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ECSF Game 2: Caps at Rangers 730 PM at MSG

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05-01-2012, 08:33 AM
  #901
txpd
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Somewhere in between.

I hate the strategy because one of the more important Ovechkin playoff aspects is his ability to wear down the defense. Nobody else intimidates them like he does. We saw it with Seidenberg--he let up on the physical play as the series went on because of the pounding he took from Ovie. That physical impact is especially important against a team like the Rangers that really shortens up their defensive bench and relies heavily on a few guys.
hunter used ov as a weapon v boston because the games were largely tied and because boston's wants to intimidate. rangers are different and the caps had the lead in game 2 from 12 minutes of the 1st period to 7 minutes of the 3rd. caps didnt have a lead like that v boston.

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05-01-2012, 08:34 AM
  #902
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hunter used ov as a weapon v boston because the games were largely tied and because boston's wants to intimidate. rangers are different and the caps had the lead in game 2 from 12 minutes of the 1st period to 7 minutes of the 3rd. caps didnt have a lead like that v boston.
Yes, I'm aware of Hunter's supposed reasoning.

I still hate it.

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05-01-2012, 08:35 AM
  #903
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Ovechkin with 7 shots last night, almost a third of the teams shots. Hunter making Ovie hungry, Ovie responding.

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05-01-2012, 08:37 AM
  #904
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Yes, I'm aware of Hunter's supposed reasoning.

I still hate it.
i am with you.

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05-01-2012, 08:39 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Ref9 View Post
Ovechkin with 7 shots last night, almost a third of the teams shots. Hunter making Ovie hungry, Ovie responding.
i dont think so. if ov were responding, he would not have been stapled to the bench after scoring the gwg. he had a good game. had he played a little the caps might have won the game by a couple of goals.

dale's game plan is to win by one goal. stay even as long as possible. get a lead when the opportunity arises and then hold it.

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05-01-2012, 08:43 AM
  #906
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Ovechkin with 7 shots last night, almost a third of the teams shots. Hunter making Ovie hungry, Ovie responding.
In past playoffs, has Ovie appeared less hungry? The guy has the 2nd highest playoff ppg average of any active player. I'd contend that hunger has never been an issue. DH hasn't flipped some magical switch by giving him less ice time. People just need to give some sort of reasoning to Hunter's ice time distribution. The defense issue I can see. The hunger issue? There never was one.

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05-01-2012, 08:43 AM
  #907
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Let's play our star player and make him happy instead of winning???

Nonsense. Ovi is a defensive liability in this system and if we win like this why are people complaining?

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05-01-2012, 08:44 AM
  #908
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You play a guy a ton of minutes when you have no choice. Playing guys less preserves their legs for the long playoff grind, and is a luxury you can afford when you are in tight games and are not constantly trailing. It's doubly sensible if you have other players that are more conscientious in their own zone.

When I look at Hunter and Ovechkin, I see Hunter wanting to get to a point when he uses Ovechkin like Hitchcock used Modano, circa 1998-1999 and 1999-2000.

Ovechkin isn't quite there yet on his dedication to the two-way game. When that does happen, his minutes will rise. I don't know if Ovechkin is angry about his minutes, so much as he is waiting to see if it works. Players are motivated to get paid. I absolutely think players care about ice time solely because they care about their numbers, which is a conduit to getting that payday. Ovechkin has already been paid. All he really wants now is to add a Cup to his trophy case, and then look ahead to Sochi, so he isn't trailing Crosby anymore. He wants his respect back in the hockey community. He had it and he lost it, and he wants that back. He gets it back by winning the two championships that have eluded him.

As long as Ovechkin thinks that #Hunterhockey might just be the way to get a championship, he's on board, no matter how little fun it is to play that kind of hockey. If that faith wanes, then sure, we're liable to see some kind of explosion.

Can you manage talent that way indefinitely? Perhaps not, but so what? If they can win a Cup, blow it all up afterwards. They'll have won a Cup. No one in Chicago begrudges the way that team was built for that one run, damn the future consequences, because it worked and the team won the Cup. The goal isn't harmony, or stability in the future, but the Cup in the present. Asset management isn't a goal, but a means to get closer to your goal. Trying to win right now might mean the coach isn't beloved, but respected enough to get temporary buy in.

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05-01-2012, 09:02 AM
  #909
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Just like BB's approach to outscore everyone wasn't a sustainable playoff business model, I don't see DH's approach as being the answer either.

Nashville has tried the defense first, one-goal win method in the past, with players much more suited to that game, and failed. Beaten by better all-around teams. Maybe those teams don't exist in the East this year. Maybe the Caps won't run into this year's version of Sean Bergenheim or maybe someone like Chimera will be this year's Bergenheim. The guy who scores goals by throwing them out front and having a defenseman kick it into the net. Maybe they won't have the injury bug bite them. Maybe the same hockey gods that saw Bergeron whiff on an empty net will continue to be on their side. The Caps are due for some of that. Sometimes luck overcomes coaching, both good or bad.

