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Markham Arena II

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Old
04-26-2012, 11:07 PM
  #26
htpwn
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Haha you would have to expect this..we're really threatened by Markham getting an arena
Yeah, its like the Coyotes thread when the league makes any sort of progress in keeping the team local.

We really should have a Southern Ontario debate thread, just to keep all of the bickering separate from any news.

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04-26-2012, 11:13 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Yeah, its like the Coyotes thread when the league makes any sort of progress in keeping the team local.

We really should have a Southern Ontario debate thread, just to keep all of the bickering separate from any news.
Oh like that thread wouldn't get locked after 6 pages after 907 posts get deleted, 67 warnings issued and three members get astrixed...

The only serious and humane way to handle this is nude jello wrestling....


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04-26-2012, 11:16 PM
  #28
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Town of Markham. Or was the question rhetorical? Not sure.
They really should change their title from 'Town of Markham' to 'The Increasingly Misnamed Town of Markham'...


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04-26-2012, 11:24 PM
  #29
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Notable persons in attendance tonight:
  • Bob Hunter, MLSE Exec. VP Venues and Entertainment.
  • Graeme Roustan, GTA Centre LP, CEO.
  • Bob Nicholson, former President, Toronto Argos
  • Representatives from Live Nation
  • Representatives from Global Spectrum
  • Markham Waxers players and executives
  • Brenda Andress, Commissioner of the Canadian women's hockey league

For (11):
Alex Chiu
Howard Shore
Valerie Burke
Gordon Landon
Don Hamilton
Logan Kanapathi
Carolina Moretti
Colin Campbell
Alan Ho
Jack Heath, Deputy Mayor
Frank Scarpitti, Mayor

Against (2):
Jim Jones
Joe Li

Motion carries.

Notes:
  • Roustan says Live Nation's participation is "unprecedented." The concert promoter says they can fill 131 of 365 days in a year.
  • Councillor John Li puts forward motion to defer vote for 60 days, defeated 10-2.


Last edited by htpwn: 04-26-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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04-26-2012, 11:43 PM
  #30
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Im surprised AEG isn't putting in a offer to run it being that their the biggest sports entertainment company out there .. are they there?

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04-26-2012, 11:55 PM
  #31
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Im surprised AEG isn't putting in a offer to run it being that their the biggest sports entertainment company out there .. are they there?
Doesn't sound like it.

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04-27-2012, 12:04 AM
  #32
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what was voted on specifically :

Quote:
(1) MARKHAM SPORTS, ENTERTAINMENT
& CULTURAL CENTRE (6.0)
April20Presentation Report April 26Presentation

1) That the report entitled “Proposed Sports, Entertainment, and Cultural Centre in Markham Centre” dated April 19, 2012 be received; and,


2) That Council approve the partnership and financial frameworks described in this report, to construct a Sports, Entertainment and Cultural Centre in Markham Centre, with approximately 20,000 seats, subject to due diligence results satisfactory to the Chief Administrative Officer, Council approval of final terms, and execution of final agreements satisfactory to the Town Solicitor and Chief Administrative Officer; and,



3) That Council endorse the development contribution amounts as outlined in this report; and,


4) That the Chief Administrative Officer be authorized and directed to continue with due diligence investigation and to finalize negotiations with GTA Centre, LP and its limited partner(s) and bring a report forward to Council on the final terms; and,




5) That staff review and report to Council on any additional offers to contribute to the capital cost of the Town of Markham Sports, Entertainment and Cultural Centre that are brought to staff's attention; and further,



6) That staff be authorized and directed to do all things necessary to give effect to this resolution.

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04-27-2012, 12:06 AM
  #33
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I was there!

Passed with absolute ease (but took four hours which was three hours too long). They first had a motion to defer for 60 days which was supported by Li/Jones which was struck down with ease (11-2 as well), and then about an hour later that vote.

My favourite part of public meetings for items that involve a large amount of public spending is the people that show up. Let me summarize the meeting in three simple conversations.

1)
Public: We don't want our tax dollars being spent on an arena!
Mayor/Council: As you can see in the presentation, the worst case scenario is a $160 (approx 3%) increase in property taxes, and that is with absolutely zero contributions to the $162.5M
Public: We don't want our tax dollars spent wah!

2)
Public: We haven't had enough time to look at this
Mayor/Council: This pretty clearly isn't a final vote, and it will be looked at in the future
Public: We don't want our tax dollars being spent!

3)
Combination of those two, just substitute public for Li/Jones

AEG wasn't there since Global Spectrum will run the proposed arena, at least from what I could gather at the meeting. There honestly wasn't a ton of stuff presented that was different from the slideshow that popped up here last week.

