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The FAN 1200 - Pierre McGuire - 3rd overall vs J. Staal??

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Old
05-04-2012, 09:51 AM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The only upgrade Staal has over Plekanec is size...and I think size at center is hugely overrated. There is nothing to indicate that having a 6'3" #1 will win you a cup before a 5'11" #1.

It's not worth adding a guy with no contract beyong 12-13 and moving a guy signed at a very good rate for 4 more years PLUS giving up a great young asset.

Sure Staal is more proven than the #3 overall pick, but that player probably has more upside than 55-60 points and won't cost us 6 mil in cap room. It would be terrible use of assets.
I wouldn't deal Pleks + the #3 pick for Staal that would be overpayment.

But a deal surrounding the #3 pick + for Staal... that's something we would have to consider.

I'm confused by the cynicism surrounding Staal. We're talking about a 23 year old incredibly polished 6'4 natural center. Great skater, great in his own zone, and untapped offensive potential playing behind the two greatest offensive centers in the game right now.

If Staal was in this draft year I bet we would all be dying for us to draft him so why wouldn't we consider trading for him? Sure there's a bit of risk with his contract status... but there's also risk in the draft.

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05-04-2012, 09:55 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
I wouldn't deal Pleks + the #3 pick for Staal that would be overpayment.

But a deal surrounding the #3 pick + for Staal... that's something we would have to consider.

I'm confused by the cynicism surrounding Staal. We're talking about a 23 year old incredibly polished 6'4 natural center. Great skater, great in his own zone, and untapped offensive potential playing behind the two greatest offensive centers in the game right now.

If Staal was in this draft year I bet we would all be dying for us to draft him so why wouldn't we consider trading for him? Sure there's a bit of risk with his contract status... but there's also risk in the draft.
If we had the 3rd overall pick in 2006 when Staal was drafted, there's 4-5 guys I'd draft before Staal. Moreover, if Staal was available THIS year I'd still go with Galchenyuk. Galchenyuk has more points in the OHL as a 16 yr old than Staal did as a 17 yr old.

Given Staal's point production in his draft yr,I'm convinced the only reason he went 2nd overall was because of his size and his last name because there were better players available with better point totals that were drafted after him that have since proved they are way better than Staal. I'm thinking of Toews, Giroux, Kessel, Backstrom.

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Old
05-04-2012, 09:55 AM
  #228
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He's got the wrong Staal. Its Eric

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Old
05-04-2012, 09:55 AM
  #229
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I'd be down for a Staal for a 3rd pick trade
Then I'd trade Plekanec, Weber(or a second) for Sharp


Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Sharp - Staal - Gionta
Moen - Eller - Leblanc
Prust(UFA) - White - Bourque
Staubitz

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Diaz - Allen(signed as UFA)

I would send Gomez and Kaberle to Hamilton
Sign Brandon Prust and Bryan Allen

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Old
05-04-2012, 09:59 AM
  #230
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Plekanec has become terribly overrated on the Habs board

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Old
05-04-2012, 10:02 AM
  #231
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Plekanec has become terribly overrated on the Habs board
Agreed. And now people want to trade our 3rd overall pick for a guy who puts up Plekanec-type numbers.

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Old
05-04-2012, 10:08 AM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroknowledge View Post
I'd be down for a Staal for a 3rd pick trade
Then I'd trade Plekanec, Weber(or a second) for Sharp


Pacioretty - Desharnais - Cole
Sharp - Staal - Gionta
Moen - Eller - Leblanc
Prust(UFA) - White - Bourque
Staubitz

Markov - Emelin
Gorges - Subban
Diaz - Allen(signed as UFA)

I would send Gomez and Kaberle to Hamilton
Sign Brandon Prust and Bryan Allen
I <3 Sharp, but he's 30. :/ I know you're going to say "but Pleky's 29", but I think we should be making moves with a long-term vision, and that means trading for youth.

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05-04-2012, 10:10 AM
  #233
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Trevor Timmins has been this teams best asset for years now. Dont take the bat out of your best hitters hands. You can never say never but unless we get a smokin proposal, say Malkin for our 3rd overall and DD or Eller and a couple prospects, let TT take his shot. He might miss, sure, but its logical given his success to let him have his cut with such a high pick.

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05-04-2012, 10:11 AM
  #234
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Will MB strike a deal with the Hawks for the # 3 overall? I would expect as the season goes on, he might be dealing with Bowman at some point...

I hope the Habs keep the # 3 pick...

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Old
05-04-2012, 10:24 AM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Plekanec has become terribly overrated on the Habs board
He has been our best forward for the last couple of seasons, so goes to tell you something about the rest of our forwards

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
Will MB strike a deal with the Hawks for the # 3 overall? I would expect as the season goes on, he might be dealing with Bowman at some point...

I hope the Habs keep the # 3 pick...
What could possibly Chicago move to us in order for them to acquire that pick?

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Old
05-04-2012, 10:29 AM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Plekanec has become terribly overrated on the Habs board
How so?

