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Reseeding between rounds.. unfair?

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04-27-2012, 09:54 PM
  #1
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Reseeding between rounds.. unfair?

First off, I think it's only unfair in theory. In actuality I think it doesn't really matter.. especially this season the way the seeds ended up. But, the rules are based on theory so this is a somewhat valid argument..

In THEORY..

The 1 seed is a better team then the 2 seed, who's a better team then the 3 seed, etc..

So, let's say in round 1, the 1, 3, 5, and 7 seeds advance.

In a standard bracket, the 1 seed would face the 5, and 3 would play 7.

In the NHL, 1 would play 7. But, since the 7 seed beat the 2 seed, that means the 7 seed is better then them, so the 1 > 2 > 3 thing no longer applies to this case. I would say at this point, if you had to rank the teams based on seed, i would say 1 > 7 > 3 > 5. So the 5 seed in theory would be the weakest team remaining in the conference.

Obviously for this season's eastern conference this is all out of whack, since if it wasn't for the fact division winners get 1,2,3 then 3 atlantic teams would have the 1 - 3 seeds.

Note: I'm NOT complaining that we get the caps as a matchup because of this system. I been thinking this for quite some time now.

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04-27-2012, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f2d View Post
First off, I think it's only unfair in theory. In actuality I think it doesn't really matter.. especially this season the way the seeds ended up. But, the rules are based on theory so this is a somewhat valid argument..

In THEORY..

The 1 seed is a better team then the 2 seed, who's a better team then the 3 seed, etc..

So, let's say in round 1, the 1, 3, 5, and 7 seeds advance.

In a standard bracket, the 1 seed would face the 5, and 3 would play 7.

In the NHL, 1 would play 7. But, since the 7 seed beat the 2 seed, that means the 7 seed is better then them, so the 1 > 2 > 3 thing no longer applies to this case. I would say at this point, if you had to rank the teams based on seed, i would say 1 > 7 > 3 > 5. So the 5 seed in theory would be the weakest team remaining in the conference.

Obviously for this season's eastern conference this is all out of whack, since if it wasn't for the fact division winners get 1,2,3 then 3 atlantic teams would have the 1 - 3 seeds.

Note: I'm NOT complaining that we get the caps as a matchup because of this system. I been thinking this for quite some time now.

That's funny because me and my brother were having this conversation today and I was wondering if the NBA reseeds after the 1st round but I don't think they do because the Knicks are the 7th and play the 2nd but IF they win I think they play the 3rd or 6th instead of the 1st. And I must say a bracket shouldn't change after a round But what can you do. LGR!

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04-27-2012, 10:53 PM
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would be kinda cool to see what would happen if instead of any seeding at all, you let the #1 team pick who they play, then the next highest remaining seed gets to pick who they play, and what not.

Would give a lot of motivation to the team picked to play against, and give a lot of story lines to mess with.

I can guarantee you the Rangers would NOT have picked Ottawa in the first round lol.

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04-27-2012, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
would be kinda cool to see what would happen if instead of any seeding at all, you let the #1 team pick who they play, then the next highest remaining seed gets to pick who they play, and what not.

Would give a lot of motivation to the team picked to play against, and give a lot of story lines to mess with.

I can guarantee you the Rangers would NOT have picked Ottawa in the first round lol.
I was actually thinking about an idea like this the other day, pretty much the same thing haha.

Then I kind of dismissed it because it would be the subject of such argument and second guessing (bad pick, good pick, hind sight 20/20 etc.)

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04-27-2012, 10:56 PM
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I think it all evens out anyway, since almost always the seedings are not the best representation of the teams' ranks

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04-27-2012, 10:57 PM
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Who gives a ****. We're #1 and we're bringing the cup home this year. THIS IS OUR SEASON, OUR YEAR, OUR DESTINY. THE CUP IS OURS.

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04-27-2012, 10:58 PM
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Any reason it's not like this for first round?:

1-8
3-6
2-7
4-5

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04-27-2012, 11:17 PM
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McDunna with Fries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guffawstev View Post
Any reason it's not like this for first round?:

1-8
3-6
2-7
4-5
The logic behind reseeding is that it would protect the higher seeds by playing the "worst team available" but that logic goes right out the window, because if a lower seed beats the higher seed in a seven game series, it's likely because the lower seeded team is just better lol.

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04-27-2012, 11:31 PM
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seeds are so ambiguous anyway, Florida was the #2 seed but finished the season with 8 points fewer than the team they were matched up against...and lost to, in the New Jersey Devils.

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04-27-2012, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
seeds are so ambiguous anyway, Florida was the #2 seed but finished the season with 8 points fewer than the team they were matched up against...and lost to, in the New Jersey Devils.
Florida was #3 seed, Boston was #2. Florida was awful, they would have been a bottom-3 seed if they didn't they play in that travesty of a division.

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04-27-2012, 11:36 PM
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Honestly? Seed 'em however the heck you want. Any team that isn't good enough to make it past any other team, doesn't deserve to win the cup to begin with to be honest.

