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04-26-2012, 07:54 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Ennis likely has similiar trade value around the league to Brayden Schenn last year.

I could see the Islanders offering up Josh Bailey or the Preds offering up Colin Wilson in a deal for Staal. And if they weren't in the same division, I could see the Rangers offering up Stepan in a deal for Staal.

And as far as Getzlaf vs Staal goes, I'd rather have Staal.
I'm curious why you would prefer Staal.

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04-26-2012, 08:03 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Ennis likely has similiar trade value around the league to Brayden Schenn last year.

I could see the Islanders offering up Josh Bailey or the Preds offering up Colin Wilson in a deal for Staal. And if they weren't in the same division, I could see the Rangers offering up Stepan in a deal for Staal.

And as far as Getzlaf vs Staal goes, I'd rather have Staal.
Ennis is better and has proven more in the NHL than both Wilson and Bailey.

A package featuring a more proven young talent like Ennis is probably more enticing to PIT than one featuring Bailey or Wilson, who both have been scapegoats at times/in their coach's doghouse for their respective clubs.

Ennis has proven more in the NHL than Schenn. That parallel doesn't make sense to me - Schenn was a top prospect, not a commodity already on the team.

Maybe I'm overvaluing Ennis' trade value and undervaluing Staal's. I don't think I am.

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04-26-2012, 08:07 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm curious why you would prefer Staal.
3 years younger.

Getzlaf having a really bad year this year worries me.

I think Staal's game (next gen Peca/Drury type) fits better with what the Sabres want and need.

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04-26-2012, 08:17 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Loods View Post
Ennis is better and has proven more in the NHL than both Wilson and Bailey.
Really?

92 pts in 140 GP isn't that much better than Wilson's 84pts in 185 GP.

Bailey was rushed to the NHL by the Isles, much like Connolly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loods View Post
A package featuring a more proven young talent like Ennis is probably more enticing to PIT than one featuring Bailey or Wilson, who both have been scapegoats at times/in their coach's doghouse for their respective clubs.

Ennis has proven more in the NHL than Schenn. That parallel doesn't make sense to me - Schenn was a top prospect, not a commodity already on the team.

Maybe I'm overvaluing Ennis' trade value and undervaluing Staal's. I don't think I am.
Ennis is on the uptick, but I doubt many around the league view Ennis as a "proven NHLer" like the Sabres do.

Ennis finished this season with 29 pts in 30gp. But, he only had 5pts in his first 18 GP this season.

Another factor is all around game and size. Ennis is undersized and that will depress his trade value a bit in the eyes of a lot of GMs. Just look at the Kassian for Hodgson deal as an example of size being an asset when trades happen.

Ennis has upside and a ton of offensive talent. But, I do believe you are valuing him more than people outside of Buffalo do.

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04-26-2012, 08:18 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Fatal System Ehrhoff View Post
All things considered, acquiring Jordan Staal is probably the biggest move that the Sabres could realistically bring about this offseason short of dropping Pegulabux on Parise or Suter (IF things are as the tea leaves seem to suggest). The question, then, is what it would take in order to snatch him from the Pens, and what role would he play upon arrival. Can he realistically be a #1C for this franchise? Is he worth the cost? Would he re-sign here?

Have at it.


e: The main idea in making this thread is to avoid a potential echo chamber in the other. Staal's a big deal but he could become Roy4Hanzal2.0
The Buffalo Sabres aren't acquiring Jordan Staal.
I wish people would give it up already.
They have their 1st and 2nd line centers in Ennis and Hodgson.
Staal isn't coming to Buffalo to play the 3rd line role again.

Just give it up people, it's not remotely close to reality.

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04-26-2012, 08:22 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
The Buffalo Sabres aren't acquiring Jordan Staal.
I wish people would give it up already.
They have their 1st and 2nd line centers in Ennis and Hodgson.
Staal isn't coming to Buffalo to play the 3rd line role again.

Just give it up people, it's not remotely close to reality.
Was Chris Drury a 3rd line center in Buffalo?

That is the type of role that Staal would play in Buffalo.

It would be a 1a, 1b, 1c situation with Staal potentially playing with Pominville and Leino as a shutdown line with offensive abilities.

It wouldn't be the same as the situation he has in Pittsburgh.