I think it's the opposite, I think too many posters think we can dump him and it won't hurt the team when he is the most productive forward we have had the last 3-4 years. Just because he isn't 6'3" half the board wants to dump him.

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Old
05-04-2012, 10:36 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How so?

I think it's the opposite, I think too many posters think we can dump him and it won't hurt the team when he is the most productive forward we have had the last 3-4 years. Just because he isn't 6'3" half the board wants to dump him.
definitely agree.

I'd say that Pleks is more underrated than overrated by the average habs fan.

people get too enamoured with the pts column. Yes, it's important to produce, but just because Plekanec isn't dynamic enough to be an offensive catalyst (at least not consistently), doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the best defensive forwards in the league, while also being solid enough offensively to produce at a decent level even when given a revolving door of mediocre wingers.

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Old
05-04-2012, 10:47 AM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How so?

I think it's the opposite
^This.

Plekanec is a great two-way forward. And we developed him. He is a keeper, imo. As for the pick (likely Galchenyuk) I would rather keep that as well than trade for Staal.

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05-04-2012, 10:48 AM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How so?

I think it's the opposite, I think too many posters think we can dump him and it won't hurt the team when he is the most productive forward we have had the last 3-4 years. Just because he isn't 6'3" half the board wants to dump him.
actually i dont think you realize that in a situation where we acquire another center and want to trade pleky its not cause we think he's useless, but just the opposite its cause he would have the highest trade value.

I like plek but if we get a #1 center plek could fetch as a top 6 winger easily, DD would not.

I'd prefer to keep pleky as #2 though

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Old
05-04-2012, 11:00 AM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Miller Time View Post
definitely agree.

I'd say that Pleks is more underrated than overrated by the average habs fan.

people get too enamoured with the pts column. Yes, it's important to produce, but just because Plekanec isn't dynamic enough to be an offensive catalyst (at least not consistently), doesn't take away from the fact that he's one of the best defensive forwards in the league, while also being solid enough offensively to produce at a decent level even when given a revolving door of mediocre wingers.
He isn't in the elite top center bracket, the top 12-18(not always the same guys) that usually put up 70-100 points and make average players into 25 goal scorers, but he is in the next group that if you give him decent wingers he'll put up 65-70 points while working his butt off and providing you with very good defensive play and PK work.

Instead of worrying about what he ISN'T let's use what he IS and surround him a bit better which will help the team greatly.

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05-04-2012, 11:26 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
He has been our best forward for the last couple of seasons, so goes to tell you something about the rest of our forwards


Best forward? That's debatable...certainly not this year

Last year he was great in the 1st half but slowed down significantly in the 2nd half.

BTW - 'overrated' doesnt mean he's garbage, I just think Habs fans think he's better than he is. I don't agree he's one of the better 2 way forwards in the league, he's good, but there are several as good if not better.

Good player, very useful and can fill in various roles on a team...but I don't think he's part of the core going forward IMO.


Last edited by 417: 05-04-2012 at 11:36 AM.
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05-04-2012, 11:27 AM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
How so?

I think it's the opposite, I think too many posters think we can dump him and it won't hurt the team when he is the most productive forward we have had the last 3-4 years. Just because he isn't 6'3" half the board wants to dump him.
Has nothing to do with size...I like Plekanec as a player quite a bit. But his level of play the last 1.5 years has tailed off, I don't know why so many of you refuse to see this.

He needs to get back to the level he was at prior to signing his contract...

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05-04-2012, 11:30 AM
  #243
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Just keep the pick already. I doubt there is a team out there willing to trade the right piece(s) for the pick so the team is better off keeping the 3rd overall and finally drafting and developing someone properly.

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Old
05-04-2012, 12:04 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by 417 View Post
Best forward? That's debatable...certainly not this year

Last year he was great in the 1st half but slowed down significantly in the 2nd half.

BTW - 'overrated' doesnt mean he's garbage, I just think Habs fans think he's better than he is. I don't agree he's one of the better 2 way forwards in the league, he's good, but there are several as good if not better.

Good player, very useful and can fill in various roles on a team...but I don't think he's part of the core going forward IMO.
To be fair, scoring has dropped off since lockout. It went up then back down. For instance, with 52 points Plek is still top 30 in center points(he's tied for 28th). In 2005-06 52 points gets you 40th.

Plekanec is still a talented piece of the puzzle IMO. It just depends which direction the team goes. if habs acquire a 1st line center or a potential 1B like Staal then Plekanec will have more space to be offensive and should hit 60 points again(which is not a stretch, only 8 pts). 60 points this year? Top 20 in centers.

I think context is very important and if we want to compete next year, Plekanec is certainly a core piece that would help us. If we want to go a new direction, he still may be in the plans but I find it unlikely he'd finish his contract here.

You're right, Plekanec is not one of the best two-way centers in the league but I'd say he's just a notch below. I think Mike Richards is an excellent two-way center and so is kesler and both of them had less than phenomenal years this year. Richards finished with 44 points, very far off from his slightly >PPG pace a few years back.

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05-04-2012, 12:25 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy;49226423[B
]Bergeron's[/B] priority right now is to find the team a head coach.

