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Old
05-02-2012, 11:24 AM
  #101
Sokil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorz View Post
Thank god FIFA has this power and keeps some order in football. That would be the worst thing if FIFA, UEFA etc. lost control and all football turned into the same mess as hockey - leagues doing whatever they want with the sport not caring about anything but money. I'm not saying it's good they don't allow united baltic or balkan league though.
you think european football clubs don't care about money?


Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
yep, can similar model work for hockey? I think yes, but domestic leagues are not interested or not money. Look at history of Champions Hockey League - failure.
It could in theory, but European hockey isn't strong enough; there aren't enough elite teams spread across Europe to make such a tournament interesting.

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05-02-2012, 11:56 AM
  #102
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It could in theory, but European hockey isn't strong enough; there aren't enough elite teams spread across Europe to make such a tournament interesting.
thats the point. Big differences among budgets of TOP european clubs in respective countries. It does not work like this among TOP football clubs of Premiere League, La Liga. On the other hand, you must fullfill minimal budget to join KHL.

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05-02-2012, 12:59 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Joey Banana View Post
But to get back to hockey. The only thing i think why the KHL could work, is that guys like Ehrhoff or Streit could play for Berlin or Bern and would increase the interest among hockey fans for these teams because they are stars in their countries.
Neither Eisbaren nor Bern have Erhoff/Streit on their rosters and they still have around 14.000 (EBB) and 16.000 (SCB) fans per game.

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05-02-2012, 01:07 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
you think european football clubs don't care about money?
Of course they do, but they are limited by FIFA in their actions. FIFA cares about money too (just like IIHF), but it cares about the sport also.

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05-02-2012, 02:28 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by croAVSfan View Post
Neither Eisbaren nor Bern have Erhoff/Streit on their rosters and they still have around 14.000 (EBB) and 16.000 (SCB) fans per game.
Its nice to see them have good attendance in their club, but what are the TV contracts like in the NLA and DEL? minimal.

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05-02-2012, 02:28 PM
  #106
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Its not even just about KHL. Sure there can be another European league run by Scandinavians. Still, more competition, improvement and talent retention.

Vorky makes a really good point. European talent gets drained for close to nothing.

The NHL has the perfect system working for just them:

They create a league that is the best and they market it as such. Aside from that they create this NHL hegemony. NHL is the top of the pyramid and nothing else matters. Hockey players that haven't been to the NHL almost cant be seen as stars.

The markets, TV contracts, and every other source of financing is monopolized by the NHL. This is not only bad for Europe even.

Canadians only have 7 teams, lol and account for most players in the NHL. Any north American player that cant make the NHL is seen as a minor who didnt make it. So for leagues like AHL and ECHL, the NHL still controls them and puts them FAR below competitiveness. AHL team salaries are 10 millidon dollars. And you ride the bus... They destroyed their early competition WHA.

Therefore there is not even an alternative for North Americans in their own countries. Everything revolves around the NHL.

It is evident that the NHL is a selfish entity because it has no interest in cooperation with anyone else, it wants to monopolize. Not member of IIHF, and the "cooperation" with some Scandinavian leagues is just pity loans for players that can be pulled anytime for the NHL.

That being said it creates a perfect atmosphere to be the ultimate best. where everyone wants to go. As you know the rich keep getting richer. It pulls players from any league, any time.

Also creates a perception that juniors must be crazy and dedicated about it in order to get drafted. Kids obviously want to go to the best league, so they do whatever it takes.

Unlike European soccer, the NHL has zero academies. It just takes players that are ready to be good, so effectively just drains the good players.

To do whatever it takes the best talent, especialy from Czech and Slovakia decide to go to NA to suck up to scouts to possibly make the NHL. Since there is no market for hockey in NA aside from the NHL, junior leagues pay nothing and then age out where the NHL gets them free. Or it will wait until the junior player's contract expires at home, having no reasonable alternative they do just that.

