HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Pittsburgh Penguins
Notices

I want a defensive powerhouse

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #76
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Definition View Post
Yeah, it would be great to play defense like St. Louis or Los Angeles and give up < 2 GA/G but you also have to remember that those teams have been struggling big time to find offense all year (and with the forwards they have they shouldn't be). You have to ask yourself which end of the spectrum you'd rather be on.
The one still in the playoffs.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 02:25 PM
  #77
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
That's ridiculous, Jags. Gill may be at 16th in the league in shots blocked with 161, but Michalek was 30th in the league this year with 144. Orpik was 38th with 139. Scuderi was 68th in the league at 116. Statistically speaking, there's not much of a difference in that category between Gill and Michalek or Orpik.

What is a problem is that our shot blocking was not spread out among the roster.

Edit: Also forgot to add that Michalek played 14 less games than Gill this season.
Great, so he's a regular-season shot-blocker. And we're a regular-season team. Fantastic.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 02:43 PM
  #78
TheEdge27
Registered User
 
TheEdge27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 531
vCash: 543
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Uneducated?

Well can you educate me on how Michalek & Martin were number 1 defensemen on top ranked defensive teams before coming to the Pens & sucking? Now that you mention it can you educate me on why every other team in the second round managed not to give up cross crease passes consistently leading to goals? How about the picks the Flyers used? Couldn't have been the man on man defense because Bylsma is infallible huh?
Maybe the strong team defense made these guys look better than they are? Bryzgalov was a mediocre goalie for almost 10 years. Then all of a sudden he comes out of nowhere with 2 dyanmite seasons. Those 2 seasons happened to be Tippetts first 2 years in Phoenix. He leaves, and struggles, despite being on a good team.

Mike Smith, mediocre goalie for 10 years, cant even win Tampa Bay's starting job. Goes to Phoenix, and now everyone is on his dick.

So, does the system make these players look better, or does the system work because of the players?

TheEdge27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 03:13 PM
  #79
HandshakeLine
is probso trolling u
 
HandshakeLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 18,067
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Great, so he's a regular-season shot-blocker. And we're a regular-season team. Fantastic.
Fine, Jags.

In 5 PGP, Scuderi has blocked 12 shots. In 6 playoff games, Orpik blocked 16. Michalek blocked 10. Gill blocked... zero.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...t/blockedShots

So, what do you want? What is your actual beef with our shot blocking? I get that you're frustrated, but this is not the area I'd chose to focus on, nor the players I'd want to see back.

HandshakeLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 04:25 PM
  #80
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEdge27 View Post
Maybe the strong team defense made these guys look better than they are? Bryzgalov was a mediocre goalie for almost 10 years. Then all of a sudden he comes out of nowhere with 2 dyanmite seasons. Those 2 seasons happened to be Tippetts first 2 years in Phoenix. He leaves, and struggles, despite being on a good team.

Mike Smith, mediocre goalie for 10 years, cant even win Tampa Bay's starting job. Goes to Phoenix, and now everyone is on his dick.

So, does the system make these players look better, or does the system work because of the players?
It's a combination of both IMO. It's a matter of putting players in the best situation to succeed. At the same time the players have to play & the coach can't do that for him.

I'm not saying fire Bylsma. I like him but from what I've seen around the league his system in the defensive zone is not conducive with winning playoff games.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 05:03 PM
  #81
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEdge27 View Post
Maybe the strong team defense made these guys look better than they are? Bryzgalov was a mediocre goalie for almost 10 years. Then all of a sudden he comes out of nowhere with 2 dyanmite seasons. Those 2 seasons happened to be Tippetts first 2 years in Phoenix. He leaves, and struggles, despite being on a good team.

Mike Smith, mediocre goalie for 10 years, cant even win Tampa Bay's starting job. Goes to Phoenix, and now everyone is on his dick.

So, does the system make these players look better, or does the system work because of the players?
You clearly didn't watch any of those Phoenix-Chicago games if you think Smith's emergence is the product of any "system".

