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Old
04-26-2012, 01:24 PM
  #101
static80
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Originally Posted by ADoubleD View Post
You do realize how ridiculous the argument that Staal would be in the same situation here that he is in Pittsburgh right? I didn't know that Tyler Ennis and Cody Hodgson were equal to Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

Staal would have a legit chance at competing for the Sabres' number one center spot. He does not even have a remote shot at it on the Pens. There's no way he should get more ice time than Crosby or Malkin. You can definitely make the argument that he could/should get more ice time than Hodgson and Ennis. He would have a real shot at competing with those two for the top center spot. The situation Staal would be in here is nothing like the one he is in in Pittsburgh.

The same thing applies for Hodgson. Tyler Ennis and Jordan Staal are definitely not equal to Henrik Sedin and Ryan Kesler. Hodgson has a shot at competing for one of the top two center spots here that he would never get with those two ahead of him in Vancouver.

That's the huge difference between Hodgson and Staal's situations here and with their former teams. Here they can compete for a top six center spot, on their old teams they could not.
We don't know what your stating as to be "fact". It's opinion.
What we do know factually, is that both Cody Hodgson and Jordan Staal would like increased ice time and a more pivotal role for their position.

Tyler Ennis could go back to LW if both Staal and Hodgson perform to par for the 1 and 2 center positions, my opinion is that the organization isn't going that route.
They've openly stated they were surprised at Ennis ability at center, and they took note of the chemistry created between Foligno, Stafford and Ennis.

I'm guessing now, but I don't believe Buffalo would be the right fit for Staal, I believe Buffalo is more of a fit for Stoll or a center in that mold.

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04-26-2012, 01:25 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by bobbyorrrrr View Post
Those that want to trade Vanek for Staal, remember in part the reason Staal is getting traded is because it would seem likely that the Pens can't afford him, so I doubt they are trading for Vanek's cap hit.

Staal for Roy, Sekera, and the Sabre's first this year.

Despite Roy's stats, his reputation is poison in the league from all accounts. Basically he is an add in to me to give them depth for the year at c. Sekera is the centerpiece, for the Pens obvious needs at defense. The first is for the difference in value between a center and a defenseman, especially the size difference between the players. Sekera's cap hit is a big factor in why he has so much value to the Pen's in particular since they are low on cap space.
It's not that they can't afford him, it's more that it doesn't make a lot of sense to tie up large amount of cap space in 3 centers. Staal just wouldn't get enough time on the ice in Pittsburgh to justify a large contract. That wouldn't be the case for Vanek, because he'd be playing with either Crosby or Malkin.

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04-26-2012, 02:50 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
It's not that they can't afford him, it's more that it doesn't make a lot of sense to tie up large amount of cap space in 3 centers. Staal just wouldn't get enough time on the ice in Pittsburgh to justify a large contract. That wouldn't be the case for Vanek, because he'd be playing with either Crosby or Malkin.
I think this is crazy talk. Wouldn't get enough TOI to justify the contract? He plays 20 mins/game. He's their top penalty-killer (Malkin and Sid don't play the PK). He can play the wing with Sid or Geno if they're trailing. He can play top competition. He absolutely warrants a deal in that $5.5-$6.25m neighborhood.

If they trade him for any other reason than he's expressed to them he's not willing to re-sign because he doesn't want to be a third banana for his whole career, they're idiots. You can make it work with the cap. Start drafting better (their forward drafting has been horrendous since Staal was drafted #2) and dump some of those cap-killing deals, and they'll be fine.

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04-26-2012, 02:55 PM
  #104
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WHy is everyone against trading Hodgson as a piece for Staal?

I'd do that in a heartbeat. Staal, Ennis..sign Stoll.

I guess I'm not sold on Hodgson panning out.

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04-26-2012, 03:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
If they trade him for any other reason than he's expressed to them he's not willing to re-sign because he doesn't want to be a third banana for his whole career, they're idiots. You can make it work with the cap. Start drafting better (their forward drafting has been horrendous since Staal was drafted #2) and dump some of those cap-killing deals, and they'll be fine.
Agreed, their drafting's laughably bad. Including Staal over Toews/Backstrom even.

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04-26-2012, 03:11 PM
  #106
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I'm for this, but if they wanted to send us Orpik and Staal for a package that included Sekera I would listen. Orpik is basically Sekera with a physical edge, but you have to wonder how many quality years he has left.

Ehrhoff and Myers names wouldn't come up unless Malkin is being shopped.
He's already on a steep decline in my opinion, he was awful the last month to two months of the season and in the playoffs. Do not want.

