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Offseason Discussion Part III (Contract/FA chart in post #1)

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Old
05-04-2012, 12:19 AM
  #76
Hottubber
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Originally Posted by TravisUlrich View Post
Maybe Staal could be moved to Carolina for a deal including Brandon Sutter. While not as good as Staal, he's a decent substitute for his defensive game.
If Pens could do a Staal + something minor for Sutter & 8th overall, i think thats a good deal for both teams.

It gives the Pens a good 2 way 3rd line center, a promising prospect, and the cap to go out and offer a Parise-type player a contract

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05-04-2012, 12:22 AM
  #77
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You don't think there is a reason why Phoenix and Boston always have a top 5 goalie no matter who is in net? You don't think there is a reason why both of St. Louis goalies had outstanding numbers this year? It certainly is all about system. So Fleury has been bad in the playoffs, what about Brodeur's choke job against Carolina in 09? Is he not still one of the greatest? Goalies have bad stretches. Goalies have bad playoff performances. It is just the way it is. Our structure needs fixed.
This is 100% correct.

How many teams with the top offense are left in the playoff's? Only Philly right? The goal should be to fix the D system. How do we go from last years D to the crap fest that was the end of this year.

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05-04-2012, 12:58 AM
  #78
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Fleury hasn't been great in the playoffs since 08. Even in 09 he was equal to Marty Biron, getting outplayed by Varlamov or shoveling pucks into his own net against the Red Wings. He came up huge when he had to, but he was also a big reason why the Penguins went down 0-2 in the Finals, and why the Caps series wasn't over in 5 or 6.
2009: Fleury was our MVP against Philly, Came up HUGE in Game 7 against Washington, didn't really need to do much against Carolina, let in 1 goal in Game 6 and 1 goal in Game 7 in the Stanley Cup Final against Detroit. I think it's safe to say you're selling his '09 run short.

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And if you're comfortable with a goaltender performing as Fleury did in 09, that's cool. He definitely hasn't done anything since then.. and whatever clutch abilities he established for himself in 08 and 09 were just as quickly erased in the past 2-3 playoffs.
2010: Fleury clearly got outplayed by Halak but so did our forwards. Halak at that time was the hottest goalie I had seen since Giguere 2003. Even better than Roloson 2006. And we lost in 7 games, it's not like we got stomped. Fleury more than gave us a chance to win if we could have just buried on Halak.

2011: I'm not sure how anyone can even count this as a playoff run. Our top line was Neal-Letestu-Kovalev for Christ sake! True, we did blow a 3-1 lead but that 3rd win came from a super flukey Double OT goal by Neal. It wasn't like we were dominating that series. Fleury had about 1 really bad game and then we lost Game 7 1-0 and our Powerplay for the series was 1-for-31. Again, Fleury gave us a chance to win. Tampa went onto sweep Washington then come within 1 goal of being in the Stanley Cup Final.

2012: Well, that was ****ing weird. It was partly Fleury but in my opinion, it was more our defense. Maybe I'm wrong, it's hard to diagnose just what was going on. Fleury had to be better, yeah, but it takes a team to go 33% on the PK and for us to let in 3 PK goals?! If you score on the PK it's typically on a breakaway, which Fleury faced a lot of. Fleury wasn't the reason we lost Game 1, and if our PK is even at 67%, we get past the Flyers. Not to totally relieve Fleury, he wasn't sharp either but his gaffs came 5-on-5. My gut feeling is that any goalie in the world wouldn't have been able to make up for how bad our D was. Maybe I'm wrong. That was a really weird series so I can't say with absolute certainty but I don't see it.

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05-04-2012, 01:19 AM
  #79
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Jordan Staal and Paul Martin to Carolina for Skinner Gleason and Sutter

dump Tyler Kennedy for picks/prospects

make a run at Parise

promote Simon Despres

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05-04-2012, 08:05 AM
  #80
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Has Colin Wilson been mentioned yet? He's apparently fallen out of favor in Nashville and has been a healthy scratch, but I think he can be a really good player. Thoughts?
The kids always got some mysterious injury.

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05-04-2012, 08:26 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by SicKFreaK View Post
Jordan Staal and Paul Martin to Carolina for Skinner Gleason and Sutter

dump Tyler Kennedy for picks/prospects

make a run at Parise

promote Simon Despres

Skinner and Staal are pretty even value wise but Gleason and Sutter are worth a ton more than Pual Martin.

