HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Rink
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Rink For the not so ready for prime-time players, coaches, referees, and the people that have to live with them. Discuss experiences in local leagues, coaching tips, equipment, and training.

Abolition of the secondary assist?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-05-2012, 04:50 PM
  #1
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Abolition of the secondary assist?

Might be other threads about this but i'll start a new one and take the risk of being moved.

Was watching some hockey today and realized that a lot of the secondary assists awarded to players today actually dont have a lot to do with creating goalscoring chances, they're more like neutral zone dump-ins or whatever. So how about it, does the secondary assist contribute in more ways than padding stats?

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 05:01 PM
  #2
Ozz
Registered User
 
Ozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hockeytown
Country: United States
Posts: 6,730
vCash: 500
Without those dump-ins the goal may not have happened. One could start the argument that the goal would have been scored if a different play occurred without the dump in, but one could also argue that the other play may have been broken up. You could go around all day with it.

Ozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 05:14 PM
  #3
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Yeah i know, the factual part of the discussion could go on and on. But let's say this supersniper player shows and single-handedly scores 2 goals per game. Anyone who feeds the puck to the guy who feeds him the puck would get a total of 164 assist in a season. He might even be a goalie, just seems a little odd. Primary assists are a different thing to me

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 05:53 PM
  #4
mhkehoe
Registered User
 
mhkehoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 256
vCash: 500
People who don't play hockey themselves suggest removing secondary assist. I don't think you have a good understanding of the game if you think this is a good idea.

mhkehoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 06:46 PM
  #5
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhkehoe View Post
People who don't play hockey themselves suggest removing secondary assist. I don't think you have a good understanding of the game if you think this is a good idea.

Quite possible, would you care to explain to me why it should stay?

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 06:51 PM
  #6
Propane Nightmares
Sales & Marketing
 
Propane Nightmares's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 48,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
a lot of the secondary assists awarded to players today actually dont have a lot to do with creating goalscoring chances
Then on the other hand a lot of them do.

Sometimes I'm playing NHL 12 and I will single handedly create a scoring chance but two other guys touch the puck before the guy on my team scores and I get the "third assist" so to speak, and I think aw man I don't get a point? But that was all me!

Propane Nightmares is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 07:21 PM
  #7
Ozz
Registered User
 
Ozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hockeytown
Country: United States
Posts: 6,730
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
Yeah i know, the factual part of the discussion could go on and on. But let's say this supersniper player shows and single-handedly scores 2 goals per game. Anyone who feeds the puck to the guy who feeds him the puck would get a total of 164 assist in a season. He might even be a goalie, just seems a little odd. Primary assists are a different thing to me
The same could be said for primary assists too, though. Imagine a scenario where the secondary assist player stole the puck from an attacker, basically created all offense on his own, passed it to someone who gets a stick on it but otherwise doesn't control it, then the guy who ends up being the goal scorer shoots it in. That's just a scenario off the top of my head but this type of thing could happen all the time.

Sure you'll get a good portion of secondary assists that don't directly lead to a goal, but again that comes back to the argument of "what if he didn't feed it to the guy who made the primary assist?" The puck might never even reach the offensive zone without that seemingly-useless play.

Ozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 07:40 PM
  #8
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozz View Post
The same could be said for primary assists too, though. Imagine a scenario where the secondary assist player stole the puck from an attacker, basically created all offense on his own, passed it to someone who gets a stick on it but otherwise doesn't control it, then the guy who ends up being the goal scorer shoots it in. That's just a scenario off the top of my head but this type of thing could happen all the time.

Sure you'll get a good portion of secondary assists that don't directly lead to a goal, but again that comes back to the argument of "what if he didn't feed it to the guy who made the primary assist?" The puck might never even reach the offensive zone without that seemingly-useless play.
Yeah some secondary assists are definitely important and "relevant", but in my opinion less than say 50 percent are( not based on fact just on watching a lot and playing a bit).

A well placed hit or a great forecheck/backcheck could also be a contributing factor in a goal, aswell as a good goalie screen but there's no points awarded for that. I realize this is very theoretical but i guess that's why most of us are here, to talk about and discuss the game we love

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 07:55 PM
  #9
dwreckm
Registered User
 
dwreckm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Alaska
Country: United States
Posts: 75
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
A well placed hit or a great forecheck/backcheck could also be a contributing factor in a goal, aswell as a good goalie screen but there's no points awarded for that.
Actually, there kind of is, if you take into consideration the +/- stat. Players who are consistently creating an environment where there offense or defense can play effectively will have a good +/- stat.

As for the secondary assist, I like keeping it in, if only that it creates an environment where involving more team players gets more points spread around, and so defense and goalies can get on the points board more often.

dwreckm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 08:07 PM
  #10
CunniJA
Registered User
 
CunniJA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Estes Park, Colorado
Country: United States
Posts: 280
vCash: 500
No problem with the secondary assist at all. Allowing multiple assists runs through soccer and baseball as well and I think they've got it right. It's not like points are inflated these days anyway. In fact, quite the opposite.