The thought of the Caps facing off against the Coyotes or Kings though, both of whom play HunterHockey much better than the Caps do, should be enough to give fans bad feelings.

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05-01-2012, 09:08 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by fsnoles98 View Post
Let's play our star player and make him happy instead of winning???

Nonsense. Ovi is a defensive liability in this system and if we win like this why are people complaining?
i am not complaining. i am saying that this approach is causing and will continue to cause a conflict between the capitals and their franchise player.

ovechkin isnt going to approve this for the long run and the action he will take will either be to apply himself with great effort to change his game because he wants to stay or agree that he and his game no longer fit into the capitals game plan and ask to be traded.

this situation may well turn out wonderfully, but the capitals are holding a grenade with the pin pulled and even if they win they are risking losing the golden goose.

or you can look at it another way. if the caps make the scf, ov will see the light. if they lose this round ov explodes. i dont recall you thinking the caps had much of a chance in these playoffs. is that a risk that should pass on by as no big deal?

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05-01-2012, 09:09 AM
  #911
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I know I am not the only one that saw Dale had changed things up. He was more aggressive offensively. He opened it up. Defensemen were active in the offensive zone, yes with a lead. The shot totals reflect a more open game last night.

No, opening it up is not all about ramping up Ovi's ice time. Its a team wide approach. Torts is still looking for Ovi to get his dmen out. Dale laughs as heads explode.

Girardi: Coach, what do we do if Ovi isn't out there?
Torts: Just play goddammit.

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05-01-2012, 09:11 AM
  #912
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In general, I hate the approach of trying not to lose. Try to win. If you're up by one, do you need to play Ovie every other shift? No. But roll all four lines. Play him a regular shift. Try to go for the throat and get an insurance goal.

I mean, his defensive issues were never a problem in the playoffs before--because the defense backed off of him at the first sign of a possible breakout, so as not to be beaten. Get him rolling offensively again, and that starts to happen. It's just as effective at limiting the other team's offensive cycle as playing a checking line absurd minutes.

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05-01-2012, 09:13 AM
  #913
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
ovechkin isnt going to approve this for the long run and the action he will take will either be to apply himself with great effort to change his game because he wants to stay or agree that he and his game no longer fit into the capitals game plan and ask to be traded.

this situation may well turn out wonderfully, but the capitals are holding a grenade with the pin pulled and even if they win they are risking losing the golden goose.
Ironclad, guaranteed NHL contracts work both ways.

Ovechkin is under contract. If the golden goose gets away, it's because they cave, and take off the chain around its neck. He can ask for a trade and they can refuse, countering that he can go when he's 35. He can sit out and forego millions... but he won't. He can't support his lavish lifestyle on principled righteousness. He knows it, they know it, he knows they know it, and they know he knows they know it.

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05-01-2012, 09:13 AM
  #914
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Can you manage talent that way indefinitely? Perhaps not, but so what? If they can win a Cup, blow it all up afterwards. They'll have won a Cup. No one in Chicago begrudges the way that team was built for that one run, damn the future consequences, because it worked and the team won the Cup. The goal isn't harmony, or stability in the future, but the Cup in the present. Asset management isn't a goal, but a means to get closer to your goal. Trying to win right now might mean the coach isn't beloved, but respected enough to get temporary buy in.
actually, my take on the chicago fans is that the cup has worn off and wore off last season when they were bounced in the first round. this season after another first round exit they are very unhappy.

the glow is short lived

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05-01-2012, 09:15 AM
  #915
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
Ironclad, guaranteed NHL contracts work both ways.

Ovechkin is under contract. If the golden goose gets away, it's because they cave, and take off the chain around its neck. He can ask for a trade and they can refuse, countering that he can go when he's 35. He can sit out and forego millions... but he won't. He can't support his lifestyle on principled righteousness.
you are smarter than that, my friend. how well does that work out as a rule? keeping a player that doesnt want to be there any more and then sitting him on the bench? that is all kinds of ugly.

if he doesnt want to play this kind of hockey and doesnt want to sit on the bench and says he wants out, he gets out. otherwise leonsis might as well just tell him to stay home.

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05-01-2012, 09:15 AM
  #916
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I know I am not the only one that saw Dale had changed things up. He was more aggressive offensively. He opened it up. Defensemen were active in the offensive zone, yes with a lead. The shot totals reflect a more open game last night.

No, opening it up is not all about ramping up Ovi's ice time. Its a team wide approach. Torts is still looking for Ovi to get his dmen out. Dale laughs as heads explode.

Girardi: Coach, what do we do if Ovi isn't out there?
Torts: Just play goddammit.
I agree that the defensemen were much more active last night. Carlson especially was moving forward all night. More pinches on pucks that looked like 50/50 propositions.

The second point is downright laughable. Girardi is still playing 27 minutes per game. He just gets to play them against 3rd liners instead of Ovechkin. I fail to see how that is a negative for the Rangers. I don't see Torts looking around and giving Stu Bickel big minutes because he's waiting for Ovie to hop over the boards. He knows that if the Caps have the lead he doesn't have to worry about saving his horses.

