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[CGY] Flames sign Cervenka [1 year, $3.775M cap hit including bonuses, max. ELC]

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Old
05-02-2012, 03:50 PM
  #101
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I sure hope he will work out for the Flames just the way Robert Reichel did back in the days

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05-02-2012, 03:53 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
Shocking that you would think this, given you love to crap on anything Calgary Flames. I bet you didn't even know who this guy was before he signed, but now he's sure to bust.
You seem to be a tad bit sensitive over anyone saying anything remotely critical about your dear old team. I'd be critical of any team signing any unproven and untested player to a $3.7M contract. And I saw Cervenka play during the Olympics. There have been plenty of international players who perform well and don't translate that to North American success. See Maxim Sushinsky.

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05-02-2012, 03:55 PM
  #103
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And the Flames had the nerve to put up the post about Hemsky and his contract on the team twitter??


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05-02-2012, 04:00 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
And the Flames had the nerve to put up the post about Hemsky and his contract on the team twitter??

I know. What are the Flames thinking giving a 26 year old, who outscored Jagr in the KHL, less than 1 million dollars guaranteed?

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05-02-2012, 04:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Cephalusc View Post
How does signing a single FA say the Flames are only trying to rebuild through free agency?

All it says is the the Flames are exploring more options to improve their team than in the past. The Flames have been drafting better (Baertschi, Reinhart, Ferland, Arnold, Gaudreau etc) incorporating young players into the lineup (Brodie, Irving, Horak, Bouwma, Nemisz, Byron, Aliu, Smith etc) and have been acquiring young college/Europeon players (Ramo, Cervenka, Eddy) . I like the direction the team is going. Every single one of those players has a decent chance at seeing playing time in the NHL next season. Although Feaster would never use the term "rebuild", that is exactly what the Flames have been doing over the last season.

HF really needs to open its mind to the other ways rebuilds can be successfully carried out.
For the record, I didn't say anything about "only pursuing the free agent market to rebuild."

I think Feaster's done a fabulous job with the hand he's been dealt - you can go back and read my past posts for proof. Sutter really bent that team over and set them back for the next 3 years or so. Between the NMCs / NTCs, the cap commitments to players, the length of contracts, and the age of the team (all of which came courtesy of Sutter), Feaster has done a good job Magellan'ing the roster and trying to get younger yet stay competitive.

The prospects in Calgary's stable (aside from Baertschi) are mediocre. They aren't going to put the team over the top to get into the playoffs. That's why it's clear that as of right now, the only options that Calgary has to improve for next season is either through free agency or the trade market (or you blow the team up and start gearing towards a 3-5 year drafting rebuild). It's not like Calgary has a top 5 draft pick this year that is expected to come in and dominate from the get-go, unless I'm missing something. The drafting has been better as of late.

In the end, the other teams in the league have separated themselves from Calgary in terms of youthful talent. While Feaster has made the NHL team younger and better built for success than when he stepped into office, it's not as if every other team around the league has suddenly stopped developing / furthering the development of their young players. To add to that, most teams around the league have better youthful talent then Calgary does. So while re-tooling may be the option right now, it will inevitably lead the team to similar results of just-outside-of-the-playoffs-but-too-far-away-from-drafting-a-clear-cut-stud-in-the-draft type of finishes. In a cap world, drafting and development is the essential part in winning a Stanley Cup, while free agency is much more of a risk.

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05-02-2012, 04:06 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by MISC View Post
And the Flames had the nerve to put up the post about Hemsky and his contract on the team twitter??

I honestly hope Cervenka earns 3.775 million next season, because it means he will have scored over 20 goals, 35 assists, 60 points, was among the top Flames in terms of ice time and +/-, was named to the NHL all-star game, and was the MVP of that game.

In other words, Cervenka is not going to earn 3.775 million next year. He will get paid according to how he performs.

Hemsky could play like **** and still earn 4 million (like he did this season).

Now do you see the difference between an ELC and Hemsky's contract?

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05-02-2012, 04:10 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Cephalusc View Post
I honestly hope Cervenka earns 3.775 million next season, because it means he will have scored over 20 goals, 35 assists, 60 points, was among the top Flames in terms of ice time and +/-, was named to the NHL all-star game, and was the MVP of that game.

In other words, Cervenka is not going to earn 3.775 million next year. He will get paid according to how he performs.

Hemsky could play like **** and still earn 4 million (like he did this season).

Now do you see the difference between an ELC and Hemsky's contract?
NM i read your post wrong. you are absolutely correct.

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05-02-2012, 04:11 PM
  #108
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I am sure other Flames fans are wondering this too, can he win a god damned faceoff?