CunniJA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 08:13 PM
  #11
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwreckm View Post
Actually, there kind of is, if you take into consideration the +/- stat. Players who are consistently creating an environment where there offense or defense can play effectively will have a good +/- stat.

As for the secondary assist, I like keeping it in, if only that it creates an environment where involving more team players gets more points spread around, and so defense and goalies can get on the points board more often.
Well yeah true about +/- but let's say you have two Gretzky's and two Bobby Orr's on a line with Charlie The plumber. Charlies stat's will look pretty damn good due to secondary assists and +/-. It just doesn't feel like an individual stat( yeah i know goalscoring is a team effort but you see my point?)

YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 08:24 PM
  #12
CunniJA
Registered User
 
CunniJA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Estes Park, Colorado
Country: United States
Posts: 280
vCash: 500
We could come up with examples of secondary assists that weren't really deserved all day if we wanted. We can certainly find pluses that weren't truly earned either. But, at the same time, we could find minuses that people didn't deserve or even a few "tertiary" assists that could have been deserved. No stat is completely individual anyway except for maybe performance in the shootout/penalties because any stat from GAA, +/-, or assists all the way to even shooting percentage or blocked shots has something to do with the other people around you (for or against you). So, we need some kind of standard and having touched the puck and gotten it to the goal scorer is a pretty decent standard.

CunniJA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 08:26 PM
  #13
JoeCool16
Registered User
 
JoeCool16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,851
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
Well yeah true about +/- but let's say you have two Gretzky's and two Bobby Orr's on a line with Charlie The plumber. Charlies stat's will look pretty damn good due to secondary assists and +/-. It just doesn't feel like an individual stat( yeah i know goalscoring is a team effort but you see my point?)
Submitted for your consideration, Dave Semenko.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4872

Played, at times, on a line with Jari Kurri and Wayne Gretzky. Kurri was one of the best players of the 80s and Gretzky was one of the greatest of all time. And yet Dave Semenko peaked out at 27 points. I don't think that the proverbial tag-a-long or Charlie the Plumber is going to get a free ride playing with the best.

JoeCool16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 08:27 PM
  #14
mhkehoe
Registered User
 
mhkehoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 256
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
Quite possible, would you care to explain to me why it should stay?
It gives credit to players that make the smart defensive or neutral zone plays leading to the goal. There is typical a lot more to the play than the goal and the pass that led to it, and having that additional point can give you hints in the box score of those contributing factors.

Hockey is rarely as simple as 1 player entering the zone, passing, and that player scoring. The player who did the work in the neutral zone and cleared the blue line played an important part in the creation of the scoring chance.

I think your worry is the player with the secondary didn't actually do much on the play, but it would be unreasonable for refs to determine the amount a player contributes to a play when assigning assists and more often than not it is a factor, so we lean towards assuming that secondary assist played a role in the goal.

mhkehoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 09:23 PM
  #15
YippieKaey
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 62
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhkehoe View Post
It gives credit to players that make the smart defensive or neutral zone plays leading to the goal. There is typical a lot more to the play than the goal and the pass that led to it, and having that additional point can give you hints in the box score of those contributing factors.

Hockey is rarely as simple as 1 player entering the zone, passing, and that player scoring. The player who did the work in the neutral zone and cleared the blue line played an important part in the creation of the scoring chance.

I think your worry is the player with the secondary didn't actually do much on the play, but it would be unreasonable for refs to determine the amount a player contributes to a play when assigning assists and more often than not it is a factor, so we lean towards assuming that secondary assist played a role in the goal.
You are correct about my "worry" and i also agree about the ref part, impossible for them to decide. BUT: Someone pointed out that the +/- stat reflect on some of the same things that the secondary assist does, so why not just settle for that stat?

Reread your post, i do believe you're right and i concede. It should stay,i'll have to learn to live with the statistical inaccuracies that might occur


Last edited by YippieKaey: 05-05-2012 at 09:34 PM.
YippieKaey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-05-2012, 10:39 PM
  #16
Wilch
Unregistered User
 
Wilch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Under your bed
Country: Taiwan
Posts: 9,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by YippieKaey View Post
Well yeah true about +/- but let's say you have two Gretzky's and two Bobby Orr's on a line with Charlie The plumber. Charlies stat's will look pretty damn good due to secondary assists and +/-. It just doesn't feel like an individual stat( yeah i know goalscoring is a team effort but you see my point?)
I played on a line with players a million time better than me, and I find it's hard to keep up with what they're doing at times. They'll throw some crazy passes that's tough to catch, and are too fast to catch up to. I do get more chances with them, the occasional tap-ins, open slot shots, etc. But playing with them won't boost my stats -that- significantly. I'd say over the course of a 30 game season, playing with those guys I'd get an extra 5-6 points at most.

Wilch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.