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04-23-2012, 12:54 PM
  #126
Jarick
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A good, thorough take on the Front vs Back Squats debate:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4

What I'm seeing quite a bit from reading these articles are the recommendation FOR ATHLETES (not powerlifters or bodybuilders) to use the front squat over the back squat.

Most of these trainers (again for pro athletes) incorporate SOME single-leg training but primarily use 2-leg training.

I'm thinking a very thorough lower-body training program FOR HOCKEY PLAYERS could consist of just four exercises:

- Barbell Front Squat
- Single-Leg Squat (either RFE or true single-leg on a box)
- Trap Bar Deadlift
- One-Leg One-Arm Deadlift

What I like about this is that it can easily be altered to use dumbbells or kettlebells, albeit without as much benefit and harder to progress with microloading.

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04-23-2012, 08:44 PM
  #127
ConoR187
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anyone have trouble deadlifting or squatting after you play hockey and are sore?

i took a spill 2 days ago in a game and my left glute is all sore but i tried squatting today and it wasnt painful but i couldnt really get as much as i wanted out of it.. what do?

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04-24-2012, 09:01 AM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConoR187 View Post
anyone have trouble deadlifting or squatting after you play hockey and are sore?

i took a spill 2 days ago in a game and my left glute is all sore but i tried squatting today and it wasnt painful but i couldnt really get as much as i wanted out of it.. what do?
Depending on how my games are scheduled (1 or 2 a week). I try to do legs about 3 days before a game. You should be hitting those muscles hard and since they are the biggest muscle they should be killing you for about 3-4 days after. Doing squats right after a hockey game shouldn't be too bad assuming your legs aren't burning after from the lactic acid. I usually do em a day after cause I'm exhausting after a game.

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04-24-2012, 09:05 AM
  #129
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To everyone I believe you should only be doing legs once a week. If you want to build muscle in your leg/core it should be 1 heavy/intense workout. They should take 3 days to recover if they don't hurt the following day you didn't work hard enough.

My leg day consists of.

4 sets squats (each set add more and more weight your last set you should only be able to pump out around 6-7 reps). First set you should get 12 then 10,8,6 etc I usually do a cooldown set after of light weight x12

4 sets of deadlifts same format as above
(don't arch your back at the end of each rep)
4 sets of leg press same format as above

4 sets of calf raises x 12 of same weight

4 sets of leg extensions

that usually does it for me.

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04-24-2012, 09:52 AM
  #130
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Does anybody have tips on how to increase squat depth?

As it is right now I can barely make it to parallel, let alone ATG. If I had to eyeball it I'd say I have a 60-70 degree flex in the knee. I find that if I do too many squats like this I start getting a sharp pain in my right knee that is often exacerbated by walking *down* stairs (but not up and around... even riding a bike doesn't hurt), so I've been doing wall sits to compensate for the time being.

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04-24-2012, 10:17 AM
  #131
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Jorb I kind of came to the same conclusion.

As a true beginner I've been able to increase my squat weight 10 pounds 3x a week (30 pounds per week) for about a month until I hit the wall.

But now I believe I'll be cutting back to a schedule of something like:

Legs:
Front Squats
High Pulls
Deadlifts

Upper:
Bench Press
OH Press
Rows

Alternate the workouts so you only do legs 3x every two weeks.

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04-24-2012, 10:22 AM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noobman View Post
Does anybody have tips on how to increase squat depth?

As it is right now I can barely make it to parallel, let alone ATG. If I had to eyeball it I'd say I have a 60-70 degree flex in the knee. I find that if I do too many squats like this I start getting a sharp pain in my right knee that is often exacerbated by walking *down* stairs (but not up and around... even riding a bike doesn't hurt), so I've been doing wall sits to compensate for the time being.
I've had knee pains if I don't have a wide enough stance or keep my knees pushed out while squatting.

Watching videos of Eric Cressey and Mike Boyle, hockey players tend to have poor hip mobility, and we'd benefit from exercises to improve that, but for squats taking a wider stance might help.

I know when I first started squatting, I tried the regular stance and I just couldn't get low without losing balance. Getting a wider stance, and also pointing the toes out, seemed to help.

I think some people might have their toes pointing forward too much, which causes the knees to turn inwards. You want them pointing in the direction of the thighs to open up the hips, so you can get down.

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04-24-2012, 12:09 PM
  #133
Lonny Bohonos
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I think Goblet Squats are supposed to help with flexibility in the hips.

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04-24-2012, 12:42 PM
  #134
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Gave in finally and picked up Boyle's Advances in Functional Training. Should be a good read.