Also my favourite depositions
1) Woman who pretty much says there aren't enough white people in Markham to support a hockey team
2) Guy who comes up with his own counter-slideshow that shows environmental issues (this one I actually liked, I am a massive fan of counter-slideshows)
3) President of the Ontario Speed Skating Association (I think) who just straight up calls out the woman's hockey league for being full of slow skaters.

In conclusion, solid 7/10 meeting. Also the reporter from CTV was an absolute rocket.


Last edited by theaub: 04-27-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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04-27-2012, 12:16 AM
  #34
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Quote:
AEG wasn't there since Global Spectrum will run the proposed arena, at least from what I could gather at the meeting.
I find that odd toronto 2 arena and no bidding war between AEG and Live Nation.

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04-27-2012, 12:20 AM
  #35
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For all we know there might have been one already, or perhaps AEG hasn't thrown their hat into the ring. There's a long way to go before a shovel hits the ground.

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04-27-2012, 12:43 AM
  #36
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These guys all know each and have their connections.

I'd assume Roustan's "choice" is the Global Spectrum/Live Nation boys.

This has got "NHL" written all over it.

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04-27-2012, 12:45 AM
  #37
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I find it tough to believe him/Bratty would guarantee $162.5M+ without a NHL team at the front door.

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04-27-2012, 01:49 AM
  #38
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So, after reading all of that.



The timeline for ground-breaking for construction is in limbo?

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04-27-2012, 03:50 AM
  #39
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http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/New...slam!%20hockey
Toronto Sun story (from before the vote)

Quote:
Concerns about paying back the $162.5 million were expressed by some councillors and public delegates, but most appeared in favour of the project.

Sports entrepreneur W. Graeme Roustan and real estate billionaire Rudy Bratty have pledged to bankroll the remaining $162.5 million for the proposed 20,000-seat, 600,000-square-foot Markham Sports, Entertainment and Cultural Centre - also known as the GTA Centre.

They would then turn over the complex to the town and organize events on an annual lease-back deal.

Roustan told reporters he and his partners hope to start construction near Kennedy Rd. and Hwy. 407 "late this summer or early fall," with the complex’s opening predicted for the fall of 2014.

Town CAO Andy Taylor said even if costs rise and the complex fails to meet expectations for concerts, sports, art shows, an art gallery, plus public events, households would pay only $160 each over five years to cover the loan.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...TA-Centre.html

THN/Campbell story (post vote)

Quote:
And they managed to do that Thursday night when Markham Town Council voted 11-2 to approve a financial framework for the rink, stickhandling around concerns that taxpayers might be left on the hook for the Markham Sports, Entertainment and Cultural Centre (corporate name to follow), a $325 million building that has no guarantees it will ever attract an NHL team.

Graeme Roustan, the chairman of hockey equipment giant Bauer and the driving force behind the facility, pointed out that all cost overruns would be covered by his group. And while the town will be responsible for coming up with $162.5 million, the money will be recouped with surcharges on events in the building and by private developers who will pay up to $6,500 per townhouse that is constructed in one of Canada’s fastest growing communities.

Roustan and his group clearly assuaged the town’s council, which will now enter into final negotiations that could lead to shovels going into the ground by this summer. It’s being projected that the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) Centre will open in the fall of 2014, in time for the 2015 World Junior Championship that Roustan has already applied to host. Once built in 2014, ownership of the building would go to the Town of Markham, who will in turn lease it to Roustan’s group, likely on a 49-year lease.

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04-27-2012, 07:19 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theaub View Post
Public: We don't want our tax dollars being spent on an arena!
Mayor/Council: As you can see in the presentation, the worst case scenario is a $160 (approx 3%) increase in property taxes, and that is with absolutely zero contributions to the $162.5M
Public: We don't want our tax dollars spent wah!
There are lies, damn lies, and megaproject cost estimates. Rogers Centre, originally called "SkyDome", was promised for $150 million. The final cost was over half a billion ($570 million). After a couple of financial collapses, it was bought by Rogers Communications for $25 million in 2004. In the 15 years since its opening, it had depreciated 96%. Welcome to SkyDome II.

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04-27-2012, 07:39 AM
  #41
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04-27-2012, 07:58 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by WingsFan95 View Post
Thing is, Markham is 1 hour from Barrie.
45 min from Oshawa.
30-45 min from Newmarket and the rest of York Region.

That's a city population of over 400,000 that is hockey mad and is usually not within range to go see many Leafs games...nor do they really want to.

Then there's Northern Toronto.


Hamilton and Kitchener area is pushing 800 thousand but I think too many people are looking at those numbers the wrong way. The economy and spending habits in those areas aren't the best for hockey.


Now, don't get me wrong, but I wouldn't say Hamilton, who got passed over for Tampa and Ottawa, is all that big of an option especially with a now ancient stadium.