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04-26-2012, 03:11 PM
  #107
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Exactly. It's not an ice time issue. It could be an attention issue. That's why having all three of Ennis, Hodgeson, and Staal could work in Buffalo. Staal is by far the most well known of those three. Put Staal between Pominville and Leino (two other "name" players), call it the first line, and roll three lines evenly.


Last edited by Wraith: 04-26-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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04-26-2012, 03:23 PM
  #108
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I think this is crazy talk. Wouldn't get enough TOI to justify the contract? He plays 20 mins/game. He's their top penalty-killer (Malkin and Sid don't play the PK). He can play the wing with Sid or Geno if they're trailing. He can play top competition. He absolutely warrants a deal in that $5.5-$6.25m neighborhood.

If they trade him for any other reason than he's expressed to them he's not willing to re-sign because he doesn't want to be a third banana for his whole career, they're idiots. You can make it work with the cap. Start drafting better (their forward drafting has been horrendous since Staal was drafted #2) and dump some of those cap-killing deals, and they'll be fine.
He warrants it, I just don't think Pittsburgh is going to give it to him. They could put that cap space in other places that would be more of a benefit to them.

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04-26-2012, 03:26 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think this is crazy talk. Wouldn't get enough TOI to justify the contract? He plays 20 mins/game. He's their top penalty-killer (Malkin and Sid don't play the PK). He can play the wing with Sid or Geno if they're trailing. He can play top competition. He absolutely warrants a deal in that $5.5-$6.25m neighborhood.

If they trade him for any other reason than he's expressed to them he's not willing to re-sign because he doesn't want to be a third banana for his whole career, they're idiots. You can make it work with the cap. Start drafting better (their forward drafting has been horrendous since Staal was drafted #2) and dump some of those cap-killing deals, and they'll be fine.
I'm not concerned with that they are trading him based on TOI or anything along those lines. I understand they could work the cap to fit him in, but I don't think that would be particularly wise. If I am the Pens my biggest issue is defense. Outside of Letang they have no impact players, granted Orpik was but I don't think he has much more than a year or so of quality in him much like Rivet. I don't think you need to put that kind of salary into your third center, which is his best position. Crosby and Malkin have both proven they don't need a highly paid winger to be dominant in the league, so it doesn't make much sense to put Staal on one of their wings, which is not his dominant position. I think it would make a lot of sense for the Pens to trade him for reasons beside his own discontent.

And similar to what many complain about here, it won't be easy to get rid of those cap killing deals like Martin's multiple year 5 mil hit. And even if you do get rid of those guys you still need to replace them. Few of their high contracts cap hits are players they would want to get rid of. So unless the cap goes up I think they are in a situation were they could trade Staal, despite his value to the team.

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04-26-2012, 03:27 PM
  #110
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Staal comes in and instantly takes Roy's minutes. He becomes the all-situations go-to center that Roy has been for much of his time post-co captains. He and Pominville would be on the ice together in all situations (something that is very enticing to me). They'd form a formidable PK pair and a solid combination on the PP and at ES (both would lead forwards with ~22 minutes a game). They would also be our critical-minutes hogs.

I reckon Ruff would continue to groom Hodgson on the penalty kill and he'll also see time on the PP and at ES. I'm sure Kevyn Adams has already begun working on faceoffs with him. He'll likely play around 18/19 minutes a night.

Ennis becomes a matchup nightmare for opposing teams. He'd see time on the PP and get good minutes at ES, topping out at around 17 a night.

How are people claiming that this wouldn't make sense for Buffalo?

ES forward lines:
Leino-Staal-Pominville
Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
Gerbe-Ellis-Kaleta

PP forward lines (or some variation of):
Vanek-Staal-Pominville
Ennis-Hodgson-Stafford

PK forward lines (Ruff typically uses three):
Staal-Pominville
Hodgson-Kaleta
Some combination of Ellis, Stafford, Gerbe and Tropp. Would typically get neutral-zone starts.

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04-26-2012, 03:39 PM
  #111
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I know this is a crazy thought...but is there a way to get Staal AND not trade Roy away (either in the same or separate deal), thus giving us 4 top-6 centers in our top 9?

--Move Roy to wing
--If (when) someone gets hurt, slide him back to center

One of Stafford, Vanek, or Leino would probably have to be moved

Foligno-Ennis-RW
Roy-Staal-Pominville (shutdown line that can pack a punch offensively)
LW-Hodgson-RW

Fill the wings with Stafford, Vanek, Leino, Gerbe.

