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What kind of coach do you want?

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Old
04-25-2012, 03:00 PM
  #76
TheJuxtaposer
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Originally Posted by TealTownUSA View Post
who here agrees that this organization (viewed as a "nice" place to play) should cut the distractions, commercials, buddy buddy bs and just get a coach that can motivate and have them focused on hockey?

don't get me wrong...i do love sharkbyte and for our players to visit these sick kids in the hospital, but some of it just gotta stop. seems like they're f@#$ing around most of the time during practice. pay em to play hockey
Are you kidding me? The Sharks probably have the least amount of team-related off-ice distractions.

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04-25-2012, 04:14 PM
  #77
SJeasy
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
just let JT be a player coach
He already is. At one point, he WAS the direction for the PP. He doesn't have a wide enough vision of the team and the league. What works, what doesn't and a wide enough variety of adjustments. Getting his input/help is great, letting him run it entirely not so much.

Find the players who attack the DVDs. The guys who spend 2-3 hours on them for each opponent. (I am not sure the Sharks have any of these.) Find the guys who make suggestions for adjustments based on what they have seen. Despite not being happy with the ACs, I know the ACs do it as a job and pass on cut down versions to the players that are specific to them. It isn't just looking, it is analyzing and developing Sharks-specific counters. They also need to talk with the players who just file those DVDs in the circular receptacle. NHL coaching is more than an 8 hour/day job. It is not unreasonable to expect the players to put in at least 8 hours a day between practice, game, team review, DVDs and workouts.

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04-25-2012, 05:05 PM
  #78
Kegsey
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
He already is. At one point, he WAS the direction for the PP. He doesn't have a wide enough vision of the team and the league. What works, what doesn't and a wide enough variety of adjustments. Getting his input/help is great, letting him run it entirely not so much.

Find the players who attack the DVDs. The guys who spend 2-3 hours on them for each opponent. (I am not sure the Sharks have any of these.) Find the guys who make suggestions for adjustments based on what they have seen. Despite not being happy with the ACs, I know the ACs do it as a job and pass on cut down versions to the players that are specific to them. It isn't just looking, it is analyzing and developing Sharks-specific counters. They also need to talk with the players who just file those DVDs in the circular receptacle. NHL coaching is more than an 8 hour/day job. It is not unreasonable to expect the players to put in at least 8 hours a day between practice, game, team review, DVDs and workouts.
It seems like over the last while we'd see Pavs giving more input to Tmac than JT. I may be wrong, just always seemed like it was him a lot more this season. Most likely because he took 99% of face offs

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04-25-2012, 05:34 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Kegsey View Post
It seems like over the last while we'd see Pavs giving more input to Tmac than JT. I may be wrong, just always seemed like it was him a lot more this season. Most likely because he took 99% of face offs
If I had to bet, it would be that Pavs is the one who hits the DVDs hardest. I would also bet that he has the widest vision of hockey strategies on the team. Zeus would be my next bet for vision of general strategies. My take is that both Marleau and JT don't have a very wide general vision and probably would be the two who would benefit most from hitting the DVDs hard for the way opponents handle them. They both get hit very hard by specific opponents, repeatedly. I don't think either Marleau or JT are entirely lax; I just think that they could do more.

I give TM a lot of credit for breaking through on specific opponents that have stymied both JT and PM under RW. I do think TM has a whole lot of work to do on the team as a whole after this year as they are being stopped by more things than in the recent past.


Last edited by SJeasy: 04-25-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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04-25-2012, 05:46 PM
  #80
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meant the JT thing as a joke

i would like someone that can get inside the players heads. not sure if any of our guys are quality motivators. doesnt have to be the head coach.

agree on the DVD thing, JT was actually the only player i saw play one way this year and then change it for a time. everyone else just did the same thing every night seemed like.

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04-25-2012, 06:00 PM
  #81
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General question. Do you think TM or the next head coach should cater the system to the players, or the players picked to play in a system?

I personally think the system needs to work with the players, as a coach you should be able to see what kind of players you have and tailer a gameplan based on their abilities and not based on what you think they should do. Kind of curious if others agree or disagree with that.

Im sure someone will bring up the blues doing great because they all buy into the system and it works, but I would argue that its the system that works best for the type of players they have and not that the system itself would work with all the teams in the league, which is why the sharks allways trying to copycat what beats them each year is not working, and that they should have a coach that can find a different or original way to use the great talent the sharks do indeed have.

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04-25-2012, 06:07 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
General question. Do you think TM or the next head coach should cater the system to the players, or the players picked to play in a system?
Both with the proviso that tweaks should be tailored to the specific players. The general system has to be there before the team. Players drafted and acquired should be fits for the system.

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04-25-2012, 06:20 PM
  #83
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How much do you think coaching plays into Cup runs? Specifically, I am thinking about coaching related to defense and special teams...for the Hawks Cup run in 2010. I realize they were loaded and perhaps even circumvented the cap, but coaching had to count for something (maybe a lot?), right? Thanks.