If by system you mean letting Chicago play in your end for 80% of the series, then you're right.

MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 06:00 PM
  #82
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,982
vCash: 500
This is from half of 1 game.

If I really wanted to be a jerk to prove a point, I'd make videos of Rinne and Holtby.


MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 06:39 PM
  #83
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,279
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
You clearly didn't watch any of those Phoenix-Chicago games if you think Smith's emergence is the product of any "system".

If by system you mean letting Chicago play in your end for 80% of the series, then you're right.
Yup Mike Smith is legit. Tippett adds to him being so good but the guy has finally been healthy for a full year and knowing he had the 'yotes #1 job must have really made him focus extra hard. He took it and ran.

Bringing in a defensive powerhouse won't fix anything. The Pens have been a mess since Jan win, lose or draw. Look at Letang in the playoffs. Give away after give away and it seemed like he was backchecking on every play. Its great he's coming back to break up plays so hard but he's just covering up for mistakes. He's to good for garbage hockey like that.

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 07:12 PM
  #84
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
This is from half of 1 game.

If I really wanted to be a jerk to prove a point, I'd make videos of Rinne and Holtby.

There is no doubt you have to have your goalie stand tall & make important saves. Half those shots though came from low scoring areas. I'm sure the Yotes didn't wanted it around 90% but their defense is still better than the Pens.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 08:48 PM
  #85
vikingGoalie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 868
vCash: 500
curious, in that video I didn't see any chicago players just standing around an empty back door.
Didn't see much in the way of passes through the low slot for one timers.

Only real breakdowns in that video was the one timer from the slot, and the 2-1.

That said, notice how after every shot how phoenix boxed out the crease?
We simply don't do it most the time, it's basic defensive mindset.
If Jordan Staal boxes out his guy in OT in game 1 it's not a goal, instead of just trying to lift a stick.

Also notice how phoenix was great on forming a box that it was difficult to penetrate. Sure Toews got a chance in there, they aren't perfect. No one is.

But your video shows a much better defensive oriented team then we saw from the Penguins.

As to the goalie argument, our Goalie has to play better. But it doesn't matter, we could swap out Fleury for Smith and we would still have struggled. Of 30 goals scored against, 20 of them were from 15 feet or less away from the net. That's CRAZY! We can't let people penetrate our defense like that. That IS defense. When defense is a mindset, when it's in-grained then people do it when under the crazy pressure of the playoffs.

vikingGoalie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 10:36 PM
  #86
vyktor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 820
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Til the End of Time View Post
slightly OT, but can we all agree, finally, at long last, that Hal Gill was a valuable member of the penguins, and was not just a "pylon"?

people underrated him when he was here and underrated him when he left.
He certainly looks good for Nash tonight.

vyktor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-27-2012, 11:15 PM
  #87
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HandshakeLine View Post
Fine, Jags.

In 5 PGP, Scuderi has blocked 12 shots. In 6 playoff games, Orpik blocked 16. Michalek blocked 10. Gill blocked... zero.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/statistics/pl...t/blockedShots

So, what do you want? What is your actual beef with our shot blocking? I get that you're frustrated, but this is not the area I'd chose to focus on, nor the players I'd want to see back.
It's not the shot-blocking. It's that he has to be able to do more than just block shots. He's butter soff. He has a big shot but never uses it. His reputation as a puck-mover is way overblown. And as a shutdown defender, he's putrid.

Nobody thought Hal Gill actually had more dimensions to his game than Zbynek Michalek, but after watching both of them with us it's clear that he does.

We already have 4 right-handed Dmen in Letang, Niskanen, Engelland and Bortuzzo. We don't need Michalek. For what he brings, there are $1-1.5 million players available.

We focus on Martin, and rightfully so, but Michalek is just as expendable.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 05:45 AM
  #88
Uncle Jorgi
Registered User
 
Uncle Jorgi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cranberry Twp, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 6,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
It's not the shot-blocking. It's that he has to be able to do more than just block shots. He's butter soff. He has a big shot but never uses it. His reputation as a puck-mover is way overblown. And as a shutdown defender, he's putrid.