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05-04-2012, 09:16 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by SicKFreaK View Post
Jordan Staal and Paul Martin to Carolina for Skinner Gleason and Sutter

dump Tyler Kennedy for picks/prospects

make a run at Parise

promote Simon Despres
done.

Skinner - Crosby - Parise
Kunitz - Malkin - Neal
Cooke - Sutter - Dupuis

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05-04-2012, 09:53 AM
  #83
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Anybody else unable to get interested about hypothetical moves at this point?

We just had a team that looked as strong on paper as any one in memory, really with hardly any apparent weakness, and they still flopped. And people are talking about adding pieces like Parise, as if scoring was the problem. If anything, we need to draw up scenarios that beef up the D.

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05-04-2012, 09:54 AM
  #84
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2009: Fleury was our MVP against Philly, Came up HUGE in Game 7 against Washington, didn't really need to do much against Carolina, let in 1 goal in Game 6 and 1 goal in Game 7 in the Stanley Cup Final against Detroit. I think it's safe to say you're selling his '09 run short.



2010: Fleury clearly got outplayed by Halak but so did our forwards. Halak at that time was the hottest goalie I had seen since Giguere 2003. Even better than Roloson 2006. And we lost in 7 games, it's not like we got stomped. Fleury more than gave us a chance to win if we could have just buried on Halak.

2011: I'm not sure how anyone can even count this as a playoff run. Our top line was Neal-Letestu-Kovalev for Christ sake! True, we did blow a 3-1 lead but that 3rd win came from a super flukey Double OT goal by Neal. It wasn't like we were dominating that series. Fleury had about 1 really bad game and then we lost Game 7 1-0 and our Powerplay for the series was 1-for-31. Again, Fleury gave us a chance to win. Tampa went onto sweep Washington then come within 1 goal of being in the Stanley Cup Final.

2012: Well, that was ****ing weird. It was partly Fleury but in my opinion, it was more our defense. Maybe I'm wrong, it's hard to diagnose just what was going on. Fleury had to be better, yeah, but it takes a team to go 33% on the PK and for us to let in 3 PK goals?! If you score on the PK it's typically on a breakaway, which Fleury faced a lot of. Fleury wasn't the reason we lost Game 1, and if our PK is even at 67%, we get past the Flyers. Not to totally relieve Fleury, he wasn't sharp either but his gaffs came 5-on-5. My gut feeling is that any goalie in the world wouldn't have been able to make up for how bad our D was. Maybe I'm wrong. That was a really weird series so I can't say with absolute certainty but I don't see it.
I guess it depends on your perspective. I thought Fleury was awful in the Montreal series. He didn't give us anything. We lost while only giving up 18 shots a game vs our 40. He let in really timely weak goals to give them the lead and then they sat back and protected the house. Clearly the series was more than just Fleury, but he was bad.

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05-04-2012, 10:12 AM
  #85
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I guess it depends on your perspective. I thought Fleury was awful in the Montreal series. He didn't give us anything. We lost while only giving up 18 shots a game vs our 40. He let in really timely weak goals to give them the lead and then they sat back and protected the house. Clearly the series was more than just Fleury, but he was bad.
That Montreal series still infuriates me. We were SO much better than that team. It took bad games from Fleury and Halak playing out of his mind to make up the difference and it happened. Still, we played right into their gameplan all series. How many of our 40 shots were even close to a scoring chance? I knew Philly was going to make an easy series out of it because they just crashed and banged into the house and made Halak uncomfortable. It was the first example of Bylsma being thoroughly out-coached in a playoff series.

The Tampa series is tough to judge because of the roster we had out there. Fleury was up and down in the series. I wouldn't call it a good series for him, but when you lose in a game 7 1-0 you can't really blame the goalie. The finger can be pointed squarely at the powerplay.

This year there is no finger pointing imo. The majority of the team played bad hockey. Fleury was very bad, but he looked even worse thanks to the atrocious team defense. The players were bad and the coaches were out-coached. Just a bad series for the entire team.

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05-04-2012, 10:21 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
This year there is no finger pointing imo. The majority of the team played bad hockey. Fleury was very bad, but he looked even worse thanks to the atrocious team defense. The players were bad and the coaches were out-coached. Just a bad series for the entire team.
I'd say the series came down to special teams this year. Horrible PK and the PP let in 3 shorties. With a better PK and a PP that actually gives a **** when the puck isn't on their stick, we would be playing NJ right now. Even with how bad Fleury played. Now there is no telling if we'd make it out of this round...