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04-24-2012, 02:11 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Gave in finally and picked up Boyle's Advances in Functional Training. Should be a good read.
Should just pick up the Twist DVD a poster mentioned earlier and does what he recommends. He is kinda well-known for hockey conditioning...

On backsquats/frontsquats. Do both. I posted a couple different routines, both of which include both back and front squats. I do low bar back squats and front squats on the same day. Throw in a few sets of RE Split Squats with dumbells/kettlebells and you have my Squat workout on Mondays. Second leg workout is on Thursdays: Cleans, Sumo deadlift, good mornings.

2 leg workouts a week + plyos. I am never sore (FOOD + FISHOIL + SLEEP) and play recreational sports 2-4x a week.

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04-24-2012, 02:24 PM
  #136
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I looked at it but it was mostly on-ice drills and had about 15 pages of actual workout content, mostly pictures of common exercises..

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04-24-2012, 02:46 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorbjorb View Post
Depending on how my games are scheduled (1 or 2 a week). I try to do legs about 3 days before a game. You should be hitting those muscles hard and since they are the biggest muscle they should be killing you for about 3-4 days after. Doing squats right after a hockey game shouldn't be too bad assuming your legs aren't burning after from the lactic acid. I usually do em a day after cause I'm exhausting after a game.
nonono im talking more like falling in a game and basically bruising your ass lol then doing squats like 2 days after.. it sucks if that happens because i cant squat as much

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04-24-2012, 02:56 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
I looked at it but it was mostly on-ice drills and had about 15 pages of actual workout content, mostly pictures of common exercises..
There is probably equal amounts of on ice and dry land in the book.

Most of the exercises are not "common" at all.

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04-24-2012, 11:16 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorbjorb View Post
To everyone I believe you should only be doing legs once a week. If you want to build muscle in your leg/core it should be 1 heavy/intense workout. They should take 3 days to recover if they don't hurt the following day you didn't work hard enough.

My leg day consists of.

4 sets squats (each set add more and more weight your last set you should only be able to pump out around 6-7 reps). First set you should get 12 then 10,8,6 etc I usually do a cooldown set after of light weight x12

4 sets of deadlifts same format as above
(don't arch your back at the end of each rep)
4 sets of leg press same format as above

4 sets of calf raises x 12 of same weight

4 sets of leg extensions

that usually does it for me.
That looks fine if you want to be a bodybuilder but if you want to build strength do sets with fewer reps and squat multiple times a week. Plus lose the machine exercises.

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04-24-2012, 11:17 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noobman View Post
Does anybody have tips on how to increase squat depth?

As it is right now I can barely make it to parallel, let alone ATG. If I had to eyeball it I'd say I have a 60-70 degree flex in the knee. I find that if I do too many squats like this I start getting a sharp pain in my right knee that is often exacerbated by walking *down* stairs (but not up and around... even riding a bike doesn't hurt), so I've been doing wall sits to compensate for the time being.
Be sure to shove your knees out on descent. None of the halfsquatters I see at the gym do that.

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04-25-2012, 11:54 AM
  #141
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And reading the Mike Boyle book, that's pretty much what he was saying about knee pain during squats. Shove the knees out to help activate the glutes in the exercise.

Also go down in weight by 50-100 pounds then work your way back up when the form is solid. He mentions that most 500lb guys who don't break parallel drop to 400 when they do.

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04-25-2012, 12:28 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorbjorb View Post
To everyone I believe you should only be doing legs once a week. If you want to build muscle in your leg/core it should be 1 heavy/intense workout. They should take 3 days to recover if they don't hurt the following day you didn't work hard enough.

My leg day consists of.

4 sets squats (each set add more and more weight your last set you should only be able to pump out around 6-7 reps). First set you should get 12 then 10,8,6 etc I usually do a cooldown set after of light weight x12

4 sets of deadlifts same format as above
(don't arch your back at the end of each rep)
4 sets of leg press same format as above

4 sets of calf raises x 12 of same weight

4 sets of leg extensions

that usually does it for me.
Why leg press and leg extensions....?

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04-25-2012, 12:34 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by mug25 View Post
Why leg press and leg extensions....?
Just an extra tear in my legs. They really aren't needed.

I do some light sets on the leg extensions to tone the quads a bit
more of an isolation on the quads

Squats are an upper and lower body workout.

I do the leg presses to focus more on the leg part of it.

It works for me but most people leave them out or do one or the other

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04-25-2012, 12:37 PM
  #144
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I'm doing my own thing now since i'm not really a full time athlete
but when I played hockey a bunch in high school I use to do this program in the off season.

It's something to look at!

http://www.defrancostraining.com/art...***-part1.html

Nice thing about it is that it gives you the option to switch up multiple excercises.

