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Old
03-14-2006, 10:09 AM
  #1
SickNice
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Individual Goal Droughts

The lack of scoring has been beaten to death. But I know that some of our players haven't scored in a loooong time. Dominic Moore, whom I am a big fan of, is one of the guys coming to my mind as not having scored in a long while. Anyone know when he last scored? Similarly, what about Ortmeyer, Hossa, Poti, etc?

I know the players I listed aren't supposed to net 20-30 goals a year, but they are supposed to net a few. Anyone?

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03-14-2006, 10:10 AM
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Staka was in a huge drought before last game.

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03-14-2006, 03:06 PM
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It's one reason why I don't personally think Moore and Orts are long term players.

I think they bring energy, hustle and passion but especially offensivly I just think they're going to be overtaken by better, younger players who can do what they do and more.

I like both of them, but I do think they tend to be a little overrated.

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03-14-2006, 03:14 PM
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agreed, im a little suprised Moore hasnt done more, half his points are empty net goals, he seemed to have decent playmaking in the AHL

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03-14-2006, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
It's one reason why I don't personally think Moore and Orts are long term players.

I think they bring energy, hustle and passion but especially offensivly I just think they're going to be overtaken by better, younger players who can do what they do and more.

I like both of them, but I do think they tend to be a little overrated.
I think for Moore, this is his first year in the NHL and is more worried about being defensively responsible. I have seen flashes of offensive ability but more often than not he makes the safe play. I think alot of these guys will be more confident and better next year. Ortmeyer will always be a great defensive forward, shot blocker, penatly killer extreme. One spot on the roster should be reserved for him. I don't think anyone in our organization can do what he does.

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Old
03-14-2006, 04:16 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
It's one reason why I don't personally think Moore and Orts are long term players.

I think they bring energy, hustle and passion but especially offensivly I just think they're going to be overtaken by better, younger players who can do what they do and more.

I like both of them, but I do think they tend to be a little overrated.
I've said that Ortmeyer has been overrated for a while now.

What's so frustrating, is the have been creating opportunities but there is just zero scoring touch.

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03-14-2006, 05:02 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
I've said that Ortmeyer has been overrated for a while now.

What's so frustrating, is the have been creating opportunities but there is just zero scoring touch.
I can't agree with you on this one. Although Ortmeyer does not score goals or dish out assists, he isn't brought in for that. He is brought in to kill penatlies and provide some energy for this team. I don't think any of us expect him to score goals, which i feel like is the definition of overrated. I admit, he is not a great player, but I just don't think overrated is the right term to describe him, b/c expectations of him werent that high in the first place.

Perhaps offensively challenged?

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Old
03-14-2006, 05:12 PM
  #8
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Edge...

I think Moore can be long term as a fourth liner with PK time. In other words, 8-10 minutes per game. The question is, do you have Betts and Moore as your bottom two centers. Two inept scorers isn't going to get you anywhere. They're great defensively, but you still need to outscore your opponent. We saw this team go on a tear when Betts went down. The third line scored. I'd love to call-up Immonen tomorrow to center Ward and Prucha and see if offense can be generated without missing a defensive beat (again, while Betts was down, the defense didn't suffer one bit).

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03-14-2006, 05:31 PM
  #9
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I think for Moore, this is his first year in the NHL and is more worried about being defensively responsible. I have seen flashes of offensive ability but more often than not he makes the safe play.
That seems to be his MO, despite flashes he just isn't a scorer. Wasn't at Hartford, isn't at the NHL.

Personally I just don't think he's going to be a scorer. Now that isn't a bad thing, but I think the Rangers have kids in their system who can do what he does AND pop in more points if they develop.


Quote:
I think alot of these guys will be more confident and better next year. Ortmeyer will always be a great defensive forward, shot blocker, penatly killer extreme. One spot on the roster should be reserved for him. I don't think anyone in our organization can do what he does.
To some extent, but I also think the board tends to want players be something they aren't and that somehow time will change that. I like what Ortmeyer does but with all due respect it's not really rare and it's not something unique that this team doesn't already have in their system.

