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Foster Hewitt Divisional Semifinals: Montreal vs. Australia

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Old
04-20-2012, 12:55 PM
  #151
Sturminator
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For ATD purposes (so not a strict HOH-type all-time list), here is how I would rate the relevant centers and goaltenders (the lines break up tiers):

Quote:
Sturm's top-50 ATD centers

1. Wayne Gretzky
----------------
2. Mario Lemieux
----------------
3. Jean Beliveau
----------------
4. Stan Mikita
----------------
5. Howie Morenz
6. Phil Esposito
----------------
7. Bobby Clarke
8. Frank Nighbor
9. Bryan Trottier
10. Mark Messier
11. Cyclone Taylor
12. Joe Sakic
----------------
13. Steve Yzerman
14. Newsy Lalonde
15. Frank Boucher
16. Milt Schmidt
17. Henri Richard
----------------
18. Syl Apps Sr
19. Ted Kennedy
20. Peter Forsberg
----------------
21. Max Bentley
22. Marcel Dionne
23. Joe Malone
24. Sergei Fedorov
25. Norm Ullman
----------------
26. Dave Keon
27. Elmer Lach
28. Sid Abel
29. Doug Gilmour
30. Nels Stewart
----------------
31. Hooley Smith
32. Jean Ratelle
33. Peter Stastny
34. Gilbert Perreault
35. Ron Francis
36. Adam Oates
37. Alex Delvecchio
38. Dale Hawerchuk
39. Denis Savard
40. Mickey Mackay
----------------
41. Bill Cowley
42. Igor Larionov
43. Frank Fredrickson
44. Eric Lindros
45. Joe Thornton
46. Pavel Datsyuk
47. Marty Barry
----------------
48. Sidney Crosby
49. Vladimir Petrov
50. Jacques Lemaire
Quote:
Sturm's top-32 ATD goalies

1. Dominik Hasek
2. Patrick Roy
3. Terry Sawchuk
----------------
4. Jacques Plante
5. Glenn Hall
6. Ken Dryden
----------------
7. Martin Brodeur
----------------
8. Frank Brimsek
9. Vladislav Tretiak
----------------
10. Bernie Parent
11. Johnny Bower
12. Clint Benedict
13. Bill Durnan
14. Georges Vezina
----------------
15. Chuck Gardiner
16. Turk Broda
17. Ed Belfour
----------------
18. Billy Smith
19. Jiri Holecek
20. Grant Fuhr
----------------
21. Tony Esposito
22. Hugh Lehman
----------------
23. Tiny Thompson
24. Roy Worters
25. George Hainesworth
----------------
26. Harry Lumley
27. Gump Worsley
28. Hap Holmes
29. Tom Barrasso
30. Curtis Joseph
----------------
31. Ed Giacomin
32. Rogie Vachon
In absolute terms relative to their respective positions, the gap between Nighbor and Francis is in fact bigger than the gap between Parent and Lumley. But of course more of history's greatest players have played center than goal, so we would expect the list of centers to fall off in talent somewhat more slowly. I've got both sets of players ultimately five tiers apart, and I think the gaps in skill end up being quite similar. This is by no means a definitive analysis, but I think it is a reasonable one, and indicates pretty well generally the rate at which the relevant positions fall off in terms of skill and production.

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04-20-2012, 01:02 PM
  #152
TheDevilMadeMe
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Francis over Delvecchio?

I realize I'm nitpicking but that one strikes me as odd

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04-20-2012, 01:11 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Francis over Delvecchio?

I realize I'm nitpicking but that one strikes me as odd
Delvecchio should not be drafted where he is if he's going to be used as a center, IMO. As a left wing, he is more valuable. Delvecchio's scoring is very Bucyk-like. Lots of good years, no discernable peak as one of the best, and got a lot of help from offensively superior teammates. These types of guys have tended to be overrated in the ATD - though once again, this is my opinion of Delvecchio as a center, not as a wing. Fats was solid defensively, but his reputation isn't that good. I think Francis was probably a bit better defensively and a bit worse offensively. I've got them close, but then others may like Delvecchio as a center more than I do.

