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Other Chicago Sports Thread VIII - Baseball Ain't Better Here!

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05-04-2012, 02:23 AM
  #76
sedag
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Agree that Marmol's 16K/IP arm is no longer. Just found quotes that speak to his search for an additional weapon. Merely words until we see it.

Other closers have had one pitch but they put "HOF" under their autographs.

Third Pitch

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05-04-2012, 07:59 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
He doesn't repeat his mechanics. That's not hard to learn. Don't forget, he's a converted catcher.
At this point in his career he is what he is. He's not going to change his mechanics or approach. Closers rarely lose it and then find it again

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05-04-2012, 08:23 AM
  #78
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He's 29 and this is his 7th season a pitcher. I don't see how anyone can be optimistic that it will just suddenly click.

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05-04-2012, 09:06 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sedag View Post
Agree that Marmol's 16K/IP arm is no longer. Just found quotes that speak to his search for an additional weapon. Merely words until we see it.

Other closers have had one pitch but they put "HOF" under their autographs.

Third Pitch
Several closers only have 2-3 pitches at most and are successful, If you can hit your target 9/10 a fastball changeup only pitcher will dominate. Jaime Moyer is almost 50 can barely reach 70 but just shut down an MLB team because he can mix, inside, outside, high, low and change speeds which is all you need.

Marmol can add all he wants but if you can't hit your target who cares, stuff is meaningless if it's over the heart of the plate or 3 ft outside. Marmol is a head case who isn't effective enough to be a reliable asset in a bullpen.

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05-04-2012, 09:06 AM
  #80
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So if you can trade Garza and Dempster but it brings you back 5 really good prospects back do you do it? Would mean that you will suck terribly again next year but the Cubs could stock their farm system pretty fast.

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05-04-2012, 09:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
So if you can trade Garza and Dempster but it brings you back 5 really good prospects back do you do it? Would mean that you will suck terribly again next year but the Cubs could stock their farm system pretty fast.
What realistically could the Cubs do to prevent that?

I think it's time for the Cubs to bottom out and restart fresh, this team isn't slightly close and it's best players are all younger so it's time to blow it up and hope that in 2015 you are competing for a pennant again.

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05-04-2012, 09:14 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
There is no bad time to trade Marmol for the very reason you just said. If you can get him off of your books and not have to pay his salary...thats a huge win.
No team with a sane GM would take on that cotnract, given his mediocre at best season last year, and horrid start this year.


Last edited by RayP: 05-04-2012 at 09:20 AM.
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05-04-2012, 09:21 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
So if you can trade Garza and Dempster but it brings you back 5 really good prospects back do you do it? Would mean that you will suck terribly again next year but the Cubs could stock their farm system pretty fast.
You do that every day of the week. By the time this teams prospects start to bloom, and really come up, these guys will be on their way out. Odds are Dempster will be on his decline at that point, and who knows what happens with Garza in the long run, and how much money he asks for. Just save yourself the cash, and stock up on younger and cheaper talent.

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05-04-2012, 09:39 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
What realistically could the Cubs do to prevent that?

I think it's time for the Cubs to bottom out and restart fresh, this team isn't slightly close and it's best players are all younger so it's time to blow it up and hope that in 2015 you are competing for a pennant again.
They could go the other way and sign Garza long term, go after Sanchez or Hammels, and resign Dempster.

Hammels
Garza
Dempster
Samardzija

you can compete if you have that pitching staff. Plus I think they only have like $60 mil in contracts heading into next off season. If they wanted to spend big, they could compete in the short term, espeically if Rizzo comes up and performs as people hope.

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05-04-2012, 09:40 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by RayP View Post
No team with a sane GM would take on that cotnract, given his mediocre at best season last year, and horrid start this year.
Agreed, thats why I was saying there is no bad time to trade Marmol.

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05-04-2012, 09:43 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by RayP View Post
You do that every day of the week. By the time this teams prospects start to bloom, and really come up, these guys will be on their way out. Odds are Dempster will be on his decline at that point, and who knows what happens with Garza in the long run, and how much money he asks for. Just save yourself the cash, and stock up on younger and cheaper talent.
I tend to agree. If they could get 1 or 2 top arms and a top position player and 2 more solid prospects I think you have to do it. End up with the #6 pick in this years draft, most likely a top 3 pick in next years draft, hopefully Jorge Soler, and a farm system with 4 or 5 promising players....thats a good start.

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05-04-2012, 10:19 AM
  #87
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Carlos Marmol = Bobby Thigpen

Hitters have figured him out like they eventually figured out Thig's fastball

Once that happened his career fell apart

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05-04-2012, 10:27 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
I tend to agree. If they could get 1 or 2 top arms and a top position player and 2 more solid prospects I think you have to do it. End up with the #6 pick in this years draft, most likely a top 3 pick in next years draft, hopefully Jorge Soler, and a farm system with 4 or 5 promising players....thats a good start.
Hell, it doesn't even have to be a top prospect IMO, just get the best haul you can. They really aren't going to go anywhere while those two are stil on the roster, so what's the different in winning 75 games instead of 65? Not worth it, only hurting the draft pick at that point.

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05-04-2012, 10:29 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Carlos Marmol = Bobby Thigpen

Hitters have figured him out like they eventually figured out Thig's fastball

Once that happened his career fell apart
Not really, it's more of lack of control and him not throwing the right pitch at the right time. He's not like say Ziegler, who once his odd delivery was figured out he was solved and mediocre. Marmol still has filthy stuff, it's just not being used properly or smartly on his part.