Pierre McGuire's an insecure attention seeking drama queen with an extreme case of small man syndrome. I can't believe so many wanted him to be our GM.
Bergeron ? Michel or Marc-André ?

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05-04-2012, 12:26 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
To be fair, scoring has dropped off since lockout. It went up then back down. For instance, with 52 points Plek is still top 30 in center points(he's tied for 28th). In 2005-06 52 points gets you 40th.

Plekanec is still a talented piece of the puzzle IMO. It just depends which direction the team goes. if habs acquire a 1st line center or a potential 1B like Staal then Plekanec will have more space to be offensive and should hit 60 points again(which is not a stretch, only 8 pts). 60 points this year? Top 20 in centers.

I think context is very important and if we want to compete next year, Plekanec is certainly a core piece that would help us. If we want to go a new direction, he still may be in the plans but I find it unlikely he'd finish his contract here.

You're right, Plekanec is not one of the best two-way centers in the league but I'd say he's just a notch below. I think Mike Richards is an excellent two-way center and so is kesler and both of them had less than phenomenal years this year. Richards finished with 44 points, very far off from his slightly >PPG pace a few years back.
Habs C depth when pleks scored 69 points: Plekanec - Koivu - Smolinsky - Lapierre/Chipchura
Habs C depth when pleks scored 70pts: Plekanec - Gomez - Metropolit - Lapierre

Kings C depth when Richards scored 44pts: Kopitar - Richards - Stoll - Richardson


Pleks doesn't "need" to play behind a "elite" #1 to be a 70pt producer, but he does need to play with solid wingers.

Had Pleks been given Cole/MaxPac as his wingers for the bulk of the season, he'd have been back in that 65-70pt range imo, regardless of how effective(or not) the other lines would have been.


context is exactly what's missing from the equation when people look at Pleks and try to argue that this team can't succeed with him as the "#1C"...

Hanzal, Legwand & Macdonald are all still alive and kicking on playoff teams, and Plekanec is as good or better than all 3.

Obviously we could "upgrade" on Pleks, but that certainly isn't the same as saying we can't succeed with him as our best C.

if you consider the context, I don't buy that Richards is significantly better offensively. He's had 2 70+ pt seasons, both those years he had multiple fwds on his team that put up ~30 goals. Habs have never had that kind of offensive depth at any point of Pleks' career. Also can't ignore that under Martin, Habs were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league. The one year the habs were a strong offensive team (under Carbo), Pleks was a 70pt guy.


I think if Pleks gets traded, and ends up surrounded by some offensive talent, he'd put up the kind of offensive production that would quickly make us yet again lament the loss of a player who flourishes elsewhere.

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05-04-2012, 12:26 PM
  #247
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Bergeron ? Michel or Marc-André ?
Patrice actually.

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Old
05-04-2012, 12:32 PM
  #248
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Patrice actually.
That's way better !

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05-04-2012, 12:34 PM
  #249
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Habs C depth when pleks scored 69 points: Plekanec - Koivu - Smolinsky - Lapierre/Chipchura
Habs C depth when pleks scored 70pts: Plekanec - Gomez - Metropolit - Lapierre

Kings C depth when Richards scored 44pts: Kopitar - Richards - Stoll - Richardson


Pleks doesn't "need" to play behind a "elite" #1 to be a 70pt producer, but he does need to play with solid wingers.

Had Pleks been given Cole/MaxPac as his wingers for the bulk of the season, he'd have been back in that 65-70pt range imo, regardless of how effective(or not) the other lines would have been.


context is exactly what's missing from the equation when people look at Pleks and try to argue that this team can't succeed with him as the "#1C"...

Hanzal, Legwand & Macdonald are all still alive and kicking on playoff teams, and Plekanec is as good or better than all 3.

Obviously we could "upgrade" on Pleks, but that certainly isn't the same as saying we can't succeed with him as our best C.

if you consider the context, I don't buy that Richards is significantly better offensively. He's had 2 70+ pt seasons, both those years he had multiple fwds on his team that put up ~30 goals. Habs have never had that kind of offensive depth at any point of Pleks' career. Also can't ignore that under Martin, Habs were one of the lowest scoring teams in the league. The one year the habs were a strong offensive team (under Carbo), Pleks was a 70pt guy.


I think if Pleks gets traded, and ends up surrounded by some offensive talent, he'd put up the kind of offensive production that would quickly make us yet again lament the loss of a player who flourishes elsewhere.
Actually, Pleks need to play less minutes to be effective. No way this guy can play 82 games with nearly 20 minutes a game on ES, PP and PK. He is not physically built for that. That is why he is playing "like a little girl" when the playoffs start.

I hope the next coach will use him better. I hope Bergevin gonna find new players to play on PK and better and bigger wingers for Pleks

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05-04-2012, 01:03 PM
  #250
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While Staal is a very good player he'll become expensive sooner than a newly drafted #3. Besides, he isn't a potentially game-breaking sniper/playmaker like his older brother. Having said that, I wish the highest rated players eligible for the 2012 draft (after Yakupov) were more attractive.

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