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Offseason Discussion Part III (Contract/FA chart in post #1)

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Old
05-03-2012, 04:00 PM
  #51
mpp9
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Neal/Crosby/Geno
Kunitz/Staal/Stewart
Cooke/Jeffrey/Duper
Tangradi/Vitale/Adams

Orpik/Letang
Nisky/Michalek
Despres/Engelland

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05-03-2012, 06:14 PM
  #52
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Has Colin Wilson been mentioned yet? He's apparently fallen out of favor in Nashville and has been a healthy scratch, but I think he can be a really good player. Thoughts?

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05-03-2012, 06:16 PM
  #53
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Has Colin Wilson been mentioned yet? He's apparently fallen out of favor in Nashville and has been a healthy scratch, but I think he can be a really good player. Thoughts?
Being a healthy scratch doesn't mean a player has fallen out of favor with the team. It just means that player isn't playing well enough to take another guys spot.

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05-03-2012, 06:29 PM
  #54
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Being a healthy scratch doesn't mean a player has fallen out of favor with the team. It just means that player isn't playing well enough to take another guys spot.
Okay maybe I used a poor choice of words. I read he has been in Trotz's dog house though. So I'm just throwing that out there.

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05-03-2012, 07:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I was asking this a week or so ago what people though about it. It didn't' get much response (or I must've missed it otherwise). Curious to know why you wouldn't trade him. Is it that you think no matter how good the team he can't win big games or that he's a locker room problem or the duration of his deal (primarily)?
Luongo is better than MAF, there's no two ways about it. His playoff "meltdowns" are way overblown but he is torched for it because of his attitude (the Tim Thomas tire pumping stuff) and because he plays in a rabid market that was even booing him at the end of the regular season despite his solid play as usual. Luongo is not playoff beast but someone can't say MAF is clearly better than him in the playoffs since his career playoff numbers are much worse (GAA is .15 worse, save% is more than .10 pts worse), to the point you can't make an argument for MAF being a better playoff goalie other than the Cup argument and the big reason the Pens won the Cup that year is because Sid and Geno were one of two sets of teammates to score over 30 pts each in a playoff in the last 20 years (Messier and Leetch being the other in 1994). Yeah, he played great in games 6-7 against Detroit but that Cup run was as much fuled by two generational talents playing great than anything else. The "he has a Cup" argument loses water when it's the only real merit MAF has for his playoff play. For people who defend MAF's playoff play, do you also feel that Chris Osgood was an elite goalie? Much of the same "He has a Cup" arguments can be used to say Osgood is a borderline Hall of Famer, which is ridiculous.

Luongo's contract is bad (really any contract lasting that long is likely to not end well) but the actually caphit is not bad and the actually money to be paid for him is extremely negligible for the last couple years, in effect making it likely he will retire instead of playing the last 3 years since he'll make about 3.5 mil combined those years. Shero would never make this type of move, but Pens fan need to realize that if the answer in goal is just MAF and good back-up goalie like Vokoun/Harding, then the team is looking at spending around 7 mil at the position, being among the league leaders, and then look at the type of play they're getting for that amount of money. Is that really the best the Pens could do for 7 mil in goal? I don't think so and think it's a real question the team needs to ask itself. They're already paying a premium at defense with no results and that amount of money poured on the defense will only grow greater when Letang's contract is up. Letang is set to be a free-agent when the Pens will still have 9 mil tied up into Martin and Michalek and likely will still have MAF and back-up making near 7 mil and this is not even considering new contracts, and likely raises, for Sid & Geno. The Pens are really close to having some serious cap problems if they don't either jettison some of the defenseman contracts or look in a different direction in goal. A goalie making 5 mil per shouldn't need a back-up that can realistically demand 1.5-2 million dollar contract. There's just likely to be a lot of money poured into goal for this team next year and Shero and company need to really look and see if that's the best way to go about things.


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05-03-2012, 07:45 PM
  #56
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It ain't gonna happen, but if I were inclined to make any major change, it would be parting ways with Fleury. I'm just kind of at the end of my rope with him. Why pay $5M for such unreliability? If he needs to be well insulated by his defense to be effective anyway, then surely they could do just as well for a fraction of the price.