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04-26-2012, 08:25 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Given the hint that the three center model may no longer be Shero's plan at his season ending PC.... Staal. Staal-Ennis-Hodgson is a pretty dynamic trio down the middle.
So chain, Staal wants a larger role, that is why he want's out of Pittsburg.
Hodgson was the same with Vancouver.

Do you actually believe they would make Ennis the 3rd line center and give Staal and Hodgson the 1st and 2nd roles?

The Staal idea is just a pipedream I'm afraid. There is no reason to believe the Sabres, who are trying to build a class organization and have publicly stated they like Ennis at center, would put Staal and Hodgson in that position.

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04-26-2012, 08:29 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Was Chris Drury a 3rd line center in Buffalo?

That is the type of role that Staal would play in Buffalo.

It would be a 1a, 1b, 1c situation with Staal potentially playing with Pominville and Leino as a shutdown line with offensive abilities.

It wouldn't be the same as the situation he has in Pittsburgh.

I disagree with you strongly.

You put Staal right back in the same position as he was in Pittsburg, and if not him, then Hodgeson. Either way, that is the exact opposite of building a class organization.

You cannot seriously believe either Hodgeson, or Staal, would be happy playing on a diminished talent line in the "1c" as you call it (although it's still the 3rd line, no matter what how you try and spin it), role and be happy coming to Buffalo, do you?

If that is the case,

The reality is both Hodgson and Staal want line 1 or 2 role's, not a 1c role, where they've already played.

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04-26-2012, 08:33 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by static80 View Post
I disagree with you strongly.

You put Staal right back in the same position as he was in Pittsburg, and if not him, then Hodgeson. Either way, that is the exact opposite of building a class organization.

You cannot seriously believe either Hodgeson, or Staal, would be happy playing on a diminished talent line in the "1c" as you call it (although it's still the 3rd line, no matter what how you try and spin it), role and be happy coming to Buffalo, do you?

If that is the case,

The reality is both Hodgson and Staal want line 1 or 2 role's, not a 1c role, where they've already played.
Exactly this. If we could get something for Roy, i would be happy because we could go out and get Stoll for the 3rd line. If we can't trade Roy, I'd be happy.

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04-26-2012, 08:39 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by static80 View Post
I disagree with you strongly.

You put Staal right back in the same position as he was in Pittsburg, and if not him, then Hodgeson. Either way, that is the exact opposite of building a class organization.

You cannot seriously believe either Hodgeson, or Staal, would be happy playing on a diminished talent line in the "1c" as you call it (although it's still the 3rd line, no matter what how you try and spin it), role and be happy coming to Buffalo, do you?

If that is the case,

The reality is both Hodgson and Staal want line 1 or 2 role's, not a 1c role, where they've already played.
I strongly disagree that building a "class organization" necessitates you play guys as much as they would like to be played in their wet dreams. Class has a lot to do with how you treat players, but refusing to acquire depth at any position so that you can play your marginal stars as much as they want to play has nothing to do with it, and it's anathema to winning, which is a hell of a lot more important to players.

Pittsburgh and Vancouver are both class organizations. They just happened to have an abundance of talent up the middle, and Buffalo would do well to emulate.

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04-26-2012, 08:40 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
I disagree with you strongly.

You put Staal right back in the same position as he was in Pittsburg, and if not him, then Hodgeson. Either way, that is the exact opposite of building a class organization.

You cannot seriously believe either Hodgeson, or Staal, would be happy playing on a diminished talent line in the "1c" as you call it (although it's still the 3rd line, no matter what how you try and spin it), role and be happy coming to Buffalo, do you?

If that is the case,

The reality is both Hodgson and Staal want line 1 or 2 role's, not a 1c role, where they've already played.
The problem is you're considering Hodgson and Ennis to be top 2 centers. They aren't. You can make the claim that Hodgson is a second line center, which is fine, but Ennis isn't a top line center, at least not yet. Going into the season thinking he's going to be a top line center is just a huge mistake. The team needs an actual top line center next season, and neither Hodgson or Ennis is it.

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04-26-2012, 08:43 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by static80 View Post
So chain, Staal wants a larger role, that is why he want's out of Pittsburg.
Hodgson was the same with Vancouver.

Do you actually believe they would make Ennis the 3rd line center and give Staal and Hodgson the 1st and 2nd roles?