Then there is a 3yr entry level contract where they have 3 years of very low pay and uncertainty. If the NHL doesnt like them, they send them home, washed up, no earnings and decreased hockey ability(arguably)

Nothing positive from this system can come out for European leagues. Nothing. Their symbolic transfer fee is laughable. Karlsson for nothing, Tarasenko for nothing.


Any European league that could have a positive prospect for their clubs is better. For example KHL.

It offers competitive prices and makes it enticing for juniors to stay.
Why would Kuznetsov sign an entry level and play less minutes when he can be making more now.

I know, the generic answer to most readers would be because its the NHL

And thats exactly what the NHL has made everyone believe. As described above.

If you were able to release yourself from that mindset and think, ask yourself. How much do you give up for the NHL? How much money, comfort, etc.?

if your domestic league is like the way it is in Europe today, Alot.

That is what a league like the KHL will effectively change. A strong European league will have players tied to their team and get paid competitive wages and not just leave to, Barrie, Kamloops, Moncton, or other random places to play junior for nothing. Clubs would be interested in developing them and keeping them. Of course they will be available but for a price. Not just the way it is now. "we pick you at the draft, and you show up free"

With Euro clubs getting fair compensation and stronger, they will have more incentive to do better and develop the sport.

It may be worse for the NHL but not for hockey in Europe. Mind you it wont even be worse for the NHL. They will just have to step it up.

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Old
05-02-2012, 03:02 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
This is why the UEFA Champions League and Europa League, etc. exist
Yeah but whther or not they exist or not, they don't, say, raise the level of clubs like Rangers or Celtic (or any Polish club) or even current Ajax or Porto to a level where (like in NHL) these clubs on any given day could outplay Barcelona or Real. They pretty much only serve for top 5 nations big guns to test themselves against other big guns.. of course a club like Celtic or Ajax can earn money playing in CL but they still don't have access to such a market or sponsors as big guns of top 5 leagues and therefore they stay at the same subpar level.

And it football it kinda works as Europe is the top place where to play football. Therefore sponsors rush to the competion as it's really best vs best. If such a league would be created in Europe, NHL would still remain the top competion and sponsors wouldn't be as eager to fund a second rate tournament between small budget European teams from towns of 50 000 people..... I just don't see what would European hockey gainfrom such a tournament. It wouldn't equal the strength of, say, Medvescak and Djurgardens as money earned in the tournament would still be low, it wouldn't help clubs fight vs NHL monopoly... It would just help them to compare their strength vs other countries' clubs... like in soccer, CL doesn't make teams in Europe more equal, one might even say the rich get richer and poor just earn some money.... Compare how much Real and Barcelona earned in CL compaign with some poor club that was out already in group stage...

Actually I don't kinda like European model, even if you look at football Barcelona and Real will always be contenders in Spain (pretty much 1 or 2 only pick the order), Manchester United, Chelsea, Arsenal (now also City) in England, Germany will always be about Bayern... and even in CL you can probably only name 5-6 clubs that can realistically win the title... Sure, clubs have youth academies but you cannot raise a player until the level of Messi in Poland, all you can do is have such a player until he's 17 and then sell earning 4-5 million pounds... money that the top team that has bought the player will get as a pocket money from Abramovich or earn in CL (while the Polish club is left in the Polish league without the player it raised)... It's a lot more capitalist than NHL but it also works only for the rich clubs....

Now, if the hockey Europe was united as political Europe (European Union) is, then even if we had smaller budgets than NHL, we could dictate our rules to the players who were taught in our academies. At least we could make a rule that a hockey player who moved to the NHL without proper compensation would, in that case, not be able to play professionally in Europe anymore... so if he can make it in the NHL but if he's stuck in AHL he's stuck in AHL ( or would have to finish his contract like Radulov's case with NASHVILLE). That would make at least some think.


Last edited by Latgale_fan: 05-02-2012 at 03:42 PM.
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05-02-2012, 03:15 PM
  #108
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I still get the feeling that the KHL is trying to expand as quickly as possible, trying to fly when they can barely walk. Imo they should set the bar very high for possible new teams.

