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Foster Hewitt Divisonal Finals: Inglewood vs. Australia

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Old
04-28-2012, 01:25 PM
  #51
BenchBrawl
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I've noticed the absurd overrating of Reggie Leach in my series against Australia.

Also making arguments like : ''He has six 30 goals season'' is pretty much a fraud based on the ''wow factor''.The relativity of 30 goals seasons is important to considered.It wasn't that impressive back then.


Last edited by BenchBrawl: 04-28-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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04-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Leach an edge over Mogilny? Roflcopter.

Check the points finishes and percentages (no, not just goals); I doubt Leach is even close to Demitra either, and Demitra didn't play with Bobby Clarke.
Mogilny was never that good in the post-season, perhaps I'm a little biased towards Leach, but I really don't see him that far off from Mogilny.

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04-28-2012, 04:40 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
A better scoring winger than Leach as one of your spares? Listen, I really do like Demitra, and he is one of my favorite players of all time, but that's a pretty absurd claim to make that he was a better goalscorer than Leach. What do you have to back that up?
I meant a better scoring winger in the sense of a better winger for a scoring line, not just as a goal scorer. I definitely could have made that clearer.

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04-28-2012, 05:25 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post

Fedorov, despite not being on Clarke's level of play-making, he was still recognized as a top playmaker during his career.
I know that Fedorov finished 1st two times in the playoff assists-wise , but how is a guy recognized as a top playmaker during his career ( 19 seasons in the NHL ) only had a 9th in assist as far as top 10 goes? To me it doesn't seems like Fedorov was as brilliant playmaking wise as you make it out to be , and Leach wasn't as good of a goal scorer or point producer either.

Both players had fantastic playoff resume , but you seem to completely ignore their poor regular season offensive resume , which should count for something , and in their case , is a negative offensively compared to their playoffs.

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04-28-2012, 05:33 PM
  #55
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Yeah, Fedorov was a fantastic offensive player in the post-season, but he wasn't anything special in the regular season.

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04-28-2012, 05:39 PM
  #56
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It's interesting that Charlie Conacher is the top offensive threat on Australia's top line, yet both his linemates played with an even better offensive RW in their prime. And Conacher himself arguably had better linemates IRL than he does here.

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04-28-2012, 05:43 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
It's interesting that Charlie Conacher is the top offensive threat on Australia's top line, yet both his linemates played with an even better offensive RW in their prime. And Conacher himself arguably had better linemates IRL than he does here.
I don't think the second one is arguable. Francis is basically Joe Primeau with more longevity IMO, but Shutt is nowhere near the offensive force that Busher Jackson was in his (relatively short) prime.

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04-28-2012, 06:05 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't think the second one is arguable. Francis is basically Joe Primeau with more longevity IMO, but Shutt is nowhere near the offensive force that Busher Jackson was in his (relatively short) prime.
I basically agree, just don't want to overstate my certainty.

You could argue that every member of Australia's first line had better linemates at their peak than they do in the ATD.

Shutt: Lemaire-Lafleur vs Francis-Conacher
Francis: Nedved-Jagr vs Shutt-Conacher
Conacher: Jackson-Primeau vs Shutt-Francis

You see this with players from the 50s Canadiens a lot, and other dynasty lines to a lesser extent.

Actually, you might be able to say the same about both of Inglewood's top two lines. Inglewood has reunited two C-RW combos that were each other's best linemates IRL. So is Gretzky-Kurri better off with Watson than they were with Tikkanen? Is Northcott a better LW than Andreychuk for the Lafontaine-Mogilny duo? But certainly neither Watson or Northcott ever played with offensive players of the calibre that they are paired with now.

Edit: Just realized all of Australia's second line forwards arguably had better linemates IRL than here (Lewis-Barry-Aurie, Shanahan-Fedorov-Yzerman, Barber-Clarke-Leach.) So maybe it's not so uncommon.


Last edited by overpass: 04-28-2012 at 06:11 PM.
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04-28-2012, 11:56 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BenchBrawl View Post
I know that Fedorov finished 1st two times in the playoff assists-wise , but how is a guy recognized as a top playmaker during his career ( 19 seasons in the NHL ) only had a 9th in assist as far as top 10 goes? To me it doesn't seems like Fedorov was as brilliant playmaking wise as you make it out to be , and Leach wasn't as good of a goal scorer or point producer either.

Both players had fantastic playoff resume , but you seem to completely ignore their poor regular season offensive resume , which should count for something , and in their case , is a negative offensively compared to their playoffs.
Yes, but we are in the playoffs aren't we? I think it's a serious point of interest that some players were known to ignite their game in the playoffs, that simply weren't that good in the regular season.

