-2012, 07:09 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
Sure, they might grow and become better, but they're not, which is why we're talking about the current situation.

To quote you:

"I wouldn't say they are much worse than either of those teams."

Note the "are". Can't see a "will" anywhere.
And I don't. If they are going to play in Div 1A next year, against Japan and Italy (most likely), then they are OBVIOUSLY not much worse than either of those teams.

I'm not sure how you can seriously say otherwise. Maybe you aren't familiar with how the IIHF works the World Championships... the divisions are set up by grouping together teams of similar strengths.

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Nope. We don't have a portal to 2018, so the only actual evidence that we can analyze lies in the past.
Which is completely stupid. Korean hockey looks completely different today than it did just 5 years ago. If you want to continue to talk about their past, you are just showing your own ignorance.

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The thing is that we're not comparing them to Japan and Italy. You brought up this ridiculous comparison. Comparing Korea to Italy or Japan is like comparing Canada with Latvia. The difference is very significant, Korea is a level below them and two or three levels below the top teams.
I would not say the difference between Canada and Latvia is that great at all. They both regularly play at the Elite level. Sure, Latvia gets blown out by Canada occasionally, but they are also capable of giving Canada a good game.

Would it be an upset if Latvia beat Canada? Of course, but not an unimaginable one. Likewise, Korea is very capable of giving Japan and Italy a good game - which is why they will play in the same group. They wouldn't be there if they couldn't.

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One game? Look at this then: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea_men's_national_ice_hockey_team#All-time_Record_against_other_nations

In the previous Junior WCH the Korean U-20 team lost to countries like Spain, Lithuania and the Netherlands. A year before that they got a blowout loss against Poland and barely beat Australia and Romania. A year before that they had a blowout loss against Great Britain and Hungary and another loss against Spain. That's the future of the Korean hockey. Consistently bad.
One game that was recent. All other games before that are completely irrelevant to Korea's present standing. Let me know when you get to the year 2012 so we can continue to talk about present situations and not time travel back to when your arguments actually made sense.

Junior hockey also has nothing to do with the real national teams.


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Why? It makes the tournament more interesting and there's always a chance for an upset that might hinder the chances of the top 5 teams. Remember Belarus '02?
Because, according to your logic, seeing the best possible hockey is most important. So let's just cut all the fat and just have the "Big 6" play. Sure, there could be an upset, but that includes Korea/Japan/Italy as well.

All I'm saying is that if Japan and Italy deserve an automatic berth, why not Korea? We're not talking about Mexico or India here, it's South Korea who plays at the same level as Japan and probably Italy will next year.

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Does a 0-30 loss promote the sport? Who in their right minds would watch a slaughter like that? If I was Korean, it would be absolutely embarassing and shameful.
Ignoring your ridiculous scoreline, why would they be embarrassed? I'm sure they would be well aware that they were only there as hosts and would not expect to even win a game. But it still allows them to have a team to cheer for and have a connection to the tournament. Otherwise, why would they care at all? They can at least see their country play against the best players in the world. Losing to the best players in the world is nothing to be ashamed of.

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They weren't surprising to anyone who's been following hockey for a long enough time.
Well, not surprising after they filled their roster with foreign mercenaries.

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Canada and Latvia are both in the Elite division. So they're of similar skill, by your logic. Your comparison is ridiculous.
Then why are Latvia in the Elite division? Like I said, if these teams aren't of comparable skill, then perhaps the Olympics, and WC should just be 6-team tournaments.

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I was about to make a comment about autism, but seeing that the both of you didn't get my point I'll rephrase myself - it makes sense for foreign players of Korean descent to play in the Korean national team. It doesn't make sense for a random Canadian player to play a couple of years in the Asian league just for the chance to play on the Olympic ice. It has nothing to do with the rules.
And I'm saying your opinion doesn't matter - only the rules do.

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04-26-2012, 12:04 AM
  #43
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God almighty.

To boil down your argument:
1) any and each team that has played in the same division with a certain team is by default not significantly worse than that respective team (for instance, Kazakhstan and Canada, South Korea and Italy, Spain and Slovenia and so on), ignoring the fact that even though the IIHF ranking is perfectly incremental, the skill differences between similarly ranked teams can be disproportional (for example, as evidenced by the fact that not 1 team outside of the top 7 has won a medal in the last 59 years);
2) you can't tell how strong a team is by looking at its past results (or, to rephrase, you can't tell how strong a team is at all, because any result is a past result and national teams don't play dozens of matches against the same opponent in a short period of time, meaning the sample size is NEVER large enough).

So, even though there's no justification whatsoever for both of your premises, if someone would say that a team A is much worse than a team B, there would be no way of proving you wrong, according to your little chain of logic here.

So, as all of your statements are logically unfalsifiable and you're clearly the kind of person that is not willing to admit mistakes in your reasoning, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Have a nice day.

Just remember this conversation after a year and during the 2018 OGs.

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04-26-2012, 12:37 AM
  #44
jekoh
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Originally Posted by Namejs View Post
I was about to make a comment about autism, but seeing that the both of you didn't get my point I'll rephrase myself - it makes sense for foreign players of Korean descent to play in the Korean national team. It doesn't make sense for a random Canadian player to play a couple of years in the Asian league just for the chance to play on the Olympic ice. It has nothing to do with the rules.
It makes the exact same "sense" in both cases.

National sports teams shouldn't have anything to do with "descent", and in the case of hockey, they don't.

Italy used to have a team full of NA players that were (supposedly) of Italian descent. That was embarassing. This is exactly what the IIHF aimed at outlawing with its new rules, and righfully so.

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