Game 1: The Flyers were 1/1 on the PP. That one PP goal was scored near the end of the 3rd period to tie the game up and send it to OT where we lost.

Game 2: We come out and scored 2 goals, only to let up a SH goal about 3 minutes later. Then in the second period we let up a PP goal with another SH goal right after. There's your ball game. Flyers were 1/2 on the PP.

Game 3: We start off the game strong again with a goal, but 3 minutes later we let up another SH goal. Then the Flyers cash in with another PP goal. Every time we got within striking distance from there on out (until it got out of hand), the Flyers scored a PP goal. The Flyers were 4/7 on the PP.

Game 6: We let the Flyers get up early with a PP goal in the 1st giving them enough momentum to carry them through the rest of the game.


Last edited by MrBurgundy: 05-04-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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05-04-2012, 10:30 AM
  #87
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That Montreal series still infuriates me. We were SO much better than that team. It took bad games from Fleury and Halak playing out of his mind to make up the difference and it happened. Still, we played right into their gameplan all series. How many of our 40 shots were even close to a scoring chance? I knew Philly was going to make an easy series out of it because they just crashed and banged into the house and made Halak uncomfortable. It was the first example of Bylsma being thoroughly out-coached in a playoff series.

The Tampa series is tough to judge because of the roster we had out there. Fleury was up and down in the series. I wouldn't call it a good series for him, but when you lose in a game 7 1-0 you can't really blame the goalie. The finger can be pointed squarely at the powerplay.

This year there is no finger pointing imo. The majority of the team played bad hockey. Fleury was very bad, but he looked even worse thanks to the atrocious team defense. The players were bad and the coaches were out-coached. Just a bad series for the entire team.
I agree with all of this. None of these series were solely on Fleury (it is a team game after all). I was just pointing out that he wasn't the first year he sucked in the playoffs. The shot totals in the Montreal series were certainly misleading. We fired a ton from the perimeter that most goalies would stop. Your analysis is spot on IMO.

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05-04-2012, 10:33 AM
  #88
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I'd say the series came down to special teams this year. Horrible PK and the PP let in 3 shorties. With a better PK and a PP that actually gives a **** when the puck isn't on their stick, we would be playing NJ right now. Even with how bad Fleury played. Now there is no telling if we'd make it out of this round...

Game 1: The Flyers were 1/1 on the PP. That one PP goal was scored near the end of the 3rd period to tie the game up and send it to OT where we lost.

Game 2: We come out and score 2 goals, only to let up a SH goal about 3 minutes later. Then in the second period we let up a PP goal with another SH goal right after. There's your ball game. Flyers were 1/2 on the PP.

Game 3: We start off the game strong again with a goal, but 3 minutes later we let up another SH goal. Then the Flyers cash in with another PP goal. Every time we got within striking distance from there on out (until it got out of hand), the Flyers scored a PP goal. The Flyers were 4/7 on the PP.

Game 6: We let the Flyers get up early with a PP goal in the 1st giving them enough momentum to carry them through the rest of the game.
Yep. A 50% PK would have won the series most likely.

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05-04-2012, 10:34 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I'd say the series came down to special teams this year. Horrible PK and the PP let in 3 shorties. With a better PK and a PP that actually gives a **** when the puck isn't on their stick, we would be playing NJ right now. Even with how bad Fleury played. Now there is no telling if we'd make it out of this round...

Game 1: The Flyers were 1/1 on the PP. That one PP goal was scored near the end of the 3rd period to tie the game up and send it to OT where we lost.

Game 2: We come out and score 2 goals, only to let up a SH goal about 3 minutes later. Then in the second period we let up 2 PP goals with another SH goal sandwiched in between. There's your ball game.

Game 3: We start off the game strong again with a goal, but 3 minutes later we let up another SH goal. Then the Flyers cash in with another PP goal. Every time we got within striking distance from there on out (until it got out of hand), the Flyers scored a PP goal.