The Staal idea is just a pipedream I'm afraid. There is no reason to believe the Sabres, who are trying to build a class organization and have publicly stated they like Ennis at center, would put Staal and Hodgson in that position.
I think one of them, either Hodgson or Ennis, gets the cake offensive zone starts akin to what Ennis was getting down the stretch with Buffalo or Hodgson got in his rookie-of-the-month stretch in Vancouver. They get the V-R-S type of "easy" minutes which will help drive their production offensively since they've both shown they can produce in that situation.

In this scenario, Staal gets first PK, first PP, and regular ES minutes, slotting in as likely top ToI guy. Ennis/Hodgson split 2/3 and one of them gets the nightly perk of catching teams third pairing. Staal has an expanded role, Hodgson has an expanded role.... win-win.

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04-26-2012, 08:45 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by haseoke39 View Post
I strongly disagree that building a "class organization" necessitates you play guys as much as they would like to be played in their wet dreams. Class has a lot to do with how you treat players, but refusing to acquire depth at any position so that you can play your marginal stars as much as they want to play has nothing to do with it, and its anathema to winning, which is a hell of a lot more important to players.
You completely failed to take into consideration the very reason both Staal and Hodgson alike, would or already have excepted the move. Which is their desire to compete in a role that was or is above the roles they have or do now play.

If Ennis was going back to wing, then I can see where "maybe", bringing Jordan Staal in would be something to consider. But the truth is I don't see the organization removing Ennis from the center position, at least, not until they are forced to.

That leaves 3 centers, and Ennis's line is most likely considered the 1 or 2 line, which means they would most likely see the critical situation minutes more often than a 3rd line.

We acquire Staal, and either Staal or Hodgson have to field the center position on a diminished talent line, or 3rd line. Both of these players desire to be impact players, not to stay in the respective roles they have or currently now do play.

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04-26-2012, 08:46 AM
  #64
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He would be a great fit with the Sabres. I'm on board.

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04-26-2012, 08:46 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Was Chris Drury a 3rd line center in Buffalo?

That is the type of role that Staal would play in Buffalo.

It would be a 1a, 1b, 1c situation with Staal potentially playing with Pominville and Leino as a shutdown line with offensive abilities.

It wouldn't be the same as the situation he has in Pittsburgh.
I agree
if we acquired Staal:

Leino-Staal-Pominville = 1A line, 20+ minutes a game easily. Staal would see 1st PP minutes, and high PK minutes. He would get the MOST ES ice time of any player. He would be a 1a center, counted on for offensive production AND lock down shifts (d zone draws, ciritical minutes, etc...) Just because you use a top center defensively, does not mean he's not a #1 center... Datsyuk, Bergeron, Toews, etc

Vanek-Hodgson-XXXX = This is my 1B line, or 2nd line, whatever you want to call it. Hodgson and Vanek were just scratching the surface, and I think they have potential... I also want a banger for this line, whether its Tropp, or an acquisition or signing...

Foligno-Ennis-Stafford = This is the Vanek-Roy line from the co caps days, they are going to see weaker matchups and exploit the **** of it (in case you didn't notice, that's exactly what was happening down the stretch)

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04-26-2012, 08:48 AM
  #66
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If there was a guarantee we could sign him after next season I would be willing to give up more. I don't think the Sabres are a Jordan Staal away from the Stanley Cup.

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04-26-2012, 08:48 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
I think one of them, either Hodgson or Ennis, gets the cake offensive zone starts akin to what Ennis was getting down the stretch with Buffalo or Hodgson got in his rookie-of-the-month stretch in Vancouver. They get the V-R-S type of "easy" minutes which will help drive their production offensively since they've both shown they can produce in that situation.

In this scenario, Staal gets first PK, first PP, and regular ES minutes, slotting in as likely top ToI guy. Ennis/Hodgson split 2/3 and one of them gets the nightly perk of catching teams third pairing. Staal has an expanded role, Hodgson has an expanded role.... win-win.
I feel this FACT, has been completely lost on the "ZOMG, Ennis is untouchable!!! He's going to score 80 bagillion points!!!! He's our #1 center!!!!" crowd...

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04-26-2012, 08:49 AM
  #68
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Severe under-valuing of Vanek and Roy is happening here.

If anyone thinks the Sabres need to add to Vanek to get Staal you are wrong. Vanek was better than a ppg player half way through the season before getting injuried (without elite winger minutes).