I think people are attatched to these guys because it's a change of pace from recent years but the reality is that they are going to be 26 and 28 respectivly heading into next season. What you see is close to what you get and what they've got isn't irreplaceable in our system.

Now I'm not saying this team is going to move them just for the sake of moving them, I just wouldn't go out and by a jersey and expect them to be here for the longer haul.

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03-14-2006, 05:37 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundqvist102
I can't agree with you on this one. Although Ortmeyer does not score goals or dish out assists, he isn't brought in for that. He is brought in to kill penatlies and provide some energy for this team. I don't think any of us expect him to score goals, which i feel like is the definition of overrated. I admit, he is not a great player, but I just don't think overrated is the right term to describe him, b/c expectations of him werent that high in the first place.

Perhaps offensively challenged?
I think the overrated part just comes that seem people seem to think he's irreplaceable. He's a good defensive player and he hustles, but really that's about it in terms of skills.

Some people want to name him captain and keep him no matter what. Now I'm not looking to get rid of him, I just think that the Rangers have so many players who are bottom 6 players in the system, are very good at that role and provide some scoring that he probably won't last over the long haul.

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03-14-2006, 05:39 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
I think Moore can be long term as a fourth liner with PK time. In other words, 8-10 minutes per game. The question is, do you have Betts and Moore as your bottom two centers. Two inept scorers isn't going to get you anywhere. They're great defensively, but you still need to outscore your opponent. We saw this team go on a tear when Betts went down. The third line scored. I'd love to call-up Immonen tomorrow to center Ward and Prucha and see if offense can be generated without missing a defensive beat (again, while Betts was down, the defense didn't suffer one bit).
Oh don't get me wrong, I think Moore is good as a fourth liner. I have no questions or problems with that.

Personally though, I think he might have a hard time lasting over the long haul because of who the Rangers system has within it.

As time goes on, it's a good possibility that a younger, cheaper and just as good (maybe better) will come along.

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03-14-2006, 05:41 PM
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Edge...

the question would be what would the expectation be for a guy getting 12 minutes per game, about 2-3 of which is killing penalties? I look at Ottawa and Mike Kelly, who's the same age as Moore, has similar minutes and similar stats. Moore's around a 10 goal/20 point guy. Is that enough for a fourth line? Would it be so noticeable if the third line guy had more points? Moore's about a +5. Not bad for a guy who's not scoring much (Betts is -3). Perhaps there are better guys in Hartford, but again, it's a fourth line playing mostly with Hollweg and Ortmeyer, with a smattering of Hossa, Orr, etc. What's the realistic expectation? I don't have an answer, personally. Perhaps I should look at Moore's concentration of points, but to compare, I'd have to do that for everybody, and that's a lotta work.

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03-14-2006, 05:49 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
the question would be what would the expectation be for a guy getting 12 minutes per game, about 2-3 of which is killing penalties? I look at Ottawa and Mike Kelly, who's the same age as Moore, has similar minutes and similar stats. Moore's around a 10 goal/20 point guy. Is that enough for a fourth line? Would it be so noticeable if the third line guy had more points? Moore's about a +5. Not bad for a guy who's not scoring much (Betts is -3). Perhaps there are better guys in Hartford, but again, it's a fourth line playing mostly with Hollweg and Ortmeyer, with a smattering of Hossa, Orr, etc. What's the realistic expectation? I don't have an answer, personally. Perhaps I should look at Moore's concentration of points, but to compare, I'd have to do that for everybody, and that's a lotta work.
Again Fletch, no one is calling Moore a failure. The idea of replacing him is not because he's done something wrong per say. But if you have a guy in the system who is several years younger (and thus further from a larger contract, a very real issue in a salary capped league), bigger and maybe a little more consistent with scoring he's likely to get the nod over Moore.