Game 6: We let the Flyers get up early with a PP goal in the 1st giving them enough momentum to carry them through the rest of the game.
Yeah special teams was certainly the biggest factor. It's just amazing how automatic the Flyers PP was against us and how brutal it is against NJ. I know I keep coming back to this, but why Bylsma didn't change the personnel on the PK (with Malkin, Crosby, Kunitz, etc.), for even a shift, to try and throw off the Philly PP is beyond me. It really infuriates me. I need to just let it go but it's the one area that I blame significantly on coaching in that series.

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05-04-2012, 10:38 AM
  #90
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Yeah special teams was certainly the biggest factor. It's just amazing how automatic the Flyers PP was against us and how brutal it is against NJ. I know I keep coming back to this, but why Bylsma didn't change the personnel on the PK (with Malkin, Crosby, Kunitz, etc.), for even a shift, to try and throw off the Philly PP is beyond me. It really infuriates me. I need to just let it go but it's the one area that I blame significantly on coaching in that series.
I'm right there with ya. It pisses me off to no ends how our awesome PK (in the regular season) with all of our grinders who people claim are so valuable to this team, couldn't do anything to stop Philly's PP. The coaching staff kept trotting them out there expecting different results, when clearly they were outmatched. It was a complete joke, and that's something that has to change next season.

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05-04-2012, 10:38 AM
  #91
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I'd say the series came down to special teams this year. Horrible PK and the PP let in 3 shorties. With a better PK and a PP that actually gives a **** when the puck isn't on their stick, we would be playing NJ right now. Even with how bad Fleury played. Now there is no telling if we'd make it out of this round...
that's true. Still though, when you combine the PP and PK units that is the majority of our players and definitely coaching.

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05-04-2012, 10:39 AM
  #92
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Luongo is better than MAF, there's no two ways about it. His playoff "meltdowns" are way overblown but he is torched for it because of his attitude (the Tim Thomas tire pumping stuff) and because he plays in a rabid market....
This is more or less how I look at it. Realistically it's pretty hard to argue that Luongo wouldn't give us a better chance to win. Clearly once re-unite with Sid the Gold Medal Magic will return. But seriously he is a better goalie, so as much as I prefer Fleury's attitude in the room, it's hard to understand (unless it's the contract) why people say they wouldn't trade MAF for Luongo. It won't happen of course because VAN doesn't need MAF but in theory people should be all for it, IF the objective is to obtain a better goalie.


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Fleury hasn't been great in the playoffs since 08. Even in 09 he was equal to Marty Biron, getting outplayed by Varlamov or shoveling pucks into his own net against the Red Wings. He came up huge when he had to, but he was also a big reason why the Penguins went down 0-2 in the Finals, and why the Caps series wasn't over in 5 or 6.

And if you're comfortable with a goaltender performing as Fleury did in 09, that's cool. He definitely hasn't done anything since then.. and whatever clutch abilities he established for himself in 08 and 09 were just as quickly erased in the past 2-3 playoffs.
This is all accurate IMO, as much as I don't like to admit it (as a fan of MAF). Flower was great at the right times / when our backs were to the wall in '09, but he wasn't great overall and had some really bad moments / bad mental lapses. Which, you always prefer technique problems to mental issues with goalies. Techniques can be fixed. Mental weaknesses are much tougher to overcome.


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Elliot for the Blues is ******** the bed right now. Every goalie no matter how well they play is going to have a bad stretch. He was an insulated goalie. Just like Bryz was in Pho. Are you going to tell me Smith is an elite goalie?
Tippett brought Smith to PHX for a reason; he saw something in him / he felt there was big potential there. I wouldn't call Smith "elite" until he does what he did this year, at least two or three seasons in a row. However he has definitely improved his game. That aside, all goalies with great statistics, are great in part because they have good D around them who force lots of bad angle shots, etc. It's extremely rare to find dominant goalies who play behind crappy or mediocre defenses. Roy and Brodeur played some of their best years behind very good D squads.


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Originally Posted by SicKFreaK View Post
Jordan Staal and Paul Martin to Carolina for Skinner Gleason and Sutter
Skinner is arguably worth as much or more than Staal. He'll never be as good defensively but he's not bad in that regard and he's definitely more skilled offensively. They wouldn't do that deal IMO. We'd have to add an early draft pick or great prospect.

