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Old
05-05-2012, 03:34 PM
  #76
Haute Couturier
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
All of this koolaid and expectations talk is just covering up the reality - they have gone backwards defensively. Someone needs to be held accountable for that.
I completely agree.

Losing solid defensive forwards like Gagne, Carter, Richards, Powe, Versteeg, and Betts in the last two years with no attempt to replace what they bring to the table in the defensive zone wasn't very smart.

Building a defense around two 37 year old defenders that are more likely to get injured and/or experience a decline with no plan to replace them was risky at best. The problem is compounded when one of your depth defenseman is a complete bust (Walker), another was a poor signing (Lilja) and one of the deadline acquisitions you paid a steep price for (Kubina) is another complete bust.


If they are eliminated due to defensive woes the man who created this problem and failed to adequately address it should be held accountable.

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05-05-2012, 03:35 PM
  #77
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3 out of the 4 teams in the east focus on team defense and fore checking. The bottom line is we don't have the players for that system. We lack defensive minded forwards. Just watch the rags/was series. Its all defense and timely goals off turnovers. Its rare your gonna score on a rush. We might get men back but we lost Couts. We just can't get any luck.

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05-05-2012, 04:15 PM
  #78
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Schenn should headline a package for a top pairing defenseman, so if the Flyers enter next season with...

JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Hartnell - Briere - Read
Wellwood - Couturier - Simmonds
Talbot - X - Rinaldo

X- Timonen
Coburn - Grossman
Meszaros - Gus

The team should be pretty solid defensively. JVR, Simmonds and especially Briere will still be mediocre defensively, but a majority of this defensive talk swings on whether Bryz will figure out how to consistently stop pucks because that's the Flyers biggest issue right now.

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Old
05-05-2012, 04:30 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Schenn should headline a package for a top pairing defenseman, so if the Flyers enter next season with...

JVR - Giroux - Voracek
Hartnell - Briere - Read
Wellwood - Couturier - Simmonds
Talbot - X - Rinaldo

X- Timonen
Coburn - Grossman
Meszaros - Gus

The team should be pretty solid defensively. JVR, Simmonds and especially Briere will still be mediocre defensively, but a majority of this defensive talk swings on whether Bryz will figure out how to consistently stop pucks because that's the Flyers biggest issue right now.
I disagree with Bryzgalov being our biggest issue. IMO, it is as everyone else is pretty much saying the D in front of him. Could he be playing better? sure, but if the D could get the puck out of our zone, it would make it light years easier on him.

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05-05-2012, 04:32 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I completely agree.

Losing solid defensive forwards like Gagne, Carter, Richards, Powe, Versteeg, and Betts in the last two years with no attempt to replace what they bring to the table in the defensive zone wasn't very smart.

Building a defense around two 37 year old defenders that are more likely to get injured and/or experience a decline with no plan to replace them was risky at best. The problem is compounded when one of your depth defenseman is a complete bust (Walker), another was a poor signing (Lilja) and one of the deadline acquisitions you paid a steep price for (Kubina) is another complete bust.


If they are eliminated due to defensive woes the man who created this problem and failed to adequately address it should be held accountable.
The defense has been abysmal, but much of that came from the Pronger injury that no one could have predicted. It forced guys like Lilja to have to play above their heads, and it also forced them to overpay for a mediocre player in Kubina. At that point, they just needed healthy bodies back there, and they weren't getting a Suter/Weber type player at the deadline.

I'm really trying to figure out what you mean by not replacing defensively responsible forwards though. Gagne would have never been the same, as seen now. Betts got hurt and was replaced by Couturier anyway. Powe, eh he's dime a dozen and has been replaced by Wellwood who's better anyway. Versteeg was absolutely brutal defensively last year in the playoffs. Losing Richards and Carter was huge, but they did bring in guys like Talbot, Voracek, Couturier, and Read who are all above average to exceptional in their own zone.

So much of the defense comes down to system anyway. The league has turned into a transitional and defense first league. Lavi's system relies on uptempo constant attack which plays right into the hands of teams like the Rangers and Devils. They wait for you to come, create a turnover (which is bound to happen if you're going right at them all the time), and go the other way on an odd man rush. They'll either score or create a power play. You can't blame players for defensive shortcomings when their system stresses them playing on the attack at all times.

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05-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #81
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they can't do anything before game 4. game 4 is my only concern.

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05-05-2012, 04:38 PM
  #82
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Were only down 2-1 in the series, holy ****.

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05-05-2012, 04:38 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicBRYZ View Post
I disagree with Bryzgalov being our biggest issue. IMO, it is as everyone else is pretty much saying the D in front of him. Could he be playing better? sure, but if the D could get the puck out of our zone, it would make it light years easier on him.
Bryz was brought here to be a difference maker. So everyone just accepting that he's only as good as the defense is concerning to me because it means he's no better than Esche, Boucher, Nitty, Biron or any other goalie the Flyers had during the past decade, but now the goalie cap hit is double or triple of what the Flyers were paying before.