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04-20-2012, 01:21 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Delvecchio should not be drafted where he is if he's going to be used as a center, IMO. As a left wing, he is more valuable. Delvecchio's scoring is very Bucyk-like. Lots of good years, no discernable peak as one of the best, and got a lot of help from offensively superior teammates. These types of guys have tended to be overrated in the ATD - though once again, this is my opinion of Delvecchio as a center, not as a wing. Fats was solid defensively, but his reputation isn't that good. I think Francis was probably a bit better defensively and a bit worse offensively. I've got them close, but then others may like Delvecchio as a center more than I do.
Didn't someone figure out last year that Delvecchio only played LW for like 2 years or something?

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04-20-2012, 01:26 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Didn't someone figure out last year that Delvecchio only played LW for like 2 years or something?
Yeah pretty much this is true, however he was a post-season all-star at LW, so I think it's pretty clear he was able to play that position as effectively as center.

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04-20-2012, 03:38 PM
  #156
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I don't mind Francis over Delvecchio.

as far as the two-way guys go (Richard, Ullman, Keon, Lach, Abel, Gilmour, Smith, Francis, Delvecchio), my only concern is the huge gap that exists from Richard to Ullman - it's huge.

Cowley doesn't belong behind the tier of players that he's behind, even in the ATD, not with that peak.

Also, this tier of players has always interested me:

Quote:
32. Jean Ratelle
33. Peter Stastny
34. Gilbert Perreault
35. Ron Francis
36. Adam Oates
37. Alex Delvecchio
38. Dale Hawerchuk
39. Denis Savard
and I think he's basically got them right. Most impressive was placing Statsny down with them. More and more I have noticed he doesn't seem particularly superior to this class in the canonical way that says he's a definite top-100 player and none of them are. I don't think they are, but I no longer think he has a case there, either.

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04-20-2012, 04:22 PM
  #157
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I'm just not a fan of Cowley. I can't quite put my finger on it, but he would seriously have to fall below all of those centers ahead of him for me to draft him.

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04-20-2012, 04:25 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I'm just not a fan of Cowley. I can't quite put my finger on it, but he would seriously have to fall below all of those centers ahead of him for me to draft him.
Cowley is an odd case. He retired as the NHL's all time leading point getter, however he didn't get inducted into the Hall of Fame until 21 years after his retirement. Why?

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04-20-2012, 04:35 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
and I think he's basically got them right. Most impressive was placing Statsny down with them. More and more I have noticed he doesn't seem particularly superior to this class in the canonical way that says he's a definite top-100 player and none of them are. I don't think they are, but I no longer think he has a case there, either.
Really? I was actually really impressed with what I found on Peter Stastny a couple years ago when I had him. Specifically in terms of his grit and willingness to battle. For their NHL careers, he's not too different from Hawerchuk or Savard. But coming from Czechoslovakia at age 24 is definitely something to remember. Hawerchuk had 5 100 point seasons under his belt by that age, and Savard had 3. I think it's pretty safe to say that Peter Stastny would have at least 1,500 career points if he was Peter Smith from Winnipeg instead.

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04-20-2012, 04:44 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Cowley is an odd case. He retired as the NHL's all time leading point getter, however he didn't get inducted into the Hall of Fame until 21 years after his retirement. Why?
I do not know, but I have read a lot of source material from the period of Cowley's career, and he didn't seem to stand out as much as his scoring would indicate. The quote about being 2-for-2 for his career on the backcheck is sort of disturbing, as well, and his softness was well-known. It is also the case that Cowley skated with probably the best second line winger in the league (Roy Conacher) for most of his prime. This was still not an era when teams regularly had strong second lines, and I get the feeling that Cowley and Conacher had something of an advantage in that respect. I've always been a little suspicious of Conacher, as well. Kind of the same deal with him. Very soft (in spite of being big and named Conacher), and not really that well regarded by contemporaries in spite of his scoring exploits.

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04-20-2012, 05:18 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez View Post
Really? I was actually really impressed with what I found on Peter Stastny a couple years ago when I had him. Specifically in terms of his grit and willingness to battle. For their NHL careers, he's not too different from Hawerchuk or Savard. But coming from Czechoslovakia at age 24 is definitely something to remember. Hawerchuk had 5 100 point seasons under his belt by that age, and Savard had 3. I think it's pretty safe to say that Peter Stastny would have at least 1,500 career points if he was Peter Smith from Winnipeg instead.
I'm not big on career totals. But as far as whether Stastny missed out on having one of his very best seasons by not starting until he was 24, I can't say. My gut tells me maybe 1980 would have been his 5th-6th best NHL season.