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05-04-2012, 11:02 AM
  #93
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UNRESTRICTED FREE AGENTS
Player..................
Pos.
Age
2011-12
News & Notes
Steve Sullivan
LW
37
1,500,000
Seems to be a significant help to the power play
Arron Asham
RW
33
775,000
Suspension probably punched ticket out of town
Brent Johnson
G
34
600,000
Game suddenly fell off a cliff this winter
Steve MacIntyre
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31
600,000
Is Shero's stance on enforcers changing?
Alexandre Picard
D
26
600,000
Will likely move along for a better crack at the NHL
Jason Williams
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31
600,000
Disappointing as an NHL depth signing
Richard Park
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35
550,000
Reasonable option as a 13th/14th forward
Ryan Craig
C
30
525,000
WBS captain two years running
Colin McDonald
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27
525,000
Dropped off to just 14 goals this season
Scott Munroe
G
30
525,000
Veteran AHL option who can carry the load
Brad Thiessen
G
25
525,000
Group VI UFA -- Spring NHL audition underwhelming
I don't want to derail the Fleury discussion but I wanted to get some thoughts on any UFAs that we would actually want to keep. Frankly I'd be fine with scrapping everyone on the list, but would consider reupping Sullivan and Asham for limited usage.

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If Pens could do a Staal + something minor for Sutter & 8th overall, i think thats a good deal for both teams.
I like that deal, getting the 8th would allow us to get another good D or a forward like Zemgus Girgensons or Teuvo Teravainen (both of whom I'd like to think would still be available by then).

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05-04-2012, 11:08 AM
  #94
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Skinner and Staal are pretty even value wise but Gleason and Sutter are worth a ton more than Pual Martin.
I would do Staal + 1st/good prospect for Skinner + Allen's rights

I know, people would hate to trade 1st but Skinner is younger, ELC, will be RFA and the end of his contract and will sign his 2nd contract, not 3rd.

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05-04-2012, 12:36 PM
  #95
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I don't want to derail the Fleury discussion but I wanted to get some thoughts on any UFAs that we would actually want to keep. Frankly I'd be fine with scrapping everyone on the list, but would consider reupping Sullivan and Asham for limited usage.



I like that deal, getting the 8th would allow us to get another good D or a forward like Zemgus Girgensons or Teuvo Teravainen (both of whom I'd like to think would still be available by then).
Asham's legs are gone & he wasn't that fast to begin with. He looked out of shape, slow, & made bad decisions.

Sullivan helps the PP a lot but is a defensive liability. He's the only guy on that list that I would be alright with coming back but I would prefer some one who isn't horrible on defense.

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05-04-2012, 12:42 PM
  #96
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There is no way Luongo is a better goalie then Fleury, I don't care what anyone says or provides for an argument. He's just not.

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05-04-2012, 12:44 PM
  #97
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There is no way Luongo is a better goalie then Fleury, I don't care what anyone says or provides for an argument. He's just not.
Sweet argument. "I'm right because I said so".

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05-04-2012, 01:03 PM
  #98
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There is no way Luongo is a better goalie then Fleury, I don't care what anyone says or provides for an argument. He's just not.
He absolutely is.

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05-04-2012, 01:44 PM
  #99
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I guess it depends on your perspective. I thought Fleury was awful in the Montreal series. He didn't give us anything. We lost while only giving up 18 shots a game vs our 40. He let in really timely weak goals to give them the lead and then they sat back and protected the house. Clearly the series was more than just Fleury, but he was bad.
Perspective my ass.

He was beyond awful against Montreal. He was also terrible in the Ottawa series (anyone remember game 1?) but the team - Sid especially - bailed him out big time.

Jesus nobody remembers Pyatt's goal from the goal line in game 4 in the first minute of the game? Nobody remembers that awful Lapierre wraparound or Spacek's goal from the point that went UNDER him on an attempted kick save?

But scratch all that. We go to game 7, and it's a goal from the icing line again in the first minute of the game. Then Moore's fadeaway jumper (think Jagr goal in game 2, but from the ****ing CIRCLE!!!) to make it 2-0.

And why is everyone giggling at the Luongo comparisons? If Fleury was in a Canadian market playing the exact same way he has, his treatment from fans and media would be about 10 times worse than what Luongo gets.

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05-04-2012, 02:00 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
Asham's legs are gone & he wasn't that fast to begin with. He looked out of shape, slow, & made bad decisions.

Sullivan helps the PP a lot but is a defensive liability. He's the only guy on that list that I would be alright with coming back but I would prefer some one who isn't horrible on defense.
Prust will be UFA ... any interest in him as a replacement for Asham?

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