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04-25-2012, 06:21 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Both with the proviso that tweaks should be tailored to the specific players. The general system has to be there before the team. Players drafted and acquired should be fits for the system.
Oh absolutely there needs to be a foundation of what we want to do so that players can actually be on the same page with one another.

I just mean that I dont want a coach that is given oranges, to demand lemons, cause he wants to make lemonade, i want him to use those oranges to make orange juice with the basis being he needs to make some kind of juice.

Lmao that sounds way better in my head....get the point though?

Our team is not like the blues, and even if we get a few new players next year and try to implement a blues system it wont work, might get us back to the playoffs like usual but our players, when things get rough, just dont play like that.

Its not a surprise to me that our team scores so many late goals when they kind of stop trying to play the system to a T and instead start using their own strengths and abilities more freely and some imagination gets thrown in as well. Or how our team plays way better when they have a nice lead(2-3 goals) and are not overly focused on the repercusions of trying a slick pass or try to make a defender miss at the blueline instead of just doing the safe play and dumping it in.

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04-25-2012, 06:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Oh absolutely there needs to be a foundation of what we want to do so that players can actually be on the same page with one another.

I just mean that I dont want a coach that is given oranges, to demand lemons, cause he wants to make lemonade, i want him to use those oranges to make orange juice with the basis being he needs to make some kind of juice.

Lmao that sounds way better in my head....get the point though?

Our team is not like the blues, and even if we get a few new players next year and try to implement a blues system it wont work, might get us back to the playoffs like usual but our players, when things get rough, just dont play like that.

Its not a surprise to me that our team scores so many late goals when they kind of stop trying to play the system to a T and instead start using their own strengths and abilities more freely and some imagination gets thrown in as well. Or how our team plays way better when they have a nice lead(2-3 goals) and are not overly focused on the repercusions of trying a slick pass or try to make a defender miss at the blueline instead of just doing the safe play and dumping it in.
Hitch or Tippett would be a lemonade vs orange juice issue.

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04-25-2012, 06:25 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
How much do you think coaching plays into Cup runs? Specifically, I am thinking about coaching related to defense and special teams...for the Hawks Cup run in 2010. I realize they were loaded and perhaps even circumvented the cap, but coaching had to count for something (maybe a lot?), right? Thanks.
It matters, they had a stacked team on O with some great puck moving D and played like they had those things. Wide open, clean up nemo's rebounds asap and move fast back up the ice.

If they had a coach that decided they needed to play a Blues or Preds style game once they made the playoffs they probably would not have won it and the coach would have been horrible for having tried to play the wrong system with the players he had.

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04-25-2012, 06:32 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
Hitch or Tippett would be a lemonade vs orange juice issue.
Care to elaborate a little, not entirely clear what your getting at. Do you mean that they would be the kind to demand lemons instead of making OJ?

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04-25-2012, 06:41 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Care to elaborate a little, not entirely clear what your getting at. Do you mean that they would be the kind to demand lemons instead of making OJ?
I really hope people do not latch onto these guys and think "that will solve our problems!"

It won't, the trap is garbage hockey. It wins games, but not championships. Its boring, and its bad for the sport. Also, bay area fans are fickle and would likely not watch a winning, but boring, team on the ice.

I am a huge proponent of a rule change to eliminate the trap. There is a reason Tippet and Hitchcock have bounced around the league in recent years. Their systems don't win championships and the players won't put up with it for more than a few years tops.

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04-25-2012, 06:51 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
It matters, they had a stacked team on O with some great puck moving D and played like they had those things. Wide open, clean up nemo's rebounds asap and move fast back up the ice.

If they had a coach that decided they needed to play a Blues or Preds style game once they made the playoffs they probably would not have won it and the coach would have been horrible for having tried to play the wrong system with the players he had.
Actually, I am driving at two things:

1.) Do you think the Hawks win the Cup in 2010 if they employed the Sharks passive PK system (remember, with Niemi in net)?

2.)

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2...rts/704249636/

Quote:
Hard to understand why the Hawks won a Cup with Mike Haviland in charge of the defense and special teams and then switched those responsibilities with Kitchen on board.
This season, with Kitchen in charge of special teams:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...ZhT_story.html

Quote:
Two days after the Chicago Blackhawks were eliminated from the playoffs, general manager Stan Bowman said goaltending and poor special teams play were the major obstacles to success this season.

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04-25-2012, 06:56 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I really hope people do not latch onto these guys and think "that will solve our problems!"

It won't, the trap is garbage hockey. It wins games, but not championships. Its boring, and its bad for the sport. Also, bay area fans are fickle and would likely not watch a winning, but boring, team on the ice.