Why are people even throwing Armia away? The Sabres stole him in the draft last year and I'd rather wait and see how he develops than grab a 3rd line center that seems to get treated like a 1st line center on this board.

Going forward to next year with Ennis, Hodgson and Roy is a nice 1-2-3 punch.
Kind of hard to say hes a third line center, which technically he is, but hes third behind arguably the two best players/Centers players in the league.

Roy, Hodgson, and Ennis I don't think make a very good 1-2-3 punch. Out of those three who are you going to throw out there for faceoffs at the end of the game? I dont think Cody and Tyler have proven they can handle the center position for a full year(Maybe Cody has). I think Roy needs to go to a more run and gun kind of team. I don't think we are that team anymore.

I think adding Staal, you get a reliable center with size and better defensive abilities than Roy. I think he would be a better fit than any of the other centers that are "AVAILABLE"

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04-26-2012, 08:53 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
I think one of them, either Hodgson or Ennis, gets the cake offensive zone starts akin to what Ennis was getting down the stretch with Buffalo or Hodgson got in his rookie-of-the-month stretch in Vancouver. They get the V-R-S type of "easy" minutes which will help drive their production offensively since they've both shown they can produce in that situation.

In this scenario, Staal gets first PK, first PP, and regular ES minutes, slotting in as likely top ToI guy. Ennis/Hodgson split 2/3 and one of them gets the nightly perk of catching teams third pairing. Staal has an expanded role, Hodgson has an expanded role.... win-win.
It sounds good, but you need the talent around you on the wings to make it happen, and at ES, it just isn't there in Buffalo yet.

And I'm not opposed to going after a true #1 center, but I'm in the mindset of Regier, a big bodied center is what we'd be looking for. Specifically for the 3rd line role.

I don't see Buffalo making a significant trade to move up this draft, nor do I expect them to harness a true number 1 center, barring the possibility of Malkin (which one can dream, can't we).

But I see Regier using 1, maybe 2 of those picks and picking with the other 2, or perhaps 3.

Regier stated they were looking for a big bodied center, I believe there is a very good possibility Vanek get's moved this off season. I'm not totally sold, but the lack of production, injuries or not, from a secondary scoring threat on somewhat of a consistent basis should drive the focus of management to not only acquire that big bodies center, but also the winger piece(s) to achieve a true 2nd line scoring threat.

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04-26-2012, 08:54 AM
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Kind of hard to say hes a third line center, which technically he is, but hes third behind arguably the two best players/Centers players in the league.

Roy, Hodgson, and Ennis I don't think make a very good 1-2-3 punch. Out of those three who are you going to throw out there for faceoffs at the end of the game? I dont think Cody and Tyler have proven they can handle the center position for a full year(Maybe Cody has). I think Roy needs to go to a more run and gun kind of team. I don't think we are that team anymore.

I think adding Staal, you get a reliable center with size and better defensive abilities than Roy. I think he would be a better fit than any of the other centers that are "AVAILABLE"
I've watched Staal play hundreds of games and he's not a #1 center. SOLID #2, elite #3, but not a #1. Look no further than what he did with Sid and Geno out of the lineup last year, he even had Neal on his wing. So my point is, don't give up what you would for a solid #1 center, that would be overpaying.

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04-26-2012, 08:54 AM
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Sabres are not going to get Jordan Staal. E4.

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04-26-2012, 08:56 AM
  #72
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I feel this FACT, has been completely lost on the "ZOMG, Ennis is untouchable!!! He's going to score 80 bagillion points!!!! He's our #1 center!!!!" crowd...
Well, you are correct, I'd move Ennis for the right deal, absolutely.
Unfortunately, due to the success we saw in the stretch run of the season, I don't believe the organization would.

But, I like the thinking here. Ennis would be a very nice piece to potentially bringing in talent that could make the club more competitive.

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04-26-2012, 08:58 AM
  #73
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I agree
if we acquired Staal:

Leino-Staal-Pominville = 1A line, 20+ minutes a game easily. Staal would see 1st PP minutes, and high PK minutes. He would get the MOST ES ice time of any player. He would be a 1a center, counted on for offensive production AND lock down shifts (d zone draws, ciritical minutes, etc...) Just because you use a top center defensively, does not mean he's not a #1 center... Datsyuk, Bergeron, Toews, etc

Vanek-Hodgson-XXXX = This is my 1B line, or 2nd line, whatever you want to call it. Hodgson and Vanek were just scratching the surface, and I think they have potential... I also want a banger for this line, whether its Tropp, or an acquisition or signing...