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05-01-2012, 09:18 AM
  #917
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I know I am not the only one that saw Dale had changed things up. He was more aggressive offensively. He opened it up. Defensemen were active in the offensive zone, yes with a lead. The shot totals reflect a more open game last night.

No, opening it up is not all about ramping up Ovi's ice time. Its a team wide approach. Torts is still looking for Ovi to get his dmen out. Dale laughs as heads explode.

Girardi: Coach, what do we do if Ovi isn't out there?
Torts: Just play goddammit.
you think torts is upset that hunter wont put ovechkin on the ice? seriously?

@Stewie....actually girardi only played 20:35 last. in part because they were behind a lot and in part because ov not playing gave him the flexibility of throwing del zotto out there for 27 minutes trying to catch up

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05-01-2012, 09:19 AM
  #918
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And those 3rd liners score.... heads explode. Even caps fans!

What do you think the rags game plan is for Ovi at 13 TOI.

yes he is upset, because he lost. he game planned for a ghost, that scored anyways. hahaha

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05-01-2012, 09:20 AM
  #919
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What Ovechkin is far more likely to do is get Hunter canned, long before he seeks a trade. There is long and illustrious tradition of coach and player at loggerheads, and player winning. I see no reason that would change. The key is that Hunter knows it and doesn't care. He gets canned, he heads back to Ontario and continues running the Knights with family. He's not desperate to remain a coach. Now Boudreau, you could just tell he wanted nothing more, once he had made it, than to remain one of the 30 lucky guys who get to coach a NHL team. Having made it, he loved it and loves it, and wants to do what it takes to keep it. Being a NHL coach is everything to him.

Hunter? He's like a Sutter. Fire him, and he goes back to manage the farm in Alberta. The back forty needs attention anyway.

Don't care, and you have a bit more freedom to challenge superstars. That's also what is happening at the moment. Hunter isn't going to be cowed by the traditional superstar threat to get the coach fired (since coaches are like Kleenex and replaceable, while superstars are precious). Ovechkin has his money so he's willing to forego ice time and thereby numbers to see if he can win this way.

It won't be a truce that lasts forever, but it doesn't end in Armageddon. It ends in success or a new coach. Ovechkin will be here until he's 35, either way. Leonsis won't trade him, for marketing purposes if nothing else.


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05-01-2012, 09:20 AM
  #920
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Considering all the punishment Girardi takes, I'm sure Torts is happy to be able to limit him to ~20 minutes.

That's a win for the Rangers.

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05-01-2012, 09:28 AM
  #921
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
And those 3rd liners score.... heads explode. Even caps fans!

What do you think the rags game plan is for Ovi at 13 TOI.

yes he is upset, because he lost. he game planned for a ghost, that scored anyways. hahaha
he's mad because he lost. yes.

he;s mad because ov beat them. yes.

his way of shutting down ovechkin is to get his best defense out against him all the time. getting the other coach to leave him on the bench is even better though. he cant score from there.

the 3rd line scoring? he skated 5 d in that game and not because girardi was waiting on ov. the 4th line scored because he let bickel skate. your kind of player iirc. 3 minutes and a goal against. oops. girardi skated 7 more even strenth minutes than ovechkin, in case you didnt notice. he was out there all the time anyway.

if torts gave huntsie the ov matchup dale wanted, dale would have left ov on the bench

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05-01-2012, 09:31 AM
  #922
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you think torts is upset that hunter wont put ovechkin on the ice? seriously?

@Stewie....actually girardi only played 20:35 last. in part because they were behind a lot and in part because ov not playing gave him the flexibility of throwing del zotto out there for 27 minutes trying to catch up
So, like NBTW mentioned, Girardi played more than 6 minutes less than his average and a much larger percentage of those minutes were against grinders than anyone would have expected. They were able to save his legs for when they need him for 30 minutes. That's a positive for the Rangers. The Caps can't possibly expect to be ahead or tied for as much as they have been so far.

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05-01-2012, 09:31 AM
  #923
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I didn't know tx had inside access to ovi's head.

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05-01-2012, 09:34 AM
  #924
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So, like NBTW mentioned, Girardi played more than 6 minutes less than his average and a much larger percentage of those minutes were against grinders than anyone would have expected. They were able to save his legs for when they need him for 30 minutes. That's a positive for the Rangers. The Caps can't possibly expect to be ahead or tied for as much as they have been so far.
no, i agree. i was just pointing out what rh would have pointed out about the 27 minutes. ov vaporized that player in 5 playoff games last season.

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05-01-2012, 09:34 AM
  #925
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And those 3rd liners score.... heads explode. Even caps fans!

What do you think the rags game plan is for Ovi at 13 TOI.

yes he is upset, because he lost. he game planned for a ghost, that scored anyways. hahaha
I haven't seen anyone's head explode when a 3rd liner scores a goal. I do see people questioning if that is something that is sustainable when the apparent goal of the coach is to win one goal games.

Why do you keep talking about game planning for a star player getting 13 minutes of ice time. If Torts were to design the Caps game plan, this would be it.

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