Moore scored some points in one or two burts, but outside of that it's been fairly minimal. Now the expectation isn't huge points. That's not really what would be his undoing so much as young, better options emerging.

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03-14-2006, 06:10 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
Moore's around a 10 goal/20 point guy. Is that enough for a fourth line?
That output is plenty for a 4th liner. However, the problem is if you take away Moore's empty-net goals, he may not get 6 the entire year. I truly believe that Helminen can give you anything Moore can AND contribute sightly more offensively.
If you can get 10 goals from your 4th line player and 15 from your third line players, that should suffice if the other lines are going. We keep going back to this over and over again, but Rucchin is really out of place as a 2nd line center. As a result, the production from your 2nd line is not what it should be and that makes your bottom 2 lines lack of scoring even more glaring.

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Old
03-14-2006, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundqvist102
I can't agree with you on this one. Although Ortmeyer does not score goals or dish out assists, he isn't brought in for that. He is brought in to kill penatlies and provide some energy for this team. I don't think any of us expect him to score goals, which i feel like is the definition of overrated. I admit, he is not a great player, but I just don't think overrated is the right term to describe him, b/c expectations of him werent that high in the first place.

Perhaps offensively challenged?
You don't have to agree.

Overrated might be too harsh a term but I'm at a lost to find a better one.

We love Ortmeyer for his hustle. But beyond that, I just don't see much there. He is no threat offensively. I said before the season started that I didn't feel that Ortmeyer was a lock to make the team.

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Old
03-14-2006, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
I think the overrated part just comes that seem people seem to think he's irreplaceable. He's a good defensive player and he hustles, but really that's about it in terms of skills.

Some people want to name him captain and keep him no matter what. Now I'm not looking to get rid of him, I just think that the Rangers have so many players who are bottom 6 players in the system, are very good at that role and provide some scoring that he probably won't last over the long haul.

That's well said. And what I was trying to say.

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03-14-2006, 07:10 PM
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Helminen does seem to be...

more offensively talented, but the question is will he be able to port his game to the NHL. I've only seen him this season three times, and they weren't great games for him. He didn't play big, and it was hard to see his speed, and I'm quite sure he has speed.

I don't disagree Edge. For me though, I'm a bit higher on Moore than Betts. I too would like more offense from Moore, but playing with Ortmeyer and Hollweg only gets you so far (granted, Moore's not a 15 goal scorer, but getting 10 goals and 20 points out of a fourth liner isn't so bad - perhaps with a couple minutes less of ES ice time, with a better third liner getting the extra). We talk about Helminen, but he's in a different situation with Dawes. We'll see. I'm not hell-bent on Moore at all. I'm just a bit higher on him right now than a couple others currently on the Rangers, let alone Hartford. The best situation would be for these guys to be upgraded from within. Helminen, Callahan, etc. We'll see.

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03-15-2006, 09:35 AM
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ortmeyer has blocked more shots than weekes

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03-15-2006, 11:34 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
more offensively talented, but the question is will he be able to port his game to the NHL. I've only seen him this season three times, and they weren't great games for him. He didn't play big, and it was hard to see his speed, and I'm quite sure he has speed.

I don't disagree Edge. For me though, I'm a bit higher on Moore than Betts. I too would like more offense from Moore, but playing with Ortmeyer and Hollweg only gets you so far (granted, Moore's not a 15 goal scorer, but getting 10 goals and 20 points out of a fourth liner isn't so bad - perhaps with a couple minutes less of ES ice time, with a better third liner getting the extra). We talk about Helminen, but he's in a different situation with Dawes. We'll see. I'm not hell-bent on Moore at all. I'm just a bit higher on him right now than a couple others currently on the Rangers, let alone Hartford. The best situation would be for these guys to be upgraded from within. Helminen, Callahan, etc. We'll see.
I agree and want to emphasis that I'm not necessarily looking to replace those guys, but think that the odds say they probably will be within the next few years.