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05-03-2012, 07:52 PM
  #57
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It ain't gonna happen, but if I were inclined to make any major change, it would be parting ways with Fleury. I'm just kind of at the end of my rope with him. Why pay $5M for such unreliability? If he needs to be well insulated by his defense to be effective anyway, then surely they could do just as well for a fraction of the price.
Yep, that's my exact point. When it comes to talking about MAF improving his play, it always come down to the d needing to play better, MAF needing to be confident in his team to play well, he needs to play less games when he's not playing a ton of games to begin with and so on. It gets to a point where you have to ask yourself, why are we paying 5 mil for MAF when he has all these qualifiers? At least when a guy like Tim Thomas is handled with kid gloves he puts up sparkling numbers. I have a hard time seeing MAF putting up mulitple .930+ save% seasons because of better handling by the team.

Also, for anyone who wants to start an argument for MAF by talking about he has 40+wins and has x for his career, etc., realize that the Pens over the last 6 years have an average finish of 5th in the league in goals for, which is even a bit misleading considering that number is harpooned by last year's Sid and Geno-less campaign that still finished an above-average 12th. Most goalies are going to rack up wins when they're playing for a team that is year-in,year-out scoring 250+ goals a year. They have also average 3.09 goals per game in the playoffs during that same time frame, the league average was 2.66.


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05-03-2012, 08:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
It ain't gonna happen, but if I were inclined to make any major change, it would be parting ways with Fleury. I'm just kind of at the end of my rope with him. Why pay $5M for such unreliability? If he needs to be well insulated by his defense to be effective anyway, then surely they could do just as well for a fraction of the price.
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Yep, that's my exact point. When it comes to talking about MAF improving his play, it always come down to the d needing to play better, MAF needing to be confident in his team to play well, he needs to play less games when he's not playing a ton of games to begin with and so on. It gets to a point where you have to ask yourself, why are we paying 5 mil for MAF when he has all these qualifiers? At least when a guy like Tim Thomas is handled with kid gloves he puts up sparking numbers. I have a hard time seeing MAF putting up mulitple .930+ save% seasons because of better handling by the team.

Also, for anyone who wants to start an argument for MAF by talking about he has 40+wins and has x for his career, etc., realize that the Pens over the last 6 years have an average finish of 5th in the league in goals for, which is even a bit misleading considering that number is harpooned by last year's Sid and Geno-less campaign that still finished an above-average 12th. Most goalies are going to rack up wins when they're playing for a team that is year-in,year-out scoring 250+ goals a year. They have also average 3.09 goals per game in the playoffs during that same time frame, the league average was 2.66 .
Agreed with all this.. Especially when we're not only paying Fleury $5 million, but talking about bringing in a backup like Vokoun or Harding who will undoubtedly command at least a million if not more. And for what? Just in case Fleury sucks? That's just a bad investment under a salary cap.

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05-03-2012, 08:15 PM
  #59
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Yeah we should save as much cap as possible at the goalie position. It's not that important.

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05-03-2012, 08:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Yeah we should save as much cap as possible at the goalie position. It's not that important.
Yeah, instead they should pay MAF and back-up a lot of money for average results. It's not like they could use the money to keep Staal or something.

I don't think the Pens would be too hard pressed to find a goalie that could put up a .910 save% and average goals against and be terrible in the playoffs for less than 5 million bucks. Might just be me though.

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05-03-2012, 08:20 PM
  #61
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Yeah we should save as much cap as possible at the goalie position. It's not that important.
Nobody said that.

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05-03-2012, 08:30 PM
  #62
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Yeah, instead they should pay MAF and back-up a lot of money for average results. It's not like they could use the money to keep Staal or something.

I don't think the Pens would be too hard pressed to find a goalie that could put up a .910 save% and average goals against and be terrible in the playoffs for less than 5 million bucks. Might just be me though.
Neither Harding or Vokoun do what Fleury did for us in 09. Even coming off one of the worst performances ever those guy's aren't better options.

The goal is to win cups & to that your goalie has to be great. Even Osgood made some great saves for the Wings in their last cup. Unless you bring in some one who has the potential to be better it's a back wards move.

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05-03-2012, 08:43 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Neither Harding or Vokoun do what Fleury did for us in 09. Even coming off one of the worst performances ever those guy's aren't better options.

The goal is to win cups & to that your goalie has to be great. Even Osgood made some great saves for the Wings in their last cup. Unless you bring in some one who has the potential to be better it's a back wards move.
When did those guys ever have the same opportunity to backstop a Cup caliber team? You really can't say they couldn't do it. Worse goalies have gone on runs.