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05-02-2012, 03:40 PM
  #109
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yunost,

It's all nice and great but it's Russia... Had the project been started by Swedes or Germans I'd also think like that. If DEL, Elitserien, SM Liiga, Czech League, NLA, Slovaks came together and said- we already have a good product, let's take it to the next level... and created a 14-15 team league in Europe with salary cap like in KHL, attrcted new sponsors, raised ticket prices and built 15 000 + arenas with an intent to fill them to full capacity regularly... I could see the effect in 5-6 years already.

Unfortunately KHL was started by Russians. That means that despite the big money and big plans, technology wise (even if we talk about HD tv coverage and good lighting in arenas) and attendance wise the league's still not the nr.1 in Europe. Level of play is nr.1 in Europe but we all hear stories about bad toilets, problems with contracts, players dying on ice and in air etc. Add to that the fact that teams with less that 5000 arenas are admitted to the league... add to that strange salary cup that exists only on paper.

KHL is a nice idea but can it work? If players like that African American who was supposed to play for Riga this season and whose surname escapes me run away from airport just cause it has dawned upon him that he'll spend a season playing in Russia... Sure Russia's not as bad as it is portrayed to be but a player would be more eager to play in Helsinki, Stockholm and Prague, Berlin, Vienna or whatever than fly around Russia every year (especially a Western person, I would probably want to travel in Russia more as I've seen Europe already)

I laugh at Canadians who say things like ''In KHL most of the teams suffer losses and the league will fold soon!!!" as he/she doesn't even know what they're talking about. In KHL ALL TEAMS suffer losses and the league cannot fold because... well because it isn't like NHL even if it tries to be. I doubt NHL would ever fold if all the clubs of the league would receive investments either directly from municipality or state budgets/companies or after an ''encouragement'' from Mr. Barack Obama or PM Harper... I'm not saying this model of financing teams is bad but it doesn't encourage developement in any of areas, from marketing to team management etc. Progress is visible but slow and, if it goes at the pace it is at the moment, Russian oil will end sooner than KHL will be able to effectively stand against NHL.....

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05-02-2012, 03:52 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMF78 View Post
I still get the feeling that the KHL is trying to expand as quickly as possible, trying to fly when they can barely walk. Imo they should set the bar very high for possible new teams.
This... KHL expansion is so ridiculous with 10s of potential team names thrown around every year that many people just laugh at it at the moment. Yeah, this year could be a breakhrough year as Lokomotiv returns and Slovan and Lev will play in big arenas (hopefully with nice attendance) and the long awaited Ukranian club joins but still... if Minsk was able to raise the attendance from 2000 to 15 000, for example, if Saint Petersburg was able to raise it from half empty arena to almost full then WTF is with Moscow and some other markets? WTF they don't play in Hodinka with full arena. Give work to Petersburg marketing guys and Dynamo will regularaly get 10 000 next year in Moscow... Moscow is a city of millions, to think that hockey regularly gets only 3000-4000 spectators is proposterous.

That's what I was talking about. Russian clubs have money but what they often don't have is brain... or eagerness to take their clubs to that next level in other ways than just buying ex-NHL stars.

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05-02-2012, 03:59 PM
  #111
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Progress is visible but slow
true, but be realistic. Is it possible to make progress faster? Tell me how many europeans clubs (cities) is building 15+ arenas? I can name Donetsk, N.Novgorod, Moscow (3) in KHL. It is not possible to build arena within a year. HD tv coverage - agree, is it possible to make it faster? KHL has own tv which is great idea. Europe does not have so great sport tvs like NA.

I say this, lets wait a few years and german clubs will join + helvetics. Progress will be made faster, maybe. Swedish and finnish clubs will not join in near future.