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04-29-2012, 12:16 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Yes, but we are in the playoffs aren't we? I think it's a serious point of interest that some players were known to ignite their game in the playoffs, that simply weren't that good in the regular season.
even if you are in the playoff , this doesn't mean we only take playoff into account.You know fairly well we draft player for their all around resume , if we would believe in this mentality we would exclusively draft player for their playoff and players like Dionne would get picked in the 7th round.


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04-29-2012, 12:28 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Mogilny was never that good in the post-season, perhaps I'm a little biased towards Leach, but I really don't see him that far off from Mogilny.
Let's pretend that Leach didn't play with Clarke and in a higher scoring era and just look at raw point totals in his best seasons: 91, 78, 76, 70. These are actually the only seasons in which he had more than 54 points. Mogilny's best seasons: 127, 107, 84, 83, 79, 79, 73, plus a 64 and 57 in injury-shortened years, and 47 in 1995 which is 82 in a full season.

Put another way: Leach averaged better than 0.72 PPG in a season 4 times: 1.14, 1.00, 0.98, 0.89. Mogilny was over a point per game 8 times, and over 0.72 another 7 times.

Onto adjusted: I realize adjusted numbers might be too nice to players from Mogilny's era, but this is pretty telling. Mogilny has 1054 adjusted points in 990 games; Leach has 572 in 934. Mogilny has nearly twice as many, in not many more games. It's actually 74% more per game.

As for the playoffs, Leach did have that one awesome year, and Mogilny doesn't really have that defining season, but he actually has the edge in career-long production. I would definitely prefer a guy who got 0.69 PPG over 124 games from 1990-2004, over a guy who had 0.73 over 93 games from 1971-1981.

It's up to the individual voter how much it matters that Leach's 0.73 represents a 3% increase from his regular season production, and Mogilny drops 34% in the playoffs. To me, it basically means that the gap is slightly lessened in the playoffs. Instead of scoring an adjusted 74% more in the regular season, Mogilny only scores an adjusted 10% more or so. That doesn't mean I think the difference is just 10% now. We shouldn't be entirely forgetting regular season play; it still constitutes 90% of the career games for each player. But we should weigh it less. So the difference in potential production should be between 10% and 74%, but much closer to 74%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Yes, but we are in the playoffs aren't we? I think it's a serious point of interest that some players were known to ignite their game in the playoffs, that simply weren't that good in the regular season.
Yes, Fedorov is getting a rough ride from the "rankings" crowd since he had ten seasons with 62-87 points that don't make that "top-10" cutoff that is so important to some people. I think he is a pretty solid 2nd line scorer in the ATD, not great, but passable. Ron Francis territory. But he should be seen as a player who gets better in the postseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arrbez
I meant a better scoring winger in the sense of a better winger for a scoring line, not just as a goal scorer. I definitely could have made that clearer.
I know the point production part of it is a no-brainer, but it's not as far off in goals as you may think.

Leach's best adjusted goals seasons: 53 42 39 28 28 26 21 21 21
Demitra's: 42 41 40 31 27 26 25 25 22

that actually adds up to the same number over their best 9 years.

assists, of course, is a different story. Demitra has over twice as many adjusted assists in fewer games. Demitra held up better over time, too, with 13 more adjusted goals in 100 fewer games. You are absolutely right that he's the better player; Leach's only edges are one-season regular season and playoff goalscoring peaks that are far superior, and they happened in the same season.

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04-30-2012, 01:16 PM
  #62
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Fourth Lines

Bernie Nicholls is a good player to have for offensive purposes, I don't think he'll be much of a factor at ES. Ezinicki is a good defensive player that can hit, my bad on thinking Murdoch was the third line winger, I forgot about Lonsberry. My thoughts on Murdoch above.

Derek Sanderson and Louis Berlinguette are a tenacious checking duo that will see some of Gretzky and Kurri. Sanderson was decent offensively, and Berlinguette wasn't terrible. Leo Labine can be physical, and chip in goals as well.

Australia holds a defensive edge, while Inglewood holds an offensive edge.

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04-30-2012, 01:21 PM
  #63
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First Pairings

Denis Potvin is the best out of all four of the defensemen by a fair margin. Leetch is not a very good #1, he is good offensively and pretty good defensively, but not a good shutdown guy, compared to especially Potvin, he is underwhelming as a #1. He has a good partner in Moose Johnson, a decent #2, who is a better shutdown defenseman. They complement each other pretty nicely, but I think the Jacks' corps lacks a good top guy. Bob Baun is the worst defenseman of the four, but makes for a strong stay-at-home guy, so that when Potvin has opportunities, Baun will always be back for him.

Inglewood holds a slight advantage on the first pairing, I like Leetch, but not as a number one, still a good pairing that should not be a liability by any stretch.

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04-30-2012, 01:25 PM
  #64
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Raptor, you're sending the 4th line out against Gretzky? How much ice time do you see giving them? More than the third line?

