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The FAN 1200 - Pierre McGuire - 3rd overall vs J. Staal??

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Old
05-03-2012, 12:57 PM
  #76
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and to think we could have ended up with this dough head as our GM.. scary

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05-03-2012, 01:02 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
lol, a little much but I should've added I'd expect an extension.



Ha, good one. Even so, is having Staal and Eller for the future such a bad thing?
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Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
Eller's got a LONG way to go. Staal's already there.
Really? So why not Eller + 2nd (or mid-range prospect) for Staal with no extension?

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05-03-2012, 01:04 PM
  #78
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Really? So why not Eller + 2nd (or mid-range prospect) for Staal with no extension?
Because if Pittsburgh trades Staal the 3rd may return them a future top 2 man or top 3 forward. Eller does nothing for them. They might as well keep Staal.

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05-03-2012, 01:07 PM
  #79
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Yes, and Staal is being paid like someone who is already there, and will cost us the price of someone who is 'already there' whereas Eller will grow into his role over time and be cheap until he does. This team is not in 'win now' mode.
You assume Eller will be as good as Staal. I don't see it.

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05-03-2012, 01:09 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Because if Pittsburgh trades Staal the 3rd may return them a future top 2 man or top 3 forward. Eller does nothing for them. They might as well keep Staal.
I disagree, Eller would be much cheaper and an able 3rd line center with enough potential to replace Staal in the long run. That's already 1 gain more than nothing (money).

I have no problems with the bolded statement eh

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05-03-2012, 01:12 PM
  #81
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I disagree, Eller would be much cheaper and an able 3rd line center with enough potential to replace Staal in the long run. That's already 1 gain more than nothing (money).

I have no problems with the bolded statement eh
If Eller has potential to reach staal, why do we assume staal has no potential to get better? Eller won't reach Staal. They'd rather keep Staal or draft someone like Murray or something.

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05-03-2012, 01:21 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Yes, and Staal is being paid like someone who is already there, and will cost us the price of someone who is 'already there' whereas Eller will grow into his role over time and be cheap until he does. This team is not in 'win now' mode.
Eller may or may not grow into that role. You don't know that he will any more than i do.

Also the proposal we are discussing is getting Staal for the 3rd overall, not an "already there" asset.

And why shouldn't we be in a win now mode? If recently playoffs have proven anything its that alot can change in a hurry. There is tremendous parity in the league right now. I see no reason why we couldn't make a few solid moves this summer and become a playoff threat as early as next season.

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05-03-2012, 01:21 PM
  #83
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look if you get stall you trade away pleky or DD

either way it seems both DD and pleky wont top 70 points ever again and neither would stall but stall brings in size, grit and youth.

if you get him signed, he's an automatic upgrade over dd and plek.
Then you move one of the 2

We wont be worse with stall instead of DD or Plek. We wont be greatly better either, but we would be better and younger.
Yeah - no.

Why not just move DD or Staal to the wing - since they've both done it.

The UFA pool this year is putrid for Top-6 wingers and that's where we are lacking talent.

As far as actually making the trade - I'd probably do it if there was an extension, but I don't think their can be before the draft. His injuries the last two years worries me though, so I'm not 100% sure.

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05-03-2012, 01:24 PM
  #84
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Pacioretty - Staal - Cole would be wicked

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05-03-2012, 01:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
If Eller has potential to reach staal, why do we assume staal has no potential to get better? Eller won't reach Staal. They'd rather keep Staal or draft someone like Murray or something.
Agreed. Eller is NEVER going to be as good as J. Staal. Can't believe some are actually comparing the two.

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05-03-2012, 01:25 PM
  #86
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I'd look at moving our 1st round pick next year instead. Our 1st this year can get us a top end offensive forward (which we need). Staal would be great fit with Pacioretty and DD, imo.

If Pittsburgh decides to keep him until the end of next season maybe we end up swapping 1st round picks with the Pens. There's going to be a bidding war for him, I think he'll fetch more than Kovy did.
after next year he'll be worth very little as he would be a UFA July 1st 2013.

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05-03-2012, 01:26 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
If Eller has potential to reach staal, why do we assume staal has no potential to get better? Eller won't reach Staal. They'd rather keep Staal or draft someone like Murray or something.
Age + Amount of years before free Agency. I consider a higher salary as not getting better, unless the production increases drastically which is not something that usually happens when new players are onboarded with the Habs (there are exceptions of course).