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05-02-2012, 04:13 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Are you trying to compare him to Giroux or something? I'm not sure where you have been for the last year but revenues are increasing and the average player salary is going up. When tim connolly, Ville Leino, and others get more lucrative contracts, one year at 3.775 is hardly far fetched.
i think you misinterpreted his post badly. he was saying Cervenka would need to post those kinds of numbers and achievements to earn all the bonuses in his contract

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05-02-2012, 04:15 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
Signing a highly-touted 26 year old European player to a low-risk deal is not indicative that the team is against rebuilding. In fact I would argue just the opposite.

It all depends on whether you believe there's more ways to rebuild than stockpiling lottery picks.
Correct, however the fact that Feaster came out and said that he wasn't going to tank is indicative of the team going against, what I defined as, "the traditional rebuild."

I understand that there are different ways to go about rebuilding, and free agency provides one of those ways. My comments stem more from believing that "re-tooling" is the worst way to rebuild with the greatest amount of risk involved. You end up overpaying for a risk asset, the contracts are usually too long, and it can eventually damage the team's long-term future (getting the team to finish 1 or 2 spots outside of the playoffs for many years in a row, which means no playoffs and no sure thing types of players). So while signing Cervenka is a good sign for the organization, I hope signing guys through free agency is not their main plan for success.

While I don't agree with purposefully tanking, I do believe the Flames have very nice assets that would speed up their rebuild process if they so wanted. Instead, the management has chosen to try the best with the hand they've been dealt - almost a sense of denial. In a league where the cap is a major factor in the landscape of your organization, letting yourself go into denial will create a Brian Burke / Toronto Maple Leafs type of scenario.

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05-02-2012, 04:18 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
List of guys whose Cap hit is around his potential 3.775 mil cap hit.

Ville Leino
Brooks Laich
Dustin Penner
David Booth
Nik Antropov
Brad Boyes
Jason Blake
Wojtek Wolski
Chris Kunitz
Jarret Stoll


All except Stoll and Kunitz had a higher Cap hit than Cervenka will next season.
I think its interesting some of the names you left out as being under this number this year..................
Landeskog
Duchene
Tavares
Myers
RNH
Eberle
Hall
Skinner
Couturier
etc.....(its a long list) Your comparing him to the wrong type of guys remember this is an ELC

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Old
05-02-2012, 04:18 PM
  #112
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For the record, I didn't say anything about "only pursuing the free agent market to rebuild."

I think Feaster's done a fabulous job with the hand he's been dealt - you can go back and read my past posts for proof. Sutter really bent that team over and set them back for the next 3 years or so. Between the NMCs / NTCs, the cap commitments to players, the length of contracts, and the age of the team (all of which came courtesy of Sutter), Feaster has done a good job Magellan'ing the roster and trying to get younger yet stay competitive.

The prospects in Calgary's stable (aside from Baertschi) are mediocre. They aren't going to put the team over the top to get into the playoffs. That's why it's clear that as of right now, the only options that Calgary has to improve for next season is either through free agency or the trade market (or you blow the team up and start gearing towards a 3-5 year drafting rebuild). It's not like Calgary has a top 5 draft pick this year that is expected to come in and dominate from the get-go, unless I'm missing something. The drafting has been better as of late.

In the end, the other teams in the league have separated themselves from Calgary in terms of youthful talent. While Feaster has made the NHL team younger and better built for success than when he stepped into office, it's not as if every other team around the league has suddenly stopped developing / furthering the development of their young players. To add to that, most teams around the league have better youthful talent then Calgary does. So while re-tooling may be the option right now, it will inevitably lead the team to similar results of just-outside-of-the-playoffs-but-too-far-away-from-drafting-a-clear-cut-stud-in-the-draft type of finishes. In a cap world, drafting and development is the essential part in winning a Stanley Cup, while free agency is much more of a risk.
But it's not as though the Flames have neglected this aspect. The drafting and development has been great the last few years, we just won't see results for it right away because that's the nature of the game.

I think the Flames have some very good potential NHL players in the 18-20 range including Baertschi, Gaudreau, Brossoit, Reinhart, Ramage, Ferland, etc (not to mention whoever we end up drafting this year), that are often overlooked because for the most part they are still years away from the pro game. Where they are lacking is the 21-26 range, in part because of bad drafting by Sutter (Pelech and Chucko busting, consistently picking in the 20's from 04-08), trading the pick that ended up being Gormley (again a flub by Sutter), and rat fink Erixon giving a big FU to the organization. The need to add players in that kind of age range led to picking up Horak, Byron, Ramo, Comeau, Jones, Aliu, and now Cervenka, hoping that maybe a few of of them can contribute in some fashion. None of them may turn into spectacular players, but there is some value in increasing the number of dice you get to roll. The trick is to be able to add to the number of players in this age range and increase your odds of finding a good player without crippling the team or its future. And in that sense I think Feaster has done about as well as could be expected. We'll see over the next year or so what ends up happening with Iginla and Kipper.