Look at the whole history, Fleury has imploded more often than he's stolen a series.

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05-03-2012, 08:58 PM
  #64
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Neither Harding or Vokoun do what Fleury did for us in 09. Even coming off one of the worst performances ever those guy's aren't better options.

The goal is to win cups & to that your goalie has to be great. Even Osgood made some great saves for the Wings in their last cup. Unless you bring in some one who has the potential to be better it's a back wards move.
Fleury hasn't been great in the playoffs since 08. Even in 09 he was equal to Marty Biron, getting outplayed by Varlamov or shoveling pucks into his own net against the Red Wings. He came up huge when he had to, but he was also a big reason why the Penguins went down 0-2 in the Finals, and why the Caps series wasn't over in 5 or 6.

And if you're comfortable with a goaltender performing as Fleury did in 09, that's cool. He definitely hasn't done anything since then.. and whatever clutch abilities he established for himself in 08 and 09 were just as quickly erased in the past 2-3 playoffs.

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05-03-2012, 09:00 PM
  #65
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It's really not even a question of X or Y goalie being better or worse than Fleury. People dismiss guys like Mike Smith by saying that he's insulated by his defense. But they you hear that Fleury underperforms because he needs better protection by his defense. Clearly, to succeed goalies need some insulation from their defense.

For a while this thinking prevailed that Fleury was so valuable to the Pens because his amazing athletic ability enabled the Pens to play an uptempo, open style to best take advantage of their talent up front, and Fleury was one of the few goaltenders good enough to bail them out time and again. While he would never lead the league in stats, this formula would lead to a lot of wins. That thinking should be thoroughly blown up at this point, you clearly can't win in the playoffs like that. And that's when you start questioning if Fleury is really worth his salary. His mental fragility and terrible puckhandling, and things like that weigh into the question.

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05-03-2012, 09:22 PM
  #66
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I have been thinking about what the Penguins team needs and I think its a d-man with a heavy, accurate slap shot. Something to draw the defense out to the point and open up the middle for the forwards. We haven't had that since Gonchar. Maybe Morrow brings that next year. The 11-12 roster of Dmen aren't really a threat to score from the point. The only exception is Letang but he seems to favor the wrist shot and it seems that his goals are scored closer to the net.

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05-03-2012, 10:09 PM
  #67
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I have been thinking about what the Penguins team needs and I think its a d-man with a heavy, accurate slap shot. Something to draw the defense out to the point and open up the middle for the forwards. We haven't had that since Gonchar. Maybe Morrow brings that next year. The 11-12 roster of Dmen aren't really a threat to score from the point. The only exception is Letang but he seems to favor the wrist shot and it seems that his goals are scored closer to the net.
Unless there are 2 or 3 trades, there is a bit of a logjam at d already. Pens have Strait & Bortuzzo being open to waivers and Despres that could/should be on the bottom pairing and PP next year.

But, if your looking for a hard shot and PP specialist, Sami Salo is probably available. He was only signed for a 1 year contract last year cause Gillis didnt want to give him a 2 year deal. Salo said he will play somewhere next year while Gillis didnt really say too much in the year end conference.

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05-03-2012, 10:16 PM
  #68
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Fleury hasn't been great in the playoffs since 08. Even in 09 he was equal to Marty Biron, getting outplayed by Varlamov or shoveling pucks into his own net against the Red Wings. He came up huge when he had to, but he was also a big reason why the Penguins went down 0-2 in the Finals, and why the Caps series wasn't over in 5 or 6.

And if you're comfortable with a goaltender performing as Fleury did in 09, that's cool. He definitely hasn't done anything since then.. and whatever clutch abilities he established for himself in 08 and 09 were just as quickly erased in the past 2-3 playoffs.
'08, the Pens steamrolled the East because the East at the time may have well been an AHL League. The addition of Hossa made that run through the East akin to playing against journeymen.

Re-watch that first Final against Detroit, Fleury's only great game was the OT one where Sykora called his shot. He let in some horrible goals that series, including those two killers by Filppula and Zetterberg in game 6.

In '09, he absolutely stole game 4 against Philly and made enough big saves the rest of the way to be able to say he was largely responsible for that series win.

Crosby and the rest of the boys bailed him out big time against Washington. That save in game 7 was great of course, but a lot of **** happened beforehand.