I am a huge proponent of a rule change to eliminate the trap. There is a reason Tippet and Hitchcock have bounced around the league in recent years. Their systems don't win championships and the players won't put up with it for more than a few years tops.
The reason is that the trap kills pay negotiations. Players give up on optimal offensive numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dicdonya View Post
Care to elaborate a little, not entirely clear what your getting at. Do you mean that they would be the kind to demand lemons instead of making OJ?
JT, Clowe and Boyle are non-fits. Marleau is a marginal fit. Top guys get minutes cut and are pushed much harder on skating. The org would have to acquire lower line players with better offensive skills as well as defense and speed (players like Nielsen, Korpikoski, etc.). Although Winnik has defense and speed, he is sorely lacking in offense as is Mitchell.

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04-25-2012, 07:01 PM
  #91
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I want someone who's passionate, stands up for his guys, chews out the guys when they deserve to be chewed out. Maybe nothing as extreme as John Tortorella, but it wouldn't hurt.

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04-25-2012, 07:10 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by sharkie551 View Post
I want someone who's passionate, stands up for his guys, chews out the guys when they deserve to be chewed out. Maybe nothing as extreme as John Tortorella, but it wouldn't hurt.
When you combine that with someone who can actually coach, sounds like you'll be on Team Havi sooner rather than later.

We just need TMac and the AC's to get fired ASAP so we can land the guy who should have been named HC in 2008 (but we'll still take him now, as he's proven himself even further since).

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04-25-2012, 08:07 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Actually, I am driving at two things:

1.) Do you think the Hawks win the Cup in 2010 if they employed the Sharks passive PK system (remember, with Niemi in net)?

2.)

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/2...rts/704249636/



This season, with Kitchen in charge of special teams:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...ZhT_story.html
Probably not is what im saying, so a good coach would understand that and not play the passive pk unless he had some players that it for some reason worked with.

TM decided to keep it passive despite its obvious failings, just like he made no noticeable change to the system against the blues despite seeing them 4 times in the regular season and 5 more in the postseason, which is why I originally asked about whether a coach should try to cater to his players or just keep with the "system" even if its not working.

He seems, from a completely distant vantage point i must say, to have not really added any noticable wrinkles into the system to try to gain better results, his philosophy seems to be only try rotating players on different lines as a way to generate a different result without changing the gameplan. Which will obviously fail if its the system that is not working against another particular system.

In other words a good coach will find the weakness in a system, which there is in any system, and have his players exploit it until the other team changes their strategy and then you do it all over again and whomever adjusts better and has players that execute the gameplan you win.

Just doing the same thing and telling them to just execute it better will not work. It was painfully obvious that no matter how hard or how well the sharks executed their system it was not working, we as fans already were worried about that exact thing before we even played game 1. Why as fans can we notice that our system flat out blows against another teams yet the coach did not seem to get that?

The way thornton played you know he was 110% trying his hardest out there and is our best player and STILL just about every single time he had time or space there was NO play for him to even make, which led to him either going back into the cycle or trying to force something. When our best player is trying his hardest to play in the system and still just cannot get a whole lot going, that really tells me something is wrong with the system, Joe will find open players and atleast get the puck to them, the number of gorgeous chances were crazy small during the whole series. You cant as a coach see that 9 games and still not find any sort of way to get more offense going. I know the blues have a very good system that is tailored to shut teams down, but some teams did light them up for a good amount of goals. Maybe see what they did that worked well and find a way to incorporate it in your game.

I dont know i just saw almost zero imagination in our game this year and thats very frustrating to see when we have so much offensive talent on this team. All of this is obviously only assumption since I have no idea what TM did at practices or said during intermissions to try and change the gameplan up, he could for all i know have been throwing changes out left and right and the players just did not execute them. However with the number of times I heard "we just gotta stick with the system and execute better" by the players and coaches all year long i really dont think any realativly major changes occured period to period or even game to game.

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Old
04-28-2012, 11:29 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by goofman View Post
If the Sharks played the style of hockey next season that the Blues have played this season, that would be unbearable. Whether or not it would result in a cup would be a moot point, as I don't think that I'd have it in me to slog it through 82 regular season games + playoffs of that system.
The Blues style of hockey may be boring to watch but at least they don't play the 1-3-1 lol. Also I think I could watch 82 games of that + playoffs if it results in a cup. I'll do anything for them to win a cup at this point man lol. By the way do you agree that the Sharks have the right defense and offense to play that style that the Blues play and make it work?

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04-29-2012, 12:11 AM
  #95
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The Blues style of hockey may be boring to watch but at least they don't play the 1-3-1 lol. Also I think I could watch 82 games of that + playoffs if it results in a cup. I'll do anything for them to win a cup at this point man lol. By the way do you agree that the Sharks have the right defense and offense to play that style that the Blues play and make it work?
Not a chance. The Sharks don't have the top 6 speed to match the Blues. Nor do they have the same commitment to defense from all of the forwards. Blues style does not generally result in a cup these days. The Blues style includes incredible discipline which few teams can match (and may prove to be the downfall of the Blues themselves). On a player by player basis, the Sharks defense is comparable to the Blues.

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