Foligno-Ennis-Stafford = This is the Vanek-Roy line from the co caps days, they are going to see weaker matchups and exploit the **** of it (in case you didn't notice, that's exactly what was happening down the stretch)
Be careful what you wish for.

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04-26-2012, 09:05 AM
  #74
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If Shero demands that kind of package from any team, he won't be trading Staal - no team will give a package like that up.

They would demand Sekera, I'm sure. I'd give up Armia without hesitation (and I could see them being very, very interested in Joel) and the 2012 1st is certainly in play. They may ask Ennis - or a player similar to him from other teams - but he won't be getting (Ennis).

I agree that the Roy + proposals hold very little weight. I could see them being interested in Roy as a transitional/stopgap/placeholding center, but certainly not as a centerpiece of the deal.
You're overvaluing Ennis because of his strong finish. It seems many have Little Tyler penciled in for 70 pts next year from the center position. I think people are getting ahead of themselves over a 30-game stretch.

I was looking at the Carter trade as a comparable for Staal. Can we agree that Staal has at least that much value? Buffalo has to give up a pick in the top-half of the first round (but 8th pick > 12th pick, especially in a down draft year), a young player with upside (I think Ennis has a tad more value than Voracek did), and something else. Perhaps we can make Sekera a 2nd rounder instead, and take off the 2nd rounder I had coming to us from PIT.

Thus, Ennis + 12th pick + 42nd pick for Staal. That's a fair deal (unless, of course, you think Tyler Ennis is going to be a 70-pt player for the foreseeable future). Staal is the type of two-way player this team needs, and he's a natural center.

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Seriously?

I'd take Staal over Carter or Richards and look at the packages those two netted the Flyers last summer.

If the Pens put Staal on the trading block, the bidding is going to get crazy.
Precisely.

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The bidding will be high. But most centerpieces will be in the form of top prospects and picks.

I don't think any team will give up an Ennis-type player in a package for Staal. I'm typically not one to cite points as a barometer of the quality of a player, but Ennis' career-high in points, 49 as a rookie, is one less than Staal's (50 - in an injury-shortened season).

The intangibles/d play that he brings increases his trade value, but no team will give up a proven NHL talent in Ennis (who very possibly could outscore Staal annually) as a centerpiece unless it's a one-for-one swap or that team adds little. Sekera and a first isn't little. That's a package teams put together for Getzlaf, not Jordan Staal.
You're overvaluing Ennis again. His numbers are only slightly better than Voracek's were when he was dealt along with the 8th pick and a 2nd rounder for Carter, a great regular season player who'd historically flopped in the playoffs. If you don't want to offer Ennis, fine, but I don't think you should expect to get Staal if that's the case.

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Ennis likely has similiar trade value around the league to Brayden Schenn last year.

I could see the Islanders offering up Josh Bailey or the Preds offering up Colin Wilson in a deal for Staal. And if they weren't in the same division, I could see the Rangers offering up Stepan in a deal for Staal.

And as far as Getzlaf vs Staal goes, I'd rather have Staal.
Not sure I'd even go that far. Like it or not, super-prospects like Schenn--and he was widely considered the #1 prospect in hockey when he was traded--have even greater value than solid young roster players like Ennis. Part of that is upside, part of that is more years of team control. Not to mention Schenn's value is increased because of his size and he's a natural center.

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04-26-2012, 09:06 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
I feel this FACT, has been completely lost on the "ZOMG, Ennis is untouchable!!! He's going to score 80 bagillion points!!!! He's our #1 center!!!!" crowd...
I don't mind having one of Hodgson or Ennis catch easier competition on a given night. If they role with what they have, Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp gives them a strong low-cycle game and in-tight finish. Foligno-Ennis-Stafford gives them some of that but a lot of transition game chances. XXXX-Staal-Pominville would be an interesting duo and if the XXXX is Leino, a lot of puck possession to go along with very good defense out of 2/3rds of that line. Pominville seems like the ideal winger for someone like Staal -- they can go out and play a simple, sound game and put up more points than their checking assignment.

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