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04-27-2012, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDunna with Fries View Post
The logic behind reseeding is that it would protect the higher seeds by playing the "worst team available" but that logic goes right out the window, because if a lower seed beats the higher seed in a seven game series, it's likely because the lower seeded team is just better lol.
This makes no sense at all. The 7 seed beating the 2 seed does not mean they are better it's just variance. If the 2 seed is 65% to win the series (around -190 in terms of betting odds) that means they still lose the series 1 in 3 times. 7 Game series is not nearly large enough of a sample size to determine which team is better overall in the long run (but the 82 game regular season, ignoring that schedules are unbalanced, would be much more indicative of which team is better). If the lower seeder team was just better than the higher seeded team that would be reflected in the standings beforehand and they wouldn't bet lower seeded. An exception to this is obviously if the lower ranked team made a key deadline acquisition, or the higher seed had a few big injuries (like daniel sedin for example). Another exception is the 3 v 6 matchup simply because of the way the nhl seeds the teams div 1 div 2 div 3 and then the next 5 in terms of points means the 6 seed very well could have been a better team than the 3 seed, just the 3 seed won in a weaker division (fla as opposed to nj).

The number 1 best way to do it, to favor the higher ranked teams (as they should be for earning that during the season) is to let them pick their opponent each round such that they will choose whoever they think they have the largest edge on. Since no league actually does this (maybe because they think it'll give the picked team motivation and such or just don't like the concept) the next best way to favor the top teams is to reseed so the top team always does play the worst teams.

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04-27-2012, 11:43 PM
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Doesn't reseeding make it more fair? The highest seed should always face the lowest remaining seed.

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04-27-2012, 11:47 PM
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Best thing about reseeding after every playoff round is that the best (or hottest) teams begin to distinguish themselves as they advance deeper into the playoffs. It also allows for some wacky matchups if the top-seeded teams inexplicably choke in the first round (see Western Conference, 2005-06 where the 5-8 seeds all advanced).

What irks me is the 3-6 matchup, especially if the lower seed has more points than the #3, the presumptive division winner. If you remember when the current playoff format was started (1994, that year again...) Western Conference teams could opt for a 2-3-2 series format to reduce travel. There could be an option for the #6 seed, if they have more points than the #3, to choose between the conventional 2-2-1-1-1 format or the 2-3-2. It could create intriguing scenarios with how a series plays out...

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04-27-2012, 11:54 PM
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McDunna with Fries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
Doesn't reseeding make it more fair? The highest seed should always face the lowest remaining seed.
Not necessarily because the seedings doesn't necessarily reflect the strength of the teams. If Florida beat the Devils, as the #1 seed wouldn't you much rather face the Panthers than the Capitals?

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04-27-2012, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SA16 View Post
This makes no sense at all. The 7 seed beating the 2 seed does not mean they are better it's just variance. If the 2 seed is 65% to win the series (around -190 in terms of betting odds) that means they still lose the series 1 in 3 times. 7 Game series is not nearly large enough of a sample size to determine which team is better overall in the long run (but the 82 game regular season, ignoring that schedules are unbalanced, would be much more indicative of which team is better). If the lower seeder team was just better than the higher seeded team that would be reflected in the standings beforehand and they wouldn't bet lower seeded. An exception to this is obviously if the lower ranked team made a key deadline acquisition, or the higher seed had a few big injuries (like daniel sedin for example). Another exception is the 3 v 6 matchup simply because of the way the nhl seeds the teams div 1 div 2 div 3 and then the next 5 in terms of points means the 6 seed very well could have been a better team than the 3 seed, just the 3 seed won in a weaker division (fla as opposed to nj).

The number 1 best way to do it, to favor the higher ranked teams (as they should be for earning that during the season) is to let them pick their opponent each round such that they will choose whoever they think they have the largest edge on. Since no league actually does this (maybe because they think it'll give the picked team motivation and such or just don't like the concept) the next best way to favor the top teams is to reseed so the top team always does play the worst teams.
Look, I agree that having the #1 seed choose their opponents would make for the "fairest" outcome but we all know that would NEVER happen. Too much drama and the first mishap or wrong pick will inevitably result in a highly publicized firing of a GM. Replace what I wrote with "team playing better at the moment" instead of "better team" and it makes more sense.

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04-27-2012, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by McDunna with Fries View Post
Not necessarily because the seedings doesn't necessarily reflect the strength of the teams. If Florida beat the Devils, as the #1 seed wouldn't you much rather face the Panthers than the Capitals?
The 3v6 matchup is an exception and that is more of a flaw in the way they rank the teams rather than making it so reseeding isn't best for the top team. The only reason it could be that way is because the teams are not ranked 1-8 in terms of record, but they are ranked 1-3 in terms of division winners, and 4-8 in terms of points and it is likely the worst division winner is a worse team than some of the second/possible third place finishers in stronger divisions.

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04-28-2012, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by McDunna with Fries View Post
Florida was #3 seed, Boston was #2. Florida was awful, they would have been a bottom-3 seed if they didn't they play in that travesty of a division.
yeah, you know what i meant.