All the arguments about the Pens prefering the 3rd pick, I would use against the initial proposal, because I would agree with them. The 3rd pick + Staal is more interesting for us too. If they don't want 1 of our regulars for 1 of theirs too bad.

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05-03-2012, 01:26 PM
  #88
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Yeah - no.

Why not just move DD or Staal to the wing - since they've both done it.

The UFA pool this year is putrid for Top-6 wingers and that's where we are lacking talent.

As far as actually making the trade - I'd probably do it if there was an extension, but I don't think their can be before the draft. His injuries the last two years worries me though, so I'm not 100% sure.
That's bad use of assets ! DD is a natural passer and Staal is a physically dominant center with good face off skills.

If EVER Staal is acquired, it's gonna mean Plekanec is on his way out to get a winger, a good one ! OR a good 1st pick later in the draft.

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05-03-2012, 01:27 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Because if Pittsburgh trades Staal the 3rd may return them a future top 2 man or top 3 forward. Eller does nothing for them. They might as well keep Staal.
If they keep Staal they can potentially lose him for nothing.

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05-03-2012, 01:30 PM
  #90
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Age + Amount of years before free Agency. I consider a higher salary as not getting better, unless the production increases drastically which is not something that usually happens when new players are onboarded with the Habs (there are exceptions of course).
I'm really not following this.

Staal is about 8 months older than Eller. He's closer to Free Agency only because he was better at 18 than Eller is at 23. Staal absolutely has room to grow, his production has increased the last two seasons despite the injuries. This year he really started to show that 70+ point potential.

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05-03-2012, 01:33 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
Eller may or may not grow into that role. You don't know that he will any more than i do.

Also the proposal we are discussing is getting Staal for the 3rd overall, not an "already there" asset.

And why shouldn't we be in a win now mode? If recently playoffs have proven anything its that alot can change in a hurry. There is tremendous parity in the league right now. I see no reason why we couldn't make a few solid moves this summer and become a playoff threat as early as next season.
I think a lot of people here are confusing Jordan Staal's role with his skill level. He's the best 3rd line C in the league. He'd be a good 2nd liner if we didn't already have 2-3 2nd line centers already. 2 of which fall into the same 2-way center mold as J. Staal. He's not something we're missing. As Bergevin said, we need a mix.

This team lacks an offensive leader. We've never had a better chance than this year's draft to get one. We 'could' add a Jordan Staal and we 'could' have a fluke turnaround a la ottawa senators, but parity is a double edged sword that can just as easily cut the other way. We need quite a few good moves to revamp our D-Squad before we start putting fear into any playoff contenders. And I say that as one of the few who still contends that the habs of 2011-2012 weren't nearly as bad as their record implies.

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05-03-2012, 01:34 PM
  #92
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I'm really not following this.

Staal is about 8 months older than Eller. He's closer to Free Agency only because he was better at 18 than Eller is at 23. Staal absolutely has room to grow, his production has increased the last two seasons despite the injuries. This year he really started to show that 70+ point potential.
You need to put the growth into context. Pittsburg != Montreal. (or any other team for that matter).

I don't see how he would grow past what he already achieved in Montreal.

Edit: I'm not even sure if Eller has any room to grow in Montreal either TBH.

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05-03-2012, 01:40 PM
  #93
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Agreed. Eller is NEVER going to be as good as J. Staal. Can't believe some are actually comparing the two.
...and you know this because? My crystal ball is broken.

I don't see it as a big stretch for Eller to develop into something similar to Staal. He put up 16 goals and 28 points his 2nd year playing mostly with 4th liners(mostly due to injuries) and virually no PP time.

He isn't as advanced as Staal at the same age, but by 25-26 he could be as good or very close.

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05-03-2012, 01:43 PM
  #94
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I think a lot of people here are confusing Jordan Staal's role with his skill level. He's the best 3rd line C in the league. He'd be a good 2nd liner if we didn't already have 2-3 2nd line centers already. 2 of which fall into the same 2-way center mold as J. Staal. He's not something we're missing. As Bergevin said, we need a mix.

This team lacks an offensive leader. We've never had a better chance than this year's draft to get one. We 'could' add a Jordan Staal and we 'could' have a fluke turnaround a la ottawa senators, but parity is a double edged sword that can just as easily cut the other way. We need quite a few good moves to revamp our D-Squad before we start putting fear into any playoff contenders. And I say that as one of the few who still contends that the habs of 2011-2012 weren't nearly as bad as their record implies.
Personally i view Staal as the best 3rd line C in the game and already as an excellent (not just good) 2nd line C. I believe he has 1st line potential and could be a 1st liner as soon as next season. I'm very high on him.