In the Final, he was 50/50, and thankfully that was enough. Let in some laughers the first two games (remember the goal off the backboards and Abdelkader's fadeway jumper?) but was great at home. His performance in games 6 and 7 however speak for themselves.

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05-03-2012, 10:36 PM
  #69
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Elliot for the Blues is ******** the bed right now. Every goalie no matter how well they play is going to have a bad stretch. He was an insulated goalie. Just like Bryz was in Pho. Are you going to tell me Smith is an elite goalie?

The reason Varly, Holtby, Halak all played out of their minds in the playoffs because there was no pressure on them. Who expected them to carry their teams? When you have a rookie in goal the team is more apt to play good D. Good D is confidence.

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05-03-2012, 10:41 PM
  #70
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Shero should make a serious push for Parise. If we could sign him, then move Staal for some good ELC players. Move Martin (of course), and move one of Orpik or Michalek if necessary.

-edit-

I wonder if Martin could be moved back to NJ...

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05-03-2012, 10:45 PM
  #71
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Elliot for the Blues is ******** the bed right now. Every goalie no matter how well they play is going to have a bad stretch. He was an insulated goalie. Just like Bryz was in Pho. Are you going to tell me Smith is an elite goalie?

The reason Varly, Holtby, Halak all played out of their minds in the playoffs because there was no pressure on them. Who expected them to carry their teams? When you have a rookie in goal the team is more apt to play good D. Good D is confidence.
1)The Blues played good D in the beginning of games it didn't stop Elliot from blowing it.

2)Varly, Holtby, & Halak played some great games & even stole some games when the D fell apart. Plus anytime a goalie plays in the playoffs there is pressure.

3)Good D is very little confidence. It's system & discipline. I mean maybe it's confidence in the rest of your team so that you are not chasing the puck trying to do too much. The Pens PK has plenty of confidence & it did nothing.

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05-03-2012, 10:51 PM
  #72
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Shero should make a serious push for Parise. If we could sign him, then move Staal for some good ELC players. Move Martin (of course), and move one of Orpik or Michalek if necessary.

-edit-

I wonder if Martin could be moved back to NJ...
Signing Parise would give us 2 great lines and would ease the loss of Staal if traded.

If he in fact wants a bigger role that the Pens cant give him, getting a couple good young players/picks would go a long way in helping organizational depth.

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05-03-2012, 11:05 PM
  #73
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You don't think there is a reason why Phoenix and Boston always have a top 5 goalie no matter who is in net? You don't think there is a reason why both of St. Louis goalies had outstanding numbers this year? It certainly is all about system. So Fleury has been bad in the playoffs, what about Brodeur's choke job against Carolina in 09? Is he not still one of the greatest? Goalies have bad stretches. Goalies have bad playoff performances. It is just the way it is. Our structure needs fixed.

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05-03-2012, 11:11 PM
  #74
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Signing Parise would give us 2 great lines and would ease the loss of Staal if traded.

If he in fact wants a bigger role that the Pens cant give him, getting a couple good young players/picks would go a long way in helping organizational depth.
Maybe Staal could be moved to Carolina for a deal including Brandon Sutter. While not as good as Staal, he's a decent substitute for his defensive game.

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05-03-2012, 11:17 PM
  #75
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1)The Blues played good D in the beginning of games it didn't stop Elliot from blowing it.

2)Varly, Holtby, & Halak played some great games & even stole some games when the D fell apart. Plus anytime a goalie plays in the playoffs there is pressure.

3)Good D is very little confidence. It's system & discipline. I mean maybe it's confidence in the rest of your team so that you are not chasing the puck trying to do too much. The Pens PK has plenty of confidence & it did nothing.
1) Yes like I said even though he was hot he's not playing up to par now. It's going to happen to every goalie. The playoffs you go cold and the fan base thinks you are the biggest a-hole on the planet.

2) If they made it to the ECF or Cup than yes the pressure is there. Until than it's not a pressure cooker IMO. No teamate is going to say if it wasn't for this rookie in goal. They blame themselves for not insulating him.

3)The confidence is exactly keeping you from doing too much. Over committing and playing the puck out of the net too much. Fleury over committed on almost every piss poor goal these playoffs. He wasn't doing that during the season when we ran a top D.

Regardless the trade Fleury talk happens all the time. He was last years team MVP. He is here to stay like it or not. Hell Martin being here next season wouldn't shock me in the least.

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