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04-26-2012, 03:44 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
I know this is a crazy thought...but is there a way to get Staal AND not trade Roy away (either in the same or separate deal), thus giving us 4 top-6 centers in our top 9?

--Move Roy to wing
--If (when) someone gets hurt, slide him back to center

One of Stafford, Vanek, or Leino would probably have to be moved

Foligno-Ennis-RW
Roy-Staal-Pominville (shutdown line that can pack a punch offensively)
LW-Hodgson-RW

Fill the wings with Stafford, Vanek, Leino, Gerbe.
Its possible but the organization doesn't sound like they plan on having Roy around.

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04-26-2012, 03:44 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Really?

92 pts in 140 GP isn't that much better than Wilson's 84pts in 185 GP.

Bailey was rushed to the NHL by the Isles, much like Connolly.



Ennis is on the uptick, but I doubt many around the league view Ennis as a "proven NHLer" like the Sabres do.

Ennis finished this season with 29 pts in 30gp. But, he only had 5pts in his first 18 GP this season.

Another factor is all around game and size. Ennis is undersized and that will depress his trade value a bit in the eyes of a lot of GMs. Just look at the Kassian for Hodgson deal as an example of size being an asset when trades happen.

Ennis has upside and a ton of offensive talent. But, I do believe you are valuing him more than people outside of Buffalo do.
Yeah, Bailey was rushed into the league. He's still been bad. Ennis has proven far more than Bailey. Trotz has benched Wilson several times, if I remember correctly. And Ennis having eight more points than Wilson in 45 less games is a pretty sizeable difference, I think.

I absolutely believe Ennis is considered a proven commodity league-wide. He had 49 points as a rookie and would have surpassed that this year had his season not been shortened. I'm not dismissing his dreadful start, but I think most teams would look at that as a slump to start the season in the same light that they'd look at his finish to the season as just a hot streak.

You're right on about the size difference and its effect on trade value.

Again, maybe I'm overvaluing him - I don't think I am.

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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
You're overvaluing Ennis because of his strong finish. It seems many have Little Tyler penciled in for 70 pts next year from the center position. I think people are getting ahead of themselves over a 30-game stretch.

I was looking at the Carter trade as a comparable for Staal. Can we agree that Staal has at least that much value? Buffalo has to give up a pick in the top-half of the first round (but 8th pick > 12th pick, especially in a down draft year), a young player with upside (I think Ennis has a tad more value than Voracek did), and something else. Perhaps we can make Sekera a 2nd rounder instead, and take off the 2nd rounder I had coming to us from PIT.

Thus, Ennis + 12th pick + 42nd pick for Staal. That's a fair deal (unless, of course, you think Tyler Ennis is going to be a 70-pt player for the foreseeable future). Staal is the type of two-way player this team needs, and he's a natural center.

You're overvaluing Ennis again. His numbers are only slightly better than Voracek's were when he was dealt along with the 8th pick and a 2nd rounder for Carter, a great regular season player who'd historically flopped in the playoffs. If you don't want to offer Ennis, fine, but I don't think you should expect to get Staal if that's the case.
I don't have Ennis penciled in for anything next season, really. Projections are silly. I do, however, think it's safe to assume that his trade value went way up with his play late in the season. Ennis, 12 and 42 is far more fair than Ennis, Sekera and 12.

I'm not even sure Staal has the trade value that Carter had last Summer. Both are big centers that excel in both ends of the ice. The difference is that Carter was coming off team-leading 46, 33 and 36-goal seasons all of which he scored more than 60 points (on a team that didn't feature two of the best players in the world). Staal is coming off 21, 11 (42 games) and 25 (62 games)-goal seasons.

Factor in that he's unsigned beyond next season and it lessens his trade value, in my opinion. I do agree that Pittsburgh doesn't have to trade him, though. They will wait for a great offer; they could get one. I don't think it'll be as good as Ennis, Sekera and 12, though. They won't get that kind of offer.

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04-26-2012, 03:46 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveDaSwords View Post
I know this is a crazy thought...but is there a way to get Staal AND not trade Roy away (either in the same or separate deal), thus giving us 4 top-6 centers in our top 9?

--Move Roy to wing
--If (when) someone gets hurt, slide him back to center

One of Stafford, Vanek, or Leino would probably have to be moved

Foligno-Ennis-RW
Roy-Staal-Pominville (shutdown line that can pack a punch offensively)
LW-Hodgson-RW

Fill the wings with Stafford, Vanek, Leino, Gerbe.
It's obviously possible but I would think it would take Vanek to get it done and Pittsburgh would add some one else in to make some cap space.