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05-04-2012, 10:31 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
Several closers only have 2-3 pitches at most and are successful, If you can hit your target 9/10 a fastball changeup only pitcher will dominate. Jaime Moyer is almost 50 can barely reach 70 but just shut down an MLB team because he can mix, inside, outside, high, low and change speeds which is all you need.

Marmol can add all he wants but if you can't hit your target who cares, stuff is meaningless if it's over the heart of the plate or 3 ft outside. Marmol is a head case who isn't effective enough to be a reliable asset in a bullpen.
Control is definitely essential especially for relievers/closers who don't have 6+ innings to even out being "effectively wild". And Marmol's control may never return, may get worse. My suggestion is that adding another pitch - one that is easier to get to the strike zone than a slider namely a splitter - makes some sense. And when a splitter misses it usually hits dirt which can still result in a swing and miss.

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05-04-2012, 10:42 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayP View Post
Not really, it's more of lack of control and him not throwing the right pitch at the right time. He's not like say Ziegler, who once his odd delivery was figured out he was solved and mediocre. Marmol still has filthy stuff, it's just not being used properly or smartly on his part.
Yeah, the guy just can't hit the strikezone. No one's teeing off him.

The botched sure DP at 3rd certainly didn't help him...

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05-04-2012, 10:44 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Illinihockey View Post
So if you can trade Garza and Dempster but it brings you back 5 really good prospects back do you do it? Would mean that you will suck terribly again next year but the Cubs could stock their farm system pretty fast.
At current performance and ignoring any possible additions a top of the rotation in 2013 could look a lot worse than

Garza
Samardzija
Dempster

That presumes Dempster signs at a discount to stick around. Guy is 3rd in the league in WHIP and 1st in ERA with horrible run support.

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05-04-2012, 10:54 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by sedag View Post
At current performance and ignoring any possible additions a top of the rotation in 2013 could look a lot worse than

Garza
Samardzija
Dempster

That presumes Dempster signs at a discount to stick around. Guy is 3rd in the league in WHIP and 1st in ERA with horrible run support.
It's just wasted money to keep Dempster around. I don't know how much he loves, if at all, the Chicago area and how resistant he would be to leave... But why would he take a discount to place for a team that would be incredibly lucky to win 80 games next year? Not to mention, if he continues to have a great year... Won't the Cubs get some solid supp. picks if they do let him walk? It just doesn't make sense to keep him around, same with Garza if you ask me. Hell, I'd trade Shark if you could get some decent prospects for him, but I personlly hate the guy as a baseball player.

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05-04-2012, 11:02 AM
  #94
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We need to lock up Garza. He'll be very good for many more years. Dempster should be able to bring back a very useful piece or two if he keeps pitching like this.

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05-04-2012, 11:13 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by RayP View Post
Not really, it's more of lack of control and him not throwing the right pitch at the right time. He's not like say Ziegler, who once his odd delivery was figured out he was solved and mediocre. Marmol still has filthy stuff, it's just not being used properly or smartly on his part.
Ok

Marmol = Billy Koch

What an awful trade that was ,, Only saving grace was Neal Cotts 1 year of great play helping Sox win WS

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05-04-2012, 11:22 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
We need to lock up Garza. He'll be very good for many more years. Dempster should be able to bring back a very useful piece or two if he keeps pitching like this.
No thanks. Closing in on 1000 IP in the Majors, not including another 300+ in the Minors. For whatever reason, he went from throwing his slider 13% his entire career, to about 25% with the Cubs. Sliders have shown to be one of the most stressful pitches that can be thrown, and he's already on the max effort side as is. He's also going to be 29 years old this year, so it's not like he's just starting his career. Trade him.

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05-04-2012, 11:48 AM
  #97
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No thanks. Closing in on 1000 IP in the Majors, not including another 300+ in the Minors. For whatever reason, he went from throwing his slider 13% his entire career, to about 25% with the Cubs. Sliders have shown to be one of the most stressful pitches that can be thrown, and he's already on the max effort side as is. He's also going to be 29 years old this year, so it's not like he's just starting his career. Trade him.
Minimal injury history. Unit threw sliders all the time.

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05-04-2012, 12:02 PM
  #98
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Minimal injury history. Unit threw sliders all the time.
He is a one of a kind pitcher... You know who also threw a lot of sliders? Wood.

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05-04-2012, 12:39 PM
  #99
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It's just wasted money to keep Dempster around. I don't know how much he loves, if at all, the Chicago area and how resistant he would be to leave... But why would he take a discount to place for a team that would be incredibly lucky to win 80 games next year? Not to mention, if he continues to have a great year... Won't the Cubs get some solid supp. picks if they do let him walk? It just doesn't make sense to keep him around, same with Garza if you ask me. Hell, I'd trade Shark if you could get some decent prospects for him, but I personlly hate the guy as a baseball player.
Dempster giving the team a discount is just conjecture on my part. I can't be sure but I thought he had expressed desire to stay a Cub the rest of the way but who knows.

It will be interesting to see if Shark can sustain his level of play this season. If so he'll be awfully tough to let go.

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05-04-2012, 12:51 PM
  #100
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Dempster giving the team a discount is just conjecture on my part. I can't be sure but I thought he had expressed desire to stay a Cub the rest of the way but who knows.

It will be interesting to see if Shark can sustain his level of play this season. If so he'll be awfully tough to let go.
I think I remember him saying that he loves the area, and that is family is here, but I could be wrong in that. Still, they just don't match up well for another 3-4 year deal, which will be what he deserves and should get.

I'd have zero interest in trading him to stock the system. Already 27, always had erratic control at best. If he can become a mid-3 ERA guy, 1.20 base runners an inning with a K as well... Move him, you could get good value for that. If he had put it together a couple years ago, I'd agree with you.... but this is his 5th season with action in the Bigs already.

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