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05-02-2012, 04:19 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Jakob Silfverberg View Post
If a player who has never played in the NHL has a 3.775 cap hit, what is an established star like Parise going to receive?
9 to 10 million a year, like he was going to anyway!

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05-02-2012, 04:21 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MattAndersonBTR View Post
Correct, however the fact that Feaster came out and said that he wasn't going to tank is indicative of the team going against, what I defined as, "the traditional rebuild."

I understand that there are different ways to go about rebuilding, and free agency provides one of those ways. My comments stem more from believing that "re-tooling" is the worst way to rebuild with the greatest amount of risk involved. You end up overpaying for a risk asset, the contracts are usually too long, and it can eventually damage the team's long-term future (getting the team to finish 1 or 2 spots outside of the playoffs for many years in a row, which means no playoffs and no sure thing types of players). So while signing Cervenka is a good sign for the organization, I hope signing guys through free agency is not their main plan for success.

While I don't agree with purposefully tanking, I do believe the Flames have very nice assets that would speed up their rebuild process if they so wanted. Instead, the management has chosen to try the best with the hand they've been dealt - almost a sense of denial. In a league where the cap is a major factor in the landscape of your organization, letting yourself go into denial will create a Brian Burke / Toronto Maple Leafs type of scenario.
This mentaility you speak of has nothing to do with Feaster, it's ownership. Every year is a new year though, and players can vastly improve (or regress) from one season to the next. Guess we'll see what we have come October.

All I know is that this is a great signing. Small risk and the chance we could be rewarded with a top 6 centre. I like.

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05-02-2012, 04:21 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by MattAndersonBTR View Post
For the record, I didn't say anything about "only pursuing the free agent market to rebuild."
You can always say you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but you did say it... which was all I had to go on when I wrote my post.

Quote:
However, this signing has made it clear that the Calgary management will not go through the traditional rebuild and try instead to do it through the free agency market
Re: the rest of your post. I wasn't comparing Calgary to other teams. I know the Flames fell behind most other teams in the league in terms of young talent while Sutter was in charge. That is not really related to my point.... in the last year, since Feaster has taken over, the Flames have started to narrow the gap. The team isn't going move from a bottom 5 prospect pool to a top 10 in just one year, which seems like what some people expect.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "traditional rebuild", but the Flames have drafted well, incorporated youth into the line up, and have looked at all options to acquire new/young talent. What isn't traditional about that?

The Flames are not re-tooling, they are rebuilding. Trading Jokinen/Phaneuf for Stajan, Higgins, Hagman etc is re-tooling.

Letting old UFAs go, like Jokinen, Sarich, Stempniak, Moss etc and replacing them with youth from the draft/college/Europe, like Baertschi, Smith, Cervenka, and Brodie, is rebuilding.

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05-02-2012, 04:23 PM
  #116
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I think its interesting some of the names you left out as being under this number this year..................
Landeskog
Duchene
Tavares
Myers
RNH
Eberle
Hall
Skinner
Couturier
etc.....(its a long list) Your comparing him to the wrong type of guys remember this is an ELC
you are right he was comparing him to the wrong kind of guy, but so are you.

Cervenka is a unique case, the guy won the scoring title of a major professional league last season and was an undrafted UFA, all the guys you mentioned were coming straight out of Junior hockey and were only allowed to negotiate with 1 NHL club.

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05-02-2012, 04:25 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Cephalusc View Post
Re: the rest of your post. I wasn't comparing Calgary to other teams. I know the Flames fell behind most other teams in the league in terms of young talent while Sutter was in charge. That is not really related to my point.... in the last year, since Feaster has taken over, the Flames have started to narrow the gap.
The bolded is undeniably false. the Flames were even further behind before Sutter.

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05-02-2012, 04:37 PM
  #118
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This just reminds me too much of Jiri Dopita, and I'm sure most of us remember how the best player not in the NHL performed in the NHL...
Dopita was almost 34. That's too old to be a rookie.

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05-02-2012, 04:38 PM
  #119
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Originally I thought it was just .775 for one year...then I saw the 3, that is a butt load of cash! The guy better be good.

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05-02-2012, 04:40 PM
  #120
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Originally I thought it was just .775 for one year...then I saw the 3, that is a butt load of cash! The guy better be good.
Did you also see the part about it mostly being constructed in bonuses? If he does make that full 3.775 it means very good things for the Flames.

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05-02-2012, 04:45 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Cephalusc View Post
You can always say you didn't mean it the way it sounded, but you did say it... which was all I had to go on when I wrote my post.