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04-26-2012, 04:03 PM
  #115
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Its possible but the organization doesn't sound like they plan on having Roy around.
I guess my point is why limit ourselves to three centers in the top 9. We shouldn't be satisfied with being three deep down the middle, we should be trying to do more.

Especially given that Hecht may not be kept which gives some injury insurance at the position (when he's not hurt himself). It would be nice to not to have to worry about our center situation should one or more get hurt.

So if it isn't Roy, maybe it's another center. Maybe a guy who can play both center and the wing (a poor man's Patrick Sharp) at the NHL level (aka not Adam...yet). Brandon Dubinsky maybe. But that's getting away from the thread at hand.

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04-26-2012, 04:12 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
I think this is crazy talk. Wouldn't get enough TOI to justify the contract? He plays 20 mins/game. He's their top penalty-killer (Malkin and Sid don't play the PK). He can play the wing with Sid or Geno if they're trailing. He can play top competition. He absolutely warrants a deal in that $5.5-$6.25m neighborhood.

If they trade him for any other reason than he's expressed to them he's not willing to re-sign because he doesn't want to be a third banana for his whole career, they're idiots. You can make it work with the cap. Start drafting better (their forward drafting has been horrendous since Staal was drafted #2) and dump some of those cap-killing deals, and they'll be fine.
agreed

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04-26-2012, 04:15 PM
  #117
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Staal comes in and instantly takes Roy's minutes. He becomes the all-situations go-to center that Roy has been for much of his time post-co captains. He and Pominville would be on the ice together in all situations (something that is very enticing to me). They'd form a formidable PK pair and a solid combination on the PP and at ES (both would lead forwards with ~22 minutes a game). They would also be our critical-minutes hogs.

I reckon Ruff would continue to groom Hodgson on the penalty kill and he'll also see time on the PP and at ES. I'm sure Kevyn Adams has already begun working on faceoffs with him. He'll likely play around 18/19 minutes a night.

Ennis becomes a matchup nightmare for opposing teams. He'd see time on the PP and get good minutes at ES, topping out at around 17 a night.

How are people claiming that this wouldn't make sense for Buffalo?

ES forward lines:
Leino-Staal-Pominville
Vanek-Hodgson-Tropp
Foligno-Ennis-Stafford
Gerbe-Ellis-Kaleta

PP forward lines (or some variation of):
Vanek-Staal-Pominville
Ennis-Hodgson-Stafford

PK forward lines (Ruff typically uses three):
Staal-Pominville
Hodgson-Kaleta
Some combination of Ellis, Stafford, Gerbe and Tropp. Would typically get neutral-zone starts.
just upgrade Ellis with a better PK/Faceoff guy like McClement, and that forward core is a thing of beauty....

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04-26-2012, 04:23 PM
  #118
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And you know this how?
I know, trust me. But go ahead and see if you can find a SINGLE Pens fan on their board to accept your Roy deal. Good luck.

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04-26-2012, 04:48 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
just upgrade Ellis with a better PK/Faceoff guy like McClement, and that forward core is a thing of beauty....
Staal, Pominville and McClement and Kaleta would make for a great stable of players to roll out on the PK.

Staal-Pominville
Hodgson-Kaleta
McClement-Tropp/Stafford

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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
I know, trust me. But go ahead and see if you can find a SINGLE Pens fan on their board to accept your Roy deal. Good luck.
People need to realize that fans don't run the team. Just because a fan base wouldn't do it doesn't mean the organization wouldn't. Canucks fans wouldn't trade Hodgson for Kassian. The organization did it anyways.

But I agree, I don't think Pittsburgh would want Roy.

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04-26-2012, 04:51 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by OkimLom View Post
Kind of hard to say hes a third line center, which technically he is, but hes third behind arguably the two best players/Centers players in the league.
Roy, Hodgson, and Ennis I don't think make a very good 1-2-3 punch. Out of those three who are you going to throw out there for faceoffs at the end of the game? I dont think Cody and Tyler have proven they can handle the center position for a full year(Maybe Cody has). I think Roy needs to go to a more run and gun kind of team. I don't think we are that team anymore.

I think adding Staal, you get a reliable center with size and better defensive abilities than Roy. I think he would be a better fit than any of the other centers that are "AVAILABLE"
1. If the Sabres got him can you tell me right now he'd be above Roy, Ennis and Hodgson? If so than we're giving a lot to trade for him and I don't think he'd that big of an upgrade from Roy. I'd say Roy is better offensively while Staal is better defensively.