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05-05-2012, 04:41 PM
  #84
Bernie Parent 1974
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Originally Posted by Mgkibbles View Post
Bryz was brought here to be a difference maker.
and if we had the NJ series Bryz in 2010, we'd have won the CUP.

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05-05-2012, 04:46 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bernie Parent 1974 View Post
and if we had the NJ series Bryz in 2010, we'd have won the CUP.
All I can do is read this and shake my head in disbelief.

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05-05-2012, 04:48 PM
  #86
Clyde Donovan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I completely agree.

Losing solid defensive forwards like Gagne, Carter, Richards, Powe, Versteeg, and Betts in the last two years with no attempt to replace what they bring to the table in the defensive zone wasn't very smart.

Building a defense around two 37 year old defenders that are more likely to get injured and/or experience a decline with no plan to replace them was risky at best. The problem is compounded when one of your depth defenseman is a complete bust (Walker), another was a poor signing (Lilja) and one of the deadline acquisitions you paid a steep price for (Kubina) is another complete bust.


If they are eliminated due to defensive woes the man who created this problem and failed to adequately address it should be held accountable.
The Flyers gave up 7,3,5,5, goals in four games against the Bruins and got swept. 20 goals in four games, averaging 5 goals against a game in that series. Every player you mentioned was on the team besides Gagne. How exactly was that team better defensively?

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05-05-2012, 06:09 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clyde Donovan View Post
The Flyers gave up 7,3,5,5, goals in four games against the Bruins and got swept. 20 goals in four games, averaging 5 goals against a game in that series. Every player you mentioned was on the team besides Gagne. How exactly was that team better defensively?
2011 playoffs: 3.45 goals against
2012 playoffs: 4.11 goals against

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05-05-2012, 06:13 PM
  #88
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Last year with Pronger they werent very good defensively after new years. The same has carried ttue except for March. Something needs to change, and getting rid of Carle should be the start of it.

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Old
05-05-2012, 06:15 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
The defense has been abysmal, but much of that came from the Pronger injury that no one could have predicted. It forced guys like Lilja to have to play above their heads, and it also forced them to overpay for a mediocre player in Kubina. At that point, they just needed healthy bodies back there, and they weren't getting a Suter/Weber type player at the deadline.

I'm really trying to figure out what you mean by not replacing defensively responsible forwards though. Gagne would have never been the same, as seen now. Betts got hurt and was replaced by Couturier anyway. Powe, eh he's dime a dozen and has been replaced by Wellwood who's better anyway. Versteeg was absolutely brutal defensively last year in the playoffs. Losing Richards and Carter was huge, but they did bring in guys like Talbot, Voracek, Couturier, and Read who are all above average to exceptional in their own zone.

So much of the defense comes down to system anyway. The league has turned into a transitional and defense first league. Lavi's system relies on uptempo constant attack which plays right into the hands of teams like the Rangers and Devils. They wait for you to come, create a turnover (which is bound to happen if you're going right at them all the time), and go the other way on an odd man rush. They'll either score or create a power play. You can't blame players for defensive shortcomings when their system stresses them playing on the attack at all times.
I disagree about Pronger. He's 37 years old and had an injury filled season last year. It wasn't difficult to predict that he wouldn't be healthy for this year's playoffs. His injury was fluke, but there was a good possibility he wouldn't stay healthy.

Those guys are not above average to exceptional. Couturier is above average for a 19 year old, but he is far from Selke caliber. Most of those guys are getting out shot when they are on the ice.

They are playing the same system they have played the previous two years. The only thing that has changed is the personnel.

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05-05-2012, 06:28 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
2011 playoffs: 3.45 goals against
2012 playoffs: 4.11 goals against
I thought this year's playoffs weren't over yet.

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Old
05-05-2012, 07:35 PM
  #91
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Sure, lets just blow it all up and start over because the team has had a bad start to this series.

What if they come roaring back and win the Stanley Cup? Blow it still right, surely there is something not right?

Holy overreaction. This team dismantled the Pens and is having a bit of trouble with a much more defensive club. Did you honestly think they would maintain a 52% PP? They are having a hard time adjusting and aren't moving their feet to engage and win the battles.

But yea, lets just blow it up every year if they don't win the cup. That is clearly the most logical solution to everything. trade Briere? The guy with 107 points in 106 post season points? Hartnell, the guy who is having a lackluster series, but a career year? Couburn, the guy who has dominated physically along the boards all playoffs?