Re: the rest of your post. I wasn't comparing Calgary to other teams. I know the Flames fell behind most other teams in the league in terms of young talent while Sutter was in charge. That is not really related to my point.... in the last year, since Feaster has taken over, the Flames have started to narrow the gap. The team isn't going move from a bottom 5 prospect pool to a top 10 in just one year, which seems like what some people expect.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "traditional rebuild", but the Flames have drafted well, incorporated youth into the line up, and have looked at all options to acquire new/young talent. What isn't traditional about that?

The Flames are not re-tooling, they are rebuilding. Trading Jokinen/Phaneuf for Stajan, Higgins, Hagman etc is re-tooling.

Letting old UFAs go, like Jokinen, Sarich, Stempniak, Moss etc and replacing them with youth from the draft/college/Europe, like Baertschi, Smith, Cervenka, and Brodie, is rebuilding.
Today's traditional rebuild is when a team realizes that it isn't going to be making the dance, so it sells off it's aging assets that have 1-2 years left on their contracts (Iginla, Kiprusoff) for significant assets (high picks / high-end prospects). While the off-season has yet to begin, my original post was made with the assumption that this isn't going to be happening until the trade deadline, or maybe not at all.

I also don't expect the Flames to have a top 10 prospect pool overnight, except in the case of the team dealing Iginla and Kiprusoff. If the Flames didn't get significant assets (picks / prospects strictly) for both, then I would be pretty upset if I was a Flames fan.

Granted, I do think that the Flames have drafted better as of late and I have commended Feaster for getting younger players for aging ones.

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Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
But it's not as though the Flames have neglected this aspect. The drafting and development has been great the last few years, we just won't see results for it right away because that's the nature of the game.

I think the Flames have some very good potential NHL players in the 18-20 range including Baertschi, Gaudreau, Brossoit, Reinhart, Ramage, Ferland, etc (not to mention whoever we end up drafting this year), that are often overlooked because for the most part they are still years away from the pro game. Where they are lacking is the 21-26 range, in part because of bad drafting by Sutter (Pelech and Chucko busting, consistently picking in the 20's from 04-08), trading the pick that ended up being Gormley (again a flub by Sutter), and rat fink Erixon giving a big FU to the organization. The need to add players in that kind of age range led to picking up Horak, Byron, Ramo, Comeau, Jones, Aliu, and now Cervenka, hoping that maybe a few of of them can contribute in some fashion. None of them may turn into spectacular players, but there is some value in increasing the number of dice you get to roll. The trick is to be able to add to the number of players in this age range and increase your odds of finding a good player without crippling the team or its future. And in that sense I think Feaster has done about as well as could be expected. We'll see over the next year or so what ends up happening with Iginla and Kipper.
We're on the same page. My original point was focusing on this up-coming year while still taking into account the future of the team. If the Flames were to start the "traditional rebuild," they would be trading Iginla and Kipper this off-season / at the trade deadline in order to speed up the process; my original post was made with the assumption that with the signing of Cervenka, Flames management wasn't going to pursue this avenue and rather they think this signing will be able to get them over the hump. It was also questioning why the Flames wouldn't be able to retain Jokinen - it's not as if the free agent market is a buyers' market and there are significant centers available. Retaining Jokinen for either the #1 or #2 center role on a short-term deal would be good for the organization if they believe they can make the dance.

You have a real sleeper in Gaudreau. I had the chance to watch / listen to BC broadcasts this year - if the kid can add some weight and continue to grow, he could be a good NHL'er some day.

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05-02-2012, 04:46 PM
  #122
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Did you also see the part about it mostly being constructed in bonuses? If he does make that full 3.775 it means very good things for the Flames.
That whole amount counts against the cap though does it not? Unless the flames use the bonus cushion, I'm pretty sure that the whole amount counts.

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05-02-2012, 04:48 PM
  #123
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you are right he was comparing him to the wrong kind of guy, but so are you.

Cervenka is a unique case, the guy won the scoring title of a major professional league last season and was an undrafted UFA, all the guys you mentioned were coming straight out of Junior hockey and were only allowed to negotiate with 1 NHL club.
I understand your point and I guess it makes mine rather mute (I was trying to be a little exaggerated) but yours also assumes that other teams had interest..... This guy sort of comes out of Left Field it wouldn't have been far-fetched last week to assume the rest of his career would be in the khl

I think its too much money but probably a great pickup since the need was definitely there

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05-02-2012, 04:49 PM
  #124
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That whole amount counts against the cap though does it not? Unless the flames use the bonus cushion, I'm pretty sure that the whole amount counts.
I remember this as well... Im an avs fan and im fairly confident Landeskog was listed at 3.6 even before his (calder) year

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05-02-2012, 04:59 PM
  #125
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Just as an FYI, Cervenka already has experience on smaller ice, as his home rink when he played for Slavia is smaller than international dimensions.

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