I agree he's got the grit and battle, and that, coupled with his slight offensive edge, is why he belongs ahead of direct contemporaries Hawerchuk and Savard. But only just ahead. He was also a very lacklustre defensive player.

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04-20-2012, 06:24 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I'm not big on career totals. But as far as whether Stastny missed out on having one of his very best seasons by not starting until he was 24, I can't say. My gut tells me maybe 1980 would have been his 5th-6th best NHL season.
Right, but career totals are a product of having great seasons. Stastny played his rookie year at age 24. Dale Hawerchuk was in his 7th NHL season at age 24. In the span of those 7 seasons, I'd wager Peter Stastny could have had a bunch more big offensive years. And if Stastny cracked the top-10 in scoring 9 times instead of 6, I think that's a pretty notable accomplishment.

*edit*
Just noticed that Peter Stastny is not in this series. My apologies to the GM's of each team for derailing things. Carry on gents.

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04-25-2012, 10:20 AM
  #163
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In 5 games, your winner is Australia.

Well played series by both of you. Congrats to Raptor, good luck next time, BB.

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04-25-2012, 10:30 AM
  #164
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Good series BenchBrawl, I really like the way you went with your team this time around, thanks for the debate.

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04-25-2012, 10:40 AM
  #165
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5 games? lol

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04-25-2012, 10:47 AM
  #166
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yeah, I know this series could have gone either way, but I was shocked by how close it wasn't.

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04-25-2012, 10:50 AM
  #167
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yeah, I know this series could have gone either way, but I was shocked by how close it wasn't.
Good job to you velociraptor. and good luck

I think I'm done with those drafts , losing normally doesn't bother me but this one leaves a bad taste in my mouth with all the effort/hours I put in this draft and the one-sided result.I'll at least take a break from the lower ones.

good luck to the remaining teams!


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-25-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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04-25-2012, 11:35 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
5 games? lol
I'm surprised this one wasn't closer too, although the same could be said for my series.

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04-25-2012, 11:44 AM
  #169
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Good job to you velociraptor. and good luck

I think I'm done with those drafts , losing normally doesn't bother me but this one leaves a bad taste in my mouth with all the effort/hours I put in this draft and the one-sided result.I'll at least take a break from the lower ones.

good luck to the remaining teams!
if you need a break, do it the other way around... we will always have enough ATD GMs to run 32 teams, and we never have enough good ones around in the MLD and beyond.

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04-25-2012, 11:46 AM
  #170
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ATD is the boom-diggity. Stay here Reen!

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04-25-2012, 12:41 PM
  #171
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ATD is the boom-diggity. Stay here Reen!
Agreed, even if I was on the losing side of the series, despite having put a lot of work into my team this year, nothing could come between me and my passion for the drafts

I wouldn't stray away Reen, look at it more like a learning experience about the history of hockey rather than a competitive experience. (this may not be relevant to your thoughts)

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04-25-2012, 12:51 PM
  #172
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Quote:
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Agreed, even if I was on the losing side of the series, despite having put a lot of work into my team this year, nothing could come between me and my passion for the drafts I wouldn't stray away Reen, look at it more like a learning experience about the history of hockey rather than a competitive experience. (this may not be relevant to your thoughts)
Agreed. Also, although I did have a plan, in hindsight it was not a balanced one. I hope to have a more balanced team next time whether I win or not.

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04-25-2012, 02:04 PM
  #173
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Even though I play all fantasy games to win them, the history of hockey is what keeps me interested in this. I used to be all about the GM games and Mock Drafts, but I don't do any of that anymore.

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04-25-2012, 03:05 PM
  #174
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Even though I play all fantasy games to win them, the history of hockey is what keeps me interested in this. I used to be all about the GM games and Mock Drafts, but I don't do any of that anymore.
Absolutely, but my love of the NHL Draft is the reason that I host annual mock drafts, I came across the ATD that way.

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