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05-02-2012, 04:04 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
This... KHL expansion is so ridiculous with 10s of potential team names thrown around every year that many people just laugh at it at the moment. Yeah, this year could be a breakhrough year as Lokomotiv returns and Slovan and Lev will play in big arenas (hopefully with nice attendance) and the long awaited Ukranian club joins but still... if Minsk was able to raise the attendance from 2000 to 15 000, for example, if Saint Petersburg was able to raise it from half empty arena to almost full then WTF is with Moscow and some other markets? WTF they don't play in Hodinka with full arena. Give work to Petersburg marketing guys and Dynamo will regularaly get 10 000 next year in Moscow... Moscow is a city of millions, to think that hockey regularly gets only 3000-4000 spectators is proposterous.

That's what I was talking about. Russian clubs have money but what they often don't have is brain... or eagerness to take their clubs to that next level in other ways than just buying ex-NHL stars.
you contradict yourself.

I see progress in marketing among some clubs, not all of course. Still, it is MUCH better than in 2008. You can see people are increasing their skills in marketing. I read an article about Dinamo Minsk, guys were in NHL clubs to learn something.

Moscow- big problem but when new arenas is built (CSKA, Dinamo), fans will come. CSKA is playing in Khodinka next season (90%)

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05-03-2012, 04:45 AM
  #113
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Champions League style Competition has been tried twice and it has failed twice. European Hockey League (2000), Champions Hockey League (2008). I don't believe in it anymore. If the market was there, it would already have worked out.

Football is not a good comparison because there is so much more money in it. The market is boundless: Germany (82 Mio people), France (65 Mio), United Kingdom (62 Mio), Italy (61 Mio), Spain (47 Mio), etc, plus foreign markets like Eastern Asia. Compare European Hockey: Czech Repblic (10 Mio people), Sweden (9 Mio), Switzerland (8 Mio), Finland (5 Mio), etc.

There are only two markets that European Hockey can set its hope on: Russia and Germany. Big countries, big money. Russia already has the KHL. Germany is still a bit asleep, but has so much potential: lots of people, lots of money, population mad for sports and not uninterested in hockey. If the KHL wants to expand, Germany should be their No 1 target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yunost View Post
Unlike European soccer, the NHL has zero academies.
Because of the Entry Draft System.

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05-03-2012, 04:56 AM
  #114
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Football is not a good comparison because there is so much more money in it. The market is boundless: Germany (82 Mio people), France (65 Mio), United Kingdom (62 Mio), Italy (61 Mio), Spain (47 Mio), etc, plus foreign markets like Eastern Asia. Compare European Hockey: Czech Repblic (10 Mio people), Sweden (9 Mio), Switzerland (8 Mio), Finland (5 Mio), etc.

There are only two markets that European Hockey can set its hope on: Russia and Germany. Big countries, big money. Russia already has the KHL. Germany is still a bit asleep, but has so much potential: lots of people, lots of money, population mad for sports and not uninterested in hockey. If the KHL wants to expand, Germany should be their No 1 target.
I agree with you. If we take into accout developing programme Sweden and Suomi are best in Europe. So European League (KHL or so) needs their talent, clubs would be great. On the other hand, Germany and Russia have market, money. It was reported that 3 german clubs are interesting in joining KHL. I dont know how serious it is. We will see within 2-3 years.

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05-03-2012, 05:12 AM
  #115
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The problem with the KHL is two things..

1-The draft is worthless.

2-Its too geographically big. Expansion into Asia would kill a team who had to fly from the Czech Republic or Latvia.

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05-03-2012, 05:31 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
The problem with the KHL is two things..

1-The draft is worthless.
dont agree with you. It is working for russian clubs/players. Above 70% drafted guys sign contract. It is not working for foreigners, but it is not a point of draft (in NHL either)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
2-Its too geographically big. Expansion into Asia would kill a team who had to fly from the Czech Republic or Latvia.
ok, but you can make schedulle when club from czech rep will not play against sibirian one. Do you want example? Look at CHL model

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05-03-2012, 09:44 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
The problem with the KHL is two things..