It's nice to switch things up every week or two and confuse your body


Last edited by jorbjorb: 04-25-2012 at 12:40 PM. Reason: addition
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04-25-2012, 01:13 PM
  #145
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My revised routine that I'm starting tonight.

1. Isometric Deadlift
2. Single Leg BB Squat
3. Front BB Squat
4. BB Deadlift
5. BB Lunges

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04-26-2012, 10:18 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jorbjorb View Post
I'm doing my own thing now since i'm not really a full time athlete
but when I played hockey a bunch in high school I use to do this program in the off season.

It's something to look at!

http://www.defrancostraining.com/art...***-part1.html

Nice thing about it is that it gives you the option to switch up multiple excercises.

It's nice to switch things up every week or two and confuse your body
True Story: I posted the much more inclusive version three in PDF a ways back. I fully endorse it as a program; however, I understand that some people are intimidated by having to pick out their own exercises. I also realize that many people are motivated by the visible progress of linear progression.

Here it is again

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04-26-2012, 10:36 AM
  #147
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Last Friday hit 195 on the back squat for 2 sets of 5, then just hit the wall and couldn't go any more. Napped for 2 hours right afterwards. Throughout the weekend had a sore low back and left knee felt loose all weekend, just unnatural.

Took Monday off, then yesterday I did some more basic exercises. Did ATG bodyweight squats, tried front squats with a bar focusing on perfect form, did some SLSL deadlifts with an arm behind the back (per Gray Cook, to focus on keeping it straight), split squats, and single-leg squats (more half squats as I just wanted to see the motion).

I will say my hamstrings were a lot more sore than ever before, and my quads got hit pretty good too. Not enough in the glutes which I believe is due to lack of balance on the deadlifts (didn't do any regular deadlifts but will next time). There was no pain or stress in the lower back. Don't know if that is good or bad. But I'm guessing it all means I've been adding weight to really bad form and getting pain instead of good muscle soreness.

For upper body today I'm going to add rows and pullups to try and strengthen my right shoulder. I got hit with my arms out a couple years ago and has been on and off bugging me. Sounds like a fair amount of pulling work might help strengthen it. I'm also thinking of switching to incline pushups for the time being as it just keeps getting aggravated with the bench press.

It'd be nice if I could find a straightforward program but most of the guys I'm looking at (Boyle, Cressey, Neeld) seem to just have infomercial websites. So I'm going to try and get my hands on that Peter Twist book as I think a buddy has a copy (no e-copies available and none at the used book store yesterday). And take another look at the Westside workout. I'd like to split the difference between a strength program and functional program and definitely need to work on my form before adding weights.

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04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Last Friday hit 195 on the back squat for 2 sets of 5, then just hit the wall and couldn't go any more. Napped for 2 hours right afterwards. Throughout the weekend had a sore low back and left knee felt loose all weekend, just unnatural.

Took Monday off, then yesterday I did some more basic exercises. Did ATG bodyweight squats, tried front squats with a bar focusing on perfect form, did some SLSL deadlifts with an arm behind the back (per Gray Cook, to focus on keeping it straight), split squats, and single-leg squats (more half squats as I just wanted to see the motion).

I will say my hamstrings were a lot more sore than ever before, and my quads got hit pretty good too. Not enough in the glutes which I believe is due to lack of balance on the deadlifts (didn't do any regular deadlifts but will next time). There was no pain or stress in the lower back. Don't know if that is good or bad. But I'm guessing it all means I've been adding weight to really bad form and getting pain instead of good muscle soreness.

For upper body today I'm going to add rows and pullups to try and strengthen my right shoulder. I got hit with my arms out a couple years ago and has been on and off bugging me. Sounds like a fair amount of pulling work might help strengthen it. I'm also thinking of switching to incline pushups for the time being as it just keeps getting aggravated with the bench press.

It'd be nice if I could find a straightforward program but most of the guys I'm looking at (Boyle, Cressey, Neeld) seem to just have infomercial websites. So I'm going to try and get my hands on that Peter Twist book as I think a buddy has a copy (no e-copies available and none at the used book store yesterday). And take another look at the Westside workout. I'd like to split the difference between a strength program and functional program and definitely need to work on my form before adding weights.
What's your height and weight if you don't mind me asking?

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04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #149
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Originally Posted by BaconStrips View Post
True Story: I posted the much more inclusive version three in PDF a ways back. I fully endorse it as a program; however, I understand that some people are intimidated by having to pick out their own exercises. I also realize that many people are motivated by the visible progress of linear progression.

Here it is again
Right on man me like!

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04-26-2012, 11:00 AM
  #150
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If anyone is interested, here is a website run by the guys at the U of MN

http://www.xlathlete.com/index.jsp

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