Nobody thought Hal Gill actually had more dimensions to his game than Zbynek Michalek, but after watching both of them with us it's clear that he does.

We already have 4 right-handed Dmen in Letang, Niskanen, Engelland and Bortuzzo. We don't need Michalek. For what he brings, there are $1-1.5 million players available.

We focus on Martin, and rightfully so, but Michalek is just as expendable.
Not really. He's just a player who had a poor year, much like half of the players on our D. He isn't any less the player he was billed as when he's at the top of his game, anymore than Gonchar is a pile of useless **** just because his first year here was atrocious. You're overblowing his deficiencies in transition now, just like you were overblowing his deficiencies in shot-blocking earlier. He was never supposed to be anything more than competent in terms of adding to the offense ... people just took one comment Shero made about him having better offensive skills than he was given credit for and blew it out of proportion.

As to Hal Gill having more dimensions to his game ... what dimensions? Hal Gill is an important type of player for any team, but he is what he is ... he does basically two things well. Perhaps you can illuminate for me how exactly Gill plays some multi-faceted game in your eyes.

Uncle Jorgi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 06:31 AM
  #89
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,279
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
It's not the shot-blocking. It's that he has to be able to do more than just block shots. He's butter soff. He has a big shot but never uses it. His reputation as a puck-mover is way overblown. And as a shutdown defender, he's putrid.

Nobody thought Hal Gill actually had more dimensions to his game than Zbynek Michalek, but after watching both of them with us it's clear that he does.

We already have 4 right-handed Dmen in Letang, Niskanen, Engelland and Bortuzzo. We don't need Michalek. For what he brings, there are $1-1.5 million players available.

We focus on Martin, and rightfully so, but Michalek is just as expendable.
Fully agree. The thing about Hal Gill is that he is absolute money in the defensive crease. Kind of like a defensive zone Tim Kerr. He cuts off the middle of the ice and now the goalie has to move less. A butterfly goalie needs to go down, lock up and not worry about who's behind him. Not extend from post to post all game.

I actually like a defense that is more about defending around MAF, play pucks to the wall, have the wingers drop down lower and let them make the transitional plays.

I would agree that Gill and Scuds got to much money but the Pens should have found a way to keep one of them. The finished version of Scuds is better than both Zib and Martin. Sure his outlet isn't as good as Martins but does it really have to be when the Pens only transitional play is coming up the wall?

#66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 10:37 AM
  #90
MtlPenFan
Registered User
 
MtlPenFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,982
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
curious, in that video I didn't see any chicago players just standing around an empty back door.
Didn't see much in the way of passes through the low slot for one timers.

Only real breakdowns in that video was the one timer from the slot, and the 2-1.

That said, notice how after every shot how phoenix boxed out the crease?
We simply don't do it most the time, it's basic defensive mindset.
If Jordan Staal boxes out his guy in OT in game 1 it's not a goal, instead of just trying to lift a stick.

Also notice how phoenix was great on forming a box that it was difficult to penetrate. Sure Toews got a chance in there, they aren't perfect. No one is.

But your video shows a much better defensive oriented team then we saw from the Penguins.

As to the goalie argument, our Goalie has to play better. But it doesn't matter, we could swap out Fleury for Smith and we would still have struggled. Of 30 goals scored against, 20 of them were from 15 feet or less away from the net. That's CRAZY! We can't let people penetrate our defense like that. That IS defense. When defense is a mindset, when it's in-grained then people do it when under the crazy pressure of the playoffs.

So nobody saw two breakaways? A 2 on 1? Morrison's chance all alone in front where everyone but Smith thought it was in the net? The unchecked forward in the slot at 39 seconds? Toews dancing around a defender for a breakaway from the line in?

I almost regret putting that video up, just because it proves to me that people see what they want to see.

MtlPenFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 10:40 AM
  #91
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Jorgi View Post
Not really. He's just a player who had a poor year, much like half of the players on our D. He isn't any less the player he was billed as when he's at the top of his game, anymore than Gonchar is a pile of useless **** just because his first year here was atrocious. You're overblowing his deficiencies in transition now, just like you were overblowing his deficiencies in shot-blocking earlier. He was never supposed to be anything more than competent in terms of adding to the offense ... people just took one comment Shero made about him having better offensive skills than he was given credit for and blew it out of proportion.

As to Hal Gill having more dimensions to his game ... what dimensions? Hal Gill is an important type of player for any team, but he is what he is ... he does basically two things well. Perhaps you can illuminate for me how exactly Gill plays some multi-faceted game in your eyes.
Well for one thing, Hal Gill has hockey sense that Zbynek Michalek can only dream of. That's how you survive without wheels in the National Hockey League.

One LACKING quality of the defense is its collective lack of hockey IQ. We're pretty brain-dead back there.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 10:43 AM
  #92
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
So nobody saw two breakaways? A 2 on 1? Morrison's chance all alone in front where everyone but Smith thought it was in the net? The unchecked forward in the slot at 39 seconds? Toews dancing around a defender for a breakaway from the line in?

I almost regret putting that video up, just because it proves to me that people see what they want to see.
And you don't?

Not to mention you took one period from a game & you are trying to characterize it as the norm which just isn't true. The goalies in almost all the series made great saves for sure but they were also helped by the systems the guys in front of them played.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 10:46 AM
  #93
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Well for one thing, Hal Gill has hockey sense that Zbynek Michalek can only dream of. That's how you survive without wheels in the National Hockey League.

One LACKING quality of the defense is its collective lack of hockey IQ. We're pretty brain-dead back there.
Hal Gill would not have survived in this system. It's all about "puck retrieval" & ignores the fact that even the best puck possession teams have to play defense at some point.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 10:50 AM
  #94
Jag68Sid87
Registered User
 
Jag68Sid87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 28,041
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Hal Gill would not have survived in this system. It's all about "puck retrieval" & ignores the fact that even the best puck possession teams have to play defense at some point.
Maybe had we kept him or someone like him, we wouldn't have had to tweak the system so badly.

Basically, this all goes back to the Habs series. Instead of blaming Fleury for that loss, which I believe would have been accurate, we decided to make wholesale changes to the blueline...which led to systematic chances to how we play back there.

In so doing, the Pens lost their identity.

Jag68Sid87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 11:00 AM
  #95
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Maybe had we kept him or someone like him, we wouldn't have had to tweak the system so badly.

Basically, this all goes back to the Habs series. Instead of blaming Fleury for that loss, which I believe would have been accurate, we decided to make wholesale changes to the blueline...which led to systematic chances to how we play back there.

In so doing, the Pens lost their identity.
So you're saying Bylsma changed the system do to the players he was given? I guess it's possible. I mean with Gills skating there is no way he could have played man on man. I don't even remember what defensive coverage we used in 09 but I think we were still using zone from the MT era. Not sure about that though.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 11:02 AM
  #96
Darth Vitale
Moderator
Transitional Period
 
Darth Vitale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Fangorn
Country: United States
Posts: 25,448
vCash: 500
Hal Gill was in full pylon mode on a couple plays last night. Given that he's even slower than he was when he was here, it's hard to understand why anyone would entertain him as a "solution" to our D. So many players out there to trade for or get in FA who are better than he is for the immediate and long-term... people need to shelve their emotions when looking at the Cup teams. Gill isn't as good as people suggest, Talbot isn't as good as people suggest, and while Jagr is still a decent player, he also is not as good as people suggest.

Get out of the past. Think a little more broadly and think younger than that. The team needs to find guys that will stick around for a few years and make us a perennial contender without getting reamed on contract value (see also: Martin experiment). We're not looking for desperation stop-gaps or overpayments of gritty fan-favorites. Which is why I won't blink an eye if we trade Kennedy because not only is he not going to be worth whatever raise he gets next, he's not worth what he gets now.