1-The draft is worthless.

2-Its too geographically big. Expansion into Asia would kill a team who had to fly from the Czech Republic or Latvia.
1) KHL draft is not meant too be similiar to NHL Draft

2) Only if they met in finals. Schedule is made that teams gradually move towards East or West (because there teams in middle as well extremes just like in NHL.

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05-03-2012, 09:47 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
you contradict yourself.
Didn't you see the word "often" Latgale fan used in that sentence? Often =/ always. Like he said St.Petersburg has great marketing, so does Atlant, Yaroslavl and that's about it. There are full arenas elsewhere too but like Khabarovsk it's probably isn't because of sideshow so to say as people simply love hockey over there.

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05-03-2012, 10:12 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas View Post
The problem with the KHL is two things..

1-The draft is worthless.

2-Its too geographically big. Expansion into Asia would kill a team who had to fly from the Czech Republic or Latvia.
They need to do it like MLB and have 2 separate leagues within a league for travel reasons

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05-03-2012, 11:12 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
They need to do it like MLB and have 2 separate leagues within a league for travel reasons
Good point, this is why expansion though, correct? Maybe eventually have more than 2 conferences even where cross conference teams play each other once a year. Just think, with more teams and same sized schedule teams may only have room to play 1 /2 games cross conference. This is beneficial for rivalries unlike smaller leagues like SEL and DEL where teams play each other a million x a season. Travel= not so bad after all.

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05-10-2012, 09:38 PM
  #121
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being from Canada, and I can honestly say that I have never watched a KHL game, I both want the KHL to suceed but I have an obvious bias towards the NHL and therefore, want it to be the best league in the world. I want the KHL to suceed because I like the idea that hockey could spread to other countries and produce more competitive national teams. So when I watch the Olympic its just not Canada,Russia, Sweden, Finland,Czech's and the US that have a shot at the gold, I obviously want Canada to win, but I just want to see hockey grow, like I think it would be cool to see other countries play at a more competitive level. With that said I never really considered the national leagues of countries, because frankly, North America really doesn't have national leagues, with the exception with the NFL and CFL. I think it is interesting that many that have posted that actaully the KHL would ruin nation leagues and thus dilute talent further. Even though Canada and the US are two different places one thing we share is top-end sports leagues, so I guess I find it hard to see the arguement for the need to protect a domestic league.
I guess I want the NHL to be the best league, just because it has had such a history, players who play hockey in Canada want to win the Stanley Cup, they don't want to play in Europe ideally. But likewise I think Canadian soccer players want to play in Europe, because they see it as the best league's. Having one league that is elite IMO is good because thats the ulitimate goal for players, to play in the best league in the world, to truely know your among elite hockey players, that is my reasoning to see the NHL as the best league as poor as it may be,
Also I think the KHL needs be more like a buiness, and more self sustaining, thats just IMO
And to end this rant, the NHL does have acdemics, there are lots of players that come out of the NCAA, each year, the OHL has to compete and vice versa to try and convince players what the best route is, and the NCAA sale is "well if you dont make a pro team, at least you have your education" ie you have a backup plan,

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05-16-2012, 01:58 PM
  #122
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new logo of HC Lev

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05-16-2012, 03:04 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by perklunt View Post
new logo of HC Lev
HC LEV informs at VK account that this logo is not final one.
Quote:
новая эмблема клуба. окочательный вариант будет известен к сезону.

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05-16-2012, 03:09 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
HC LEV informs at VK account that this logo is not final one.
but this is a good one anyway! I like it )

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09-14-2012, 03:25 AM
  #125
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Zagreb will play 2 games at a Roman amphitheatre


Facts and Figures
2: Number of Erste Bank Eishockey Liga games as part of “ARENA ICE FEVER Pula MMIXX”
57x26: Rink Dimensions in meters. The IIHF requirements are 56 x 26.
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190 to 625: Ticket prices in Kuna. That’s 25 to 82.50 €.

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