Maybe it's Helminen, maybe Callahan, who knows, but I do think that at some point in the shorter term guys like Moore, Betts and Ortmeyer,even Ward will probably be phased out by younger, cheaper and better talent.

Now the talent increase might not be huge, it might only be slight but it'd still lead to a move.


Now answer your question about Moore and expectations, I don't think there'd necessarily be a huge step in offensive production. What you'd probably see is a higher faceoff pct., more consistent scoring (if not maybe slightly more), possibly a bigger body and likely a younger one.

The Rangers have a good 5-15 kids who fall along various levels of "potential bottom 6 forwards". If even 3 of them actually develop, some people are going to lose their job. Now obviously that's not happening now, but I've always seen guys like Moore, Ward, Betts, Ortmeyer as more placeholders than anything else. Good at what they do, but probably the first candidates to be moved if the Rangers farm actually starts producing. And with some many kids in the system who will be coming up over the next year or two and with the fact that Moore, Betts, etc. are already older to begin with, they probably aren't going to be players who are here for 5 years or more.

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03-15-2006, 05:09 PM
  #20
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Looked Some of It Up Mylself

according to the statistics on espn.com...

Blair Betts - 1 goal in last 24 games
Dominic Moore - 0 goals in last 16 games, 2 goals in last 47 games,
Ryan Hollweg - 1 goal in last 32 games
Marcel Hossa - 0 goals in 9 games, 1 goal in last 16 games
Jed Ortmyer - 0 goals in last 19 games, 1 goal in last 37 games
Martin Straka - 2 goals in 22 games (was 1 goal in last 20 before the other night)

Again, I know that most of these guys arent supposed to be 20 goals scorers, but they are supposed to chip in a few. These are osme serious droughts, it is difficult when it is more or less assumed your 3rd and 4th lines have no chance at scoring.

This is one of the areas where hopefully, through our prospect depth and talent, we can improve next year.

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03-15-2006, 05:11 PM
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Figure 10 goals from those guys...

during those droughts could lead to a few more wins. All are underperforming in regards to goal production. Jagr can't be expected to do it all.

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03-15-2006, 05:36 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
during those droughts could lead to a few more wins. All are underperforming in regards to goal production. Jagr can't be expected to do it all.
That's the thing right there. Not expecting huge numbers, but some of those streaks are REALLY low even by expectations for a third or fourth liner.

Big chunk of points for a lot of those bottom 6 guys came during the begining of the season.

Moore has two really good offensive games that had padded his stats, everywhere else there's been nothing.

this team needs more from those spots.

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03-17-2006, 09:05 PM
  #23
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Typically younger players slow down towards the end of their first full NHL season, so I expected the olympics to give those guys solid rest time. I was figureing they would come back with more energy that the olympic-worn down guys and give our team a spark.

Well that hasn't been the case.

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Old
03-18-2006, 05:52 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthSather99
I think for Moore, this is his first year in the NHL and is more worried about being defensively responsible. I have seen flashes of offensive ability but more often than not he makes the safe play. I think alot of these guys will be more confident and better next year. Ortmeyer will always be a great defensive forward, shot blocker, penatly killer extreme. One spot on the roster should be reserved for him. I don't think anyone in our organization can do what he does.
Ortmeyer should have been a boxer....HANDS OF STONE

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Old
03-18-2006, 09:20 AM
  #25
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7-8 goals from 6 players in the last 25-35 games, just isn't going to cut it. Hands of stone or not, you would expect these guys to score a few more goals each. In the one goal game loses, over the course of the season, how many would have been wins or ties with "minimal" goal production from one or two of these non-scoring players. Because no one really expected NY to play as well as they have, this lack of goal production fron 3rd./4th line players never factured into team success. Moving forward to the next few years, on a rebuilding team, this area has to be corrected. While we all like the play of the players mentioned here, younger, cheaper, minimal goal producers should be on the horizon, who are able to do the same job as the players currently on the 3/4th lines, and add that extra goal every 7-8th game, not every 15-20, like NY has now.

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