Give your head a shake. The only thing this team needs to do in the offseason is rid themselves of that piss ant Carle and add a stud on the back end. problem solved.

Now step off the ledge, everything will be okay.
This.

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05-05-2012, 07:38 PM
  #92
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why blow up a team that wasn't expected to win the cup anyway, let alone beat the pens in the first around?

the series isn't over and this team is known for coming back... let the series play out then go from there

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Old
05-05-2012, 08:05 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I disagree about Pronger. He's 37 years old and had an injury filled season last year. It wasn't difficult to predict that he wouldn't be healthy for this year's playoffs. His injury was fluke, but there was a good possibility he wouldn't stay healthy.

Those guys are not above average to exceptional. Couturier is above average for a 19 year old, but he is far from Selke caliber. Most of those guys are getting out shot when they are on the ice.

They are playing the same system they have played the previous two years. The only thing that has changed is the personnel.
Pronger has been pretty healthy over the course of his career. They had to take the chance that he was going stay healthy this year. What else were they supposed to do? They couldn't trade for anyone, and the free agency class was weak with defenders.

You can be above average defensively and still be far from Selke caliber. Getting out shot isn't always indicative of poor defensive play. I'll take ten crappy shots from outside over a couple of really good chances. If our goaltending wasn't atrocious this season (outside of March), our team wouldn't be considered so defensively inept. Those guys are more than capable of limiting chances, something they've done almost all season.

And it's the same result. Boston scored something like twenty goals in that series last season. But, everybody insists that we lost so much two way play with the Carter and Richards trades. The 2011 team allowed 2.63 goals a game that year, versus 2.74 this year. That's hardly enough to say this team sucks defensively.

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05-05-2012, 08:17 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
Pronger has been pretty healthy over the course of his career. They had to take the chance that he was going stay healthy this year. What else were they supposed to do? They couldn't trade for anyone, and the free agency class was weak with defenders.

You can be above average defensively and still be far from Selke caliber. Getting out shot isn't always indicative of poor defensive play. I'll take ten crappy shots from outside over a couple of really good chances. If our goaltending wasn't atrocious this season (outside of March), our team wouldn't be considered so defensively inept. Those guys are more than capable of limiting chances, something they've done almost all season.

And it's the same result. Boston scored something like twenty goals in that series last season. But, everybody insists that we lost so much two way play with the Carter and Richards trades. The 2011 team allowed 2.63 goals a game that year, versus 2.74 this year. That's hardly enough to say this team sucks defensively.
If you want a top echelon defenseman without overpaying for him, you have to draft them. When you don't draft or develop any defensemen of your own, it's going to be really hard to get a solid core without overpaying many of them.


Last edited by Go For It: 05-05-2012 at 08:51 PM. Reason: Forgot "don't".
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05-05-2012, 08:39 PM
  #95
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If you want a top echelon defenseman without overpaying for him, you have to draft them. When you draft or develop any defensemen of your own, it's going to be really hard to get a solid core without overpaying many of them.
You're right, I was talking about a more immediate impact though. Libertine was commenting on how the Flyers should have been more prepared for Pronger's injury.

Many top end dmen simple don't make it to free agency. Teams that draft them, pay them to keep them around because of their importance to the team. It's also why it won't be as easy to trade for one. Everybody here clamors about trading one of our young forwards for a young dman. You think the Flyers haven't thought about that? It seems that teams are unwilling to trade their future top pair guys unless it's for massive over-payment.

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Old
05-06-2012, 12:28 AM
  #96
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No, we don't.
Yes, we do.

We all know what kind of game wins in the Spring.

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05-06-2012, 12:30 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
If they are eliminated due to defensive woes the man who created this problem and failed to adequately address it should be held accountable.
I am with you. I just don't know if Holmgren will pull the proverbial trigger on Lavi, the fans seem to love him.

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05-06-2012, 12:32 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by flyershockey View Post
So much of the defense comes down to system anyway. The league has turned into a transitional and defense first league. Lavi's system relies on uptempo constant attack which plays right into the hands of teams like the Rangers and Devils. They wait for you to come, create a turnover (which is bound to happen if you're going right at them all the time), and go the other way on an odd man rush. They'll either score or create a power play. You can't blame players for defensive shortcomings when their system stresses them playing on the attack at all times.
+1,000,000

Great post.

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Old
05-06-2012, 01:51 AM
  #99
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This board is a joke. One day you have everyone planning the parade, and the next there are a-holes saying we should trade our young core.

If the team gets no further than this series, it was a successful year. They traded Richards and Carter and got farther than they did last year (having already won a game in round 2).

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05-06-2012, 02:10 AM
  #100
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I am with you. I just don't know if Holmgren will pull the proverbial trigger on Lavi, the fans seem to love him.
I don't think he was talking about Lavi.

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