Houston and Seattle are in no way ahead of Markham. No way.
Not that I expect a team in the area but I think your post about Hamilton/KW has some factual errors. Hamilton's metro population is about 750K and the Region of Waterloo is over 500K.

I am also not sure abot your comment about the economy would be because the KW region has a very good economy with lots of high paying jobs. And if you don't think the area is hockey mad you have never been to a Rangers game.

In the end though, what if this project is not about getting an NHL team but rather about giving people in the area a facility that will add something to their quality of life?

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04-27-2012, 08:19 AM
  #43
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In the end though, what if this project is not about getting an NHL team but rather about giving people in the area a facility that will add something to their quality of life?
Then it's way oversized. A 10,000 seat arena would have been more appropriate. That would the right size for mid-range concerts and shows, trade shows, and stand a resonable chance of attracting junior hockey. This strikes me as more about hubris than rational need...

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04-27-2012, 09:05 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by JMROWE View Post
Copps Coliseum can be easly & quickly upgraded in a matter of months & with posible comfimation of Katz & AEG, takking over Copps Coliseum tomorrow Quebec City & Hamilton are clearly at the ahead of the line .

I would not be surprised if Hamilton has contractors on there speed dail ready to move in & start renovating Copps Coliseum at moments notice .
You keep insisting on this, JM. I appreciate that you are a chief cheerleader here for the hammer (and I'd love it too) but I have a sense that you are underestimating the time and downtown disruption necessary to renovate the arena, and overestimating the final result.

Besides, I suggest that no matter what sort or extent of renovations to Copps, it will still be a second rate NHL arena. A coat of paint on a narrow hallway is still just a coat of paint on a narrow hallway and unless there are plans to raise the roof, there is a finite space inside the seating area that can only result in a ring of boxes being crammed in over existing seats.

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04-27-2012, 09:07 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
Then it's way oversized. A 10,000 seat arena would have been more appropriate. That would the right size for mid-range concerts and shows, trade shows, and stand a resonable chance of attracting junior hockey. This strikes me as more about hubris than rational need...
Possibly, but it depends on the events they want to attract. If they want the top concerts rather than mid range, or events like the World Juniors then a larger arena may make sense. It seems like a long shot but it is possible that the new Markham arena may be able to take business away from the ACC.

I think this is a risk, and I do agree that it does seem too larger, but I don't dismiss it off hand.

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04-27-2012, 09:13 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by theaub View Post
I find it tough to believe him/Bratty would guarantee $162.5M+ without a NHL team at the front door.
I got an option for season tickets at the new rink in Kansas City. Any day now . . .

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04-27-2012, 09:44 AM
  #47
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Then there's Northern Toronto.
Of course.... Hypothetcally, Id be willing to bet folding money you could put a team in Markham, Downsview AND Hamilton with enough change left over to drop another team into Barrie or Vaughan at some point down the road as well. Hell, who needs the NHL?.

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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Can somebody please remind me what municipality is in the title?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
Haha you would have to expect this..we're really threatened by Markham getting an arena
Dont be. If Im reading the teal leaves correctly, a plan for the entire region, all of Southern Ontario's in the works, and that would absolutely include Hamilton.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan574 View Post
I find that odd; toronto 2 arena and no bidding war between AEG and Live Nation.
... Elementary, my dear Watson. Leiweke & AEG has its sites set on Hamilton, Sniders' Global-Spectrum Markham. The power brokers within the NHL have already divvied up the spoils, leaving MLSE's management swabbies out in the cold, determinations already made as to just how much booty the stiffs down at the ACC'll be receiving.


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04-27-2012, 09:58 AM
  #48
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The power brokers within the NHL have already divvied up the spoils, leaving MLSE's management swabbies out in the cold, determinations already made as to just how much booty the stiffs down at the ACC'll be receiving.

nothing like biting the hand that feeds ya. it's not out of the realm of possibilities that a strategy like that might result in scorched ice fueled by the only real money in the whole game. screw Canada, sure, but bettman should probably not attempt to screw MLSE that way.

I would unfold some good money for a front row seat to see MLSE vs. The Commish.

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04-27-2012, 10:18 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
Besides, I suggest that no matter what sort or extent of renovations to Copps, it will still be a second rate NHL arena. A coat of paint on a narrow hallway is still just a coat of paint on a narrow hallway and unless there are plans to raise the roof, there is a finite space inside the seating area that can only result in a ring of boxes being crammed in over existing seats.
The plan is a full reno, including popping the roof, as it was engineered to do. No different than what Madison Square Garden went through recently...

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04-27-2012, 10:32 AM
  #50
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Not to mention Brampton Mississauga..certainly they wouldn't fight traffic all the way out to Markham for a 7pm game
Right because the 407 south is so busy. I lived in Brampton and I would far more likely drive to Markham for a game then Hamilton.

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