There are alot of questions surrounding the guys we could draft at #3. Interesting prospects for sure but no sureshots. If we could trade that pick for a 23/24 year old 6'4" center who is strong at both ends of the ice and already a proven 25 goal scorer i would be ALL over it. Again assuming we were able to discuss an extension.

I share your opinion on our 2011-12 squad. This is a team that needs help, but not without hope. Bring in a guy like Staal for nothing off the current roster, trade Plekanec for a 2nd line winger, bury Gomez, hope for a healthy Markov, hope that they key young guys continue on the right path, etc and i see us being every bit as good as some of the teams that are still playing hockey.

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05-03-2012, 01:44 PM
  #95
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...and you know this because? My crystal ball is broken.
Obviously i can't say for certain. But i'm as confident in that opinion as i am in any that Eller will never be as good as Jordan Staal.

I'm not knocking Eller...i like him, but i just think those two are in different leagues.

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05-03-2012, 01:50 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Patty Roy View Post
Personally i view Staal as the best 3rd line C in the game and already as an excellent (not just good) 2nd line C. I believe he has 1st line potential and could be a 1st liner as soon as next season. I'm very high on him.

There are alot of questions surrounding the guys we could draft at #3. Interesting prospects for sure but no sureshots. If we could trade that pick for a 23/24 year old 6'4" center who is strong at both ends of the ice and already a proven 25 goal scorer i would be ALL over it. Again assuming we were able to discuss an extension.

I share your opinion on our 2011-12 squad. This is a team that needs help, but not without hope. Bring in a guy like Staal for nothing off the current roster, trade Plekanec for a 2nd line winger, bury Gomez, hope for a healthy Markov, hope that they key young guys continue on the right path, etc and i see us being every bit as good as some of the teams that are still playing hockey.
I like Staal a lot, but I just don't see the offensive creativity in his game I'd like to see from someone I'd consider a potential first line center. I do, however, have a ton of respect for the style of game he plays.

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05-03-2012, 01:51 PM
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Please no !!!!!
agreed ...no fken way

Jordan is an injury prone player

secondly and more important ....he is coddled by the 2 best centers in the world

no pressure to produce , he is great defender but seriously folks

the pressure will be on him to carry us and he isnt that player

solid complimentary player , not a front liner

draft Forsberg and move on

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05-03-2012, 01:53 PM
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...and you know this because? My crystal ball is broken.

I don't see it as a big stretch for Eller to develop into something similar to Staal. He put up 16 goals and 28 points his 2nd year playing mostly with 4th liners(mostly due to injuries) and virually no PP time.

He isn't as advanced as Staal at the same age, but by 25-26 he could be as good or very close.
bang on ....Eller can be a solid 50 point player

16 goals playing with S H I T all year , and no powerplay time

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05-03-2012, 01:53 PM
  #99
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I'm really not following this.

Staal is about 8 months older than Eller. He's closer to Free Agency only because he was better at 18 than Eller is at 23. Staal absolutely has room to grow, his production has increased the last two seasons despite the injuries. This year he really started to show that 70+ point potential.
I don't think it's as much growth as being used as a #2 center this year with Crosby missing 60 games and Malkin missing 7. He played 20 minutes a night and got to play on a high skilled PP. In 10-11 Crosby missed 41 games and malkin 39 so he again played 21 minutes a night. He hasn't been used as a #3 since 09-10.

Stick him on Nashville next year as a #2 or #1 and his PPGM may actually drop

Eller on the other hand barely got on the PP and only got an average of a bit more than 15 minutes a game in part because Gomez was around getting 14 minutes.

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05-03-2012, 02:03 PM
  #100
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I like Staal a lot, but I just don't see the offensive creativity in his game I'd like to see from someone I'd consider a potential first line center. I do, however, have a ton of respect for the style of game he plays.
I can see where you're coming from. He doesn't have the flair and perhaps the creativity isn't there but the guy keeps the game simple and can score 30 goals. The way I see it you slot him and pacioretty long term with a winger with some playmaking skill and you got a legit 1B line. Add DD/Cole and Eller, Plekanec and others including bourque, leblanc and so on and we have a pretty balanced two-way attack.

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