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04-28-2012, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McDunna with Fries View Post
Not necessarily because the seedings doesn't necessarily reflect the strength of the teams. If Florida beat the Devils, as the #1 seed wouldn't you much rather face the Panthers than the Capitals?
And let's say we lost to Ottawa. Would you think it's fair that Ottawa gets to face Washington while Philadelphia has to play New Jersey? If I was Philadelphia, I'd be pissed. Wouldn't you want to face Ottawa instead of New Jersey?

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04-28-2012, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by IAMREALITY View Post
Honestly? Seed 'em however the heck you want. Any team that isn't good enough to make it past any other team, doesn't deserve to win the cup to begin with to be honest.
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all fine and good, except, you play the entire regular season to try to get favorable matchups in the playoffs. Admit it, what would you rather take as a path to the Cup....Rangers VS, Flyers in round 1, Boston in roudn 2, Penguins in round 3, and St. Louis in the finals? Or would you rather the team go....Senators in round 1, Capitals in round 2, say Devils in round 3, and say the Coyotes in the cup?


id opt for the "easier" approach. Just teams we match up agianst better....better matchups=better chance to win the cup...

i want a cup, i couldnt give a rats ass about bragging about who we beat in the 2nd round...i wanna drive up to New York and watch me a parade.

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04-28-2012, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
And let's say we lost to Ottawa. Would you think it's fair that Ottawa gets to face Washington while Philadelphia has to play New Jersey? If I was Philadelphia, I'd be pissed. Wouldn't you want to face Ottawa instead of New Jersey?
If Ottawa won, it would have been.

Flyers VS Senators
Devils VS Capitals

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04-28-2012, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
If Ottawa won, it would have been.

Flyers VS Senators
Devils VS Capitals
I know. What you said is how it really would look now using the current system. What I said was if we were using the format he suggested, which I dislike.

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04-28-2012, 12:19 AM
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I know. What you said is how it really would look now using the current system. What I said was if we were using the format he suggested, which I dislike.
what format did he suggest?

i didnt recall seeing a different format.

My format "suggestion" if you want to call it that, is for the highest remaining seed, in your scenario, the Flyers, getting to choose what team they would face, in all likelyhood, the Senators. So, in both cases, you'd get the exact same matchups.

However, things would have looked drastically different in the first round if it had gone that way.

For example.

Rangers get first pick, they choose Panthers.

Rangers VS Panthers

Boston gets next pick, they choose Senators

Bruins VS Senators

Penguins get next pick, they choose Capitals

Penguins VS Capitals

Flyers get the Devils.

Your first round would look, hypothetically, COMPLETELY different than what we saw happen, then, lets just say the Rangers, Bruins, Penguins, and Flyers all advanced, you'd have...

Rangers choose to play Flyers
Bruins get the Devils

etc.

Would be really interesting, and make for some very big bulletin board material. I just would HATE to be the guy to make that decision.


The system as it stands now is probably the best, except for the fact that the seeding is so screwed up with the division winners getting to get higher seeding despite having worse records than the teams below them.

If the teams were seeded by raw points, the matchups you would have seen would have been:

Rangers VS Senators
Penguins VS Capitals
Flyers VS Panthers
Bruins VS Devils

Again, entirely different, simply by removing the stupid divisional rankings.

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04-28-2012, 12:21 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
yeah, yeah, yeah, that's all fine and good, except, you play the entire regular season to try to get favorable matchups in the playoffs. Admit it, what would you rather take as a path to the Cup....Rangers VS, Flyers in round 1, Boston in roudn 2, Penguins in round 3, and St. Louis in the finals? Or would you rather the team go....Senators in round 1, Capitals in round 2, say Devils in round 3, and say the Coyotes in the cup?


id opt for the "easier" approach. Just teams we match up agianst better....better matchups=better chance to win the cup...

i want a cup, i couldnt give a rats ass about bragging about who we beat in the 2nd round...i wanna drive up to New York and watch me a parade.
Actually, other than the Pens, the first path is actually easier for us when you consider the regular season.

Come to think of it, I think the Pens and Devils are a wash. I think in a conference final series, each one would be tough as nails to get through in their own way. To be frank, I actually want no part of the Devils but again; if we want the cup, we have to have what it takes to get through any team in a best of 7 series.

And this year shows it. Vancouver? Boston? Pittsburgh? Where are they now? Hell, Florida even came an inch away from moving on.

Regular season, overall, means nothing come playoff time. Take Washington for example. If you think their 92 point season is indicative of how they're playing right now you're nuts. Their first 3/4 of their season and more could literally be thrown away. They've become a completely different team.

So blah blah blah all you want. Predicting a path as being 'easier' is a fools game in the current NHL, not to mention that I don't think any team truly wants to win the cup by having avoided opponents that would've truly tested them. The Cup is the hardest trophy in sports to win for a reason. It's a trophy won by warriors.

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04-28-2012, 12:23 AM
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Oh my bad. I thought we were talking about the normal brackets like the one they use in the Olympics. I suggested the same thing you did right before the playoffs started on the main boards. I think the general consensus there was that it would make the team look idiotic if they choose a team and they lose the series. There were also a few other good reasons.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...033&highlight=

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