Darth Vitale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #97
Ogelthorpe
Who do you play for?
 
Ogelthorpe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 1,506
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Uneducated?

Well can you educate me on how Michalek & Martin were number 1 defensemen on top ranked defensive teams before coming to the Pens & sucking? Now that you mention it can you educate me on why every other team in the second round managed not to give up cross crease passes consistently leading to goals? How about the picks the Flyers used? Couldn't have been the man on man defense because Bylsma is infallible huh?
Last time I checked, coaches don't make the decisions to try passes through defenders. Michalek didn't suck this year, Martin was very inconsistent. That being said.....You still don't seem to grasp that we still run a form of Therrien's system. Bylsma Played for some pretty good coaches, and coaches what he learned from them. You probably don't even know who Jerry York is, but he played for him for 4 years at BG, and played under Mike Babcock in Anaheim. That is why our system is open just like you see in Detroit.

However, lets pretend that Shero loses his brain and fires Bylsma and hires a "Defensive Powerhouse" coach like Jaques Lemairre. How ****ing long do think it will be before Sid and Geno skip town. Sorry, superstars like that don't want to play a 1-2-2 and sit on 1 goal leads.

The stars pick who they want as coach....it's been that way since Mario, and Sid and Geno like Bylsma.

At least act like you know how this organization is operated!

Ogelthorpe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 02:34 PM
  #98
eXile59
Shirts on.
 
eXile59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 16,194
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Last time I checked, coaches don't make the decisions to try passes through defenders. Michalek didn't suck this year, Martin was very inconsistent. That being said.....You still don't seem to grasp that we still run a form of Therrien's system. Bylsma Played for some pretty good coaches, and coaches what he learned from them. You probably don't even know who Jerry York is, but he played for him for 4 years at BG, and played under Mike Babcock in Anaheim. That is why our system is open just like you see in Detroit.

However, lets pretend that Shero loses his brain and fires Bylsma and hires a "Defensive Powerhouse" coach like Jaques Lemairre. How ****ing long do think it will be before Sid and Geno skip town. Sorry, superstars like that don't want to play a 1-2-2 and sit on 1 goal leads.

The stars pick who they want as coach....it's been that way since Mario, and Sid and Geno like Bylsma.

At least act like you know how this organization is operated!
Well thank you for establishing you have no idea what you are talking about. Sid & Geno are skipping town because of the 1-2-2? Pretty sure every team uses the the trap at some point during the game including us. It's called situational play but you wouldn't know that because you don't seem to know much about the game.

eXile59 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 02:35 PM
  #99
Sideline
Registered User
 
Sideline's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
This is from half of 1 game.

If I really wanted to be a jerk to prove a point, I'd make videos of Rinne and Holtby.

Man, the Blackhawks abused Martin and Mich- Oh, wait...

Sideline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-28-2012, 04:02 PM
  #100
TravisUlrich
Eternal Optimist
 
TravisUlrich's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,805
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
So nobody saw two breakaways? A 2 on 1? Morrison's chance all alone in front where everyone but Smith thought it was in the net? The unchecked forward in the slot at 39 seconds? Toews dancing around a defender for a breakaway from the line in?

I almost regret putting that video up, just because it proves to me that people see what they want to see.
Smith looked good but you're overstating it. There are some good saves in there for sure but for the most part you've got Blackhawks under pressure - in which case it's difficult to take the shot you want to take, 5 Coyotes in the slot, and d-men who are clearing the front of the net like crazy.

Put Smith in Fleury's place and we still lose. No goalie can stop that many back-door pass plays (except for maybe Lundqvist because he plays so deeply in his net) and chances from the slot without any pressure. And once you get lit up regularly OR when you are saving a ton of pucks, your confidence goes that way, your opponents confidence goes the other and it just perpetuates itself.

TravisUlrich is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.