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04-30-2012, 01:25 PM
  #65
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Second Pairings

Boucher is a very good #3, and the best of the four. Watson is a solid defensive defensemen, which can create more opportunities for Buck.

Doug Mohns is a good two-way guy, and works well as a #3, paired next to Randy Carlyle who is the offensive component on the pairing.

Inglewood holds an advantage on the second pairings

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04-30-2012, 01:27 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Raptor, you're sending the 4th line out against Gretzky? How much ice time do you see giving them? More than the third line?
It's one of the lines that will oppose Gretzky, predominantly my second and third will be matching up Gretzky, but in games we won't be getting desired matchups, the fourth line will see some time. I'm not expecting the fourth line to play more than the third line, just pointing out they are a viable option to matchup with Inglewood's top-heavy line.

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04-30-2012, 01:35 PM
  #67
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Third Pairings

Lloyd Cook seems to be a decent defensive guy as well as a puck rusher, I think he's probably a step above Battleship Leduc, similar players. Timonen is a decent puck-moving guy who plays responsibly in his own end, however he isn't physical nor does he have the ability of defending bigger, stronger players.

Ken Morrow is a solid defensive defenseman, paired with Albert Leduc who is decent defensively and could rush the puck as well.

I think Morrow is the best defensemen of the four, so I'll call these pairings even

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04-30-2012, 01:42 PM
  #68
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And that's it for me, I realize this may be the end of the road for me, but here are a few reasons why I believe the Australia Mighty Roos could upset the Inglewood Jacks.

- Better goaltending, a proven starter in the post-season who played substantially better in the playoffs, and has the ability to steal a game.
- Good chemistry throughout the team, all four lines able to play responsible defensive hockey, all while being offensive threats, namely the top-six.
- A series of centre/left wing combinations that can attempt to shut down the Jacks' superstar duo, Gretzky and Kurri. (Lewis/Fedorov, Lambert/Holik and Berlinguette/Sanderson)
- Best defenseman in the series, Denis Potvin who will play at his best defensively to try and shut down Gretzky to the best of his ability.
- Coaching that fits the style of the team, allowing them to play a tight-checking, defensive game of hockey, while also being able to chip in offensively.
- A much stronger defensive group than the opposition, that will eventually wear them down.
- A team built for the playoffs, all of Australias' key players were known to elevate or maintain their play in the post-season, that resulted in an collective 47 Stanley Cups, and a total of 71 Finals appearances.

Best of luck to you, arrbez.

If anybody has any questions for me, I will answer them before voting begins.


Last edited by Velociraptor: 04-30-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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04-30-2012, 01:44 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Third Pairings

Lloyd Cook seems to be a decent defensive guy as well as a puck rusher, I think he's probably a step above Battleship Leduc, similar players. Timonen is a decent puck-moving guy who plays responsibly in his own end, however he isn't physical nor does he have the ability of defending bigger, stronger players.

Ken Morrow is a solid defensive defenseman, paired with Albert Leduc who is decent defensively and could rush the puck as well.

I think Morrow is the best defensemen of the four, so I'll call these pairings even
Lloyd Cook is the best of the four.

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04-30-2012, 01:50 PM
  #70
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Lloyd Cook is the best of the four.
Rather than just making a statement like that, could you explain as to how he is the best?

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04-30-2012, 01:57 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Rather than just making a statement like that, could you explain as to how he is the best?
NP made a wonderful bio on Lloyd Cook before, I think the last ATD. Here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=121

Cook was considered the best defenseman/player in the world for a bit, I believe.

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04-30-2012, 02:11 PM
  #72
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Cook was considered the best defenseman/player in the world for a bit, I believe.
Cook was apparently a great player, but this is a major oversell.

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04-30-2012, 02:13 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Cook was apparently a great player, but this is a major oversell.
Hey, I'm just the messenger.

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04-30-2012, 03:00 PM
  #74
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Quote:
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NP made a wonderful bio on Lloyd Cook before, I think the last ATD. Here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=121

Cook was considered the best defenseman/player in the world for a bit, I believe.
No, when he was Vancouver's #1 d-man, Moose was the best of the west. When Moose declined, Art Duncan became Vancouver's #1, and Joe Simpson emerged in Alberta.

While out east, Gerard, Cleghorn, Boucher, Joe Hall and possibly others were better.

Lloyd Cook was more like the Bill White of his era, one of the best for 5+ years, but never the best. I liken him to Teppo Numminen with better grit, mobility and leadership. In the ATD, he's a mid-low end #4, elite #5.

Edit: But Numminen had a better shot.

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05-04-2012, 12:38 PM
  #75
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Inglewood takes it in 7 hard fought games. Good work, guys.

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