2. Roy. He improved his winning-percentage last year but (in my opinion) people over rate the faceoff winning percentage. Gaustad has a 57% Roy 48% Staal 50%. I don't care about winning a faceoff I care about someone hooking Landeskog down instead of letting him into the zone (don't think this applies to Staal).

3. I would love to have Staal on the team, Getzlaf too; but question is at what price. Roy + 1st SURE DONE (and I think Getzlaf > Staal). When I see people trying to trade our best winger (Vanek) for Staal I just question whether this is because of the Sabres failure to make the playoffs or not.

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04-26-2012, 04:52 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Play4Miracles View Post
I know, trust me. But go ahead and see if you can find a SINGLE Pens fan on their board to accept your Roy deal. Good luck.
That's a viable source.

Last time I checked Ray Shero isn't on the Pens board.

I don't think it will happen. But saying you no it won't followed by 'trust me' is not even hearsay.

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04-26-2012, 04:53 PM
  #122
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We don't know what your stating as to be "fact". It's opinion.

What we do know factually, is that both Cody Hodgson and Jordan Staal would like increased ice time and a more pivotal role for their position.
I highly doubt increased ice time is an issue for Staal. His atoi of 20:03 was 27th among forwards. Thats a ton of ice time for any forward and an insane amount of ice time for a "3rd line" center. 17 of the 26 forwards ahead of him in ice time are centers. That means as the Pens 3rd center he averaged more ice time than a good chunk of #1 centers and the overwhelming majority of top 6 centers. Its also a bit much to assert its a fact he wants more ice time since its never been asserted (as far as I've heard) that he does. Common sense would tell us its not a likely complaint either.

Also Hodgson wanting out of Vancouver was more than ice time issues. He had issues with how his back injury was handled and that seemed to start the problems.

Quote:
Tyler Ennis could go back to LW if both Staal and Hodgson perform to par for the 1 and 2 center positions, my opinion is that the organization isn't going that route.
They've openly stated they were surprised at Ennis ability at center, and they took note of the chemistry created between Foligno, Stafford and Ennis.
Ennis would not have to go back to center. When do you become a fan of this team? If you had watched this team after the lockout you would know that this team can and has thrived with 3 top 6 centers and they all got ice time.

06-07
-Briere 19:18
-Roy 18:27
-Drury 18:46

Ennis would be perfectly suited to the Roy role of those teams.

You have to be the only Sabres fan on the planet that thinks Staal and Hodgson hitting their full potential would be a bad thing because of its potential impact on Ennis at center.

Quote:
I'm guessing now, but I don't believe Buffalo would be the right fit for Staal, I believe Buffalo is more of a fit for Stoll or a center in that mold.
How in the world did you come to the conclusion that Jarret Stoll would be a better fit than Jordan Staal for the Sabres? Lets sign the much older and less talented player with zero upside. That would be the better move.

You have this utterly bizarre opinion that Staal, Hodgson and Ennis together on our roster would actually be a problem. As opposed to what it actually would be, the best center situation we've had since the captains left. It would also be the infusion of yet another young talented player to rebuld the core. Also 2 of the 3 can play center which gives you all sorts of options in the playoffs and when injuries hit.

If Staal came here he would have a more prominant role here than he would in Pittsburgh. He would be the clearcut #1 center upon arrival.

You also don't seem to understand that its possible to have 3 centers like Staal, Hodgson and Ennis but still have Staal and Hodgson play more prominant roles than they did on theior previous teams. Its not different than the co-captain years.
Just to further that point, Hodgson played in a 3 center set up os of his time as a Sabre and he averaged 17:16 anight as a Sabre. Thats about 3:30 mins more than the 12:44 he played in Vancouver. So already he has had a more prominant role as a Sabre playing more and its in a 3 center, 3 rolling lines set up.


Last edited by joshjull: 04-26-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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04-26-2012, 05:10 PM
  #123
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The posters that think it makes sense to go into next season relying on a rookie (Foligno) and a kid with 2 months at center (Ennis) for 2/3rds of one of our top 6 lines needs to have their head examined.

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04-26-2012, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The posters that think it makes sense to go into next season relying on a rookie (Foligno) and a kid with 2 months at center (Ennis) for 2/3rds of one of our top 6 lines needs to have their head examined.
This. While I agree that it's likely what ends up happening, it definitely doesn't put Buffalo in a position for success. Let Foligno-Ennis-Stafford continue to tear it up against bottom-pairing defensemen.

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04-26-2012, 05:22 PM
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Posters that think that Jordan Staal is going to be on the Buffalo Sabres also need to get their heads checked as well.

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