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Offseason Discussion Part III (Contract/FA chart in post #1)

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Old
05-05-2012, 11:09 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Staal for Kipper and John Gaudreau
MAF and Martin for Patrick Sharp and Mike Frolik
Kiprusoff is not an improvement over Fleury in this the twilight of his career. No thanks. Fleury's troubles the last few years can be entirely traced to a lack of faith in his defensemen to protect him. Fix the defense and you fix Fleury. Trading him is an overreaction.

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05-05-2012, 11:17 AM
  #152
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Kiprusoff is not an improvement over Fleury in this the twilight of his career. No thanks. Fleury's troubles the last few years can be entirely traced to a lack of faith in his defensemen to protect him. Fix the defense and you fix Fleury. Trading him is an overreaction.
No matter how much a defense might struggle, it's no excuse for a goalie to be whiffing on weak wristers and knocking pucks into his own net. Not at all.

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05-05-2012, 11:19 AM
  #153
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Kiprusoff is not an improvement over Fleury in this the twilight of his career. No thanks. Fleury's troubles the last few years can be entirely traced to a lack of faith in his defensemen to protect him. Fix the defense and you fix Fleury. Trading him is an overreaction.
This sounds like those who think Ty Conklin would make a good backup to Fleury despite being finished as an NHL goaltender. As far as fixing the D to fix Fleury is something that is needed to be done the only problem is who is going to do it?

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05-05-2012, 01:29 PM
  #154
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No matter how much a defense might struggle, it's no excuse for a goalie to be whiffing on weak wristers and knocking pucks into his own net. Not at all.
Let in a few goals due to bad d-zone coverage and see where your confidence sits at. Like I said, "can be traced".

Fleury is a good goaltender, I struggle to name 5 who are better than he is. He has always been a bend but don't break goaltender and that makes him statistically poor but it can't be argued that he is capable of winning games. You can't make a trade involving Fleury that makes this team better in the short or longterm because the defense is the problem.

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05-05-2012, 02:13 PM
  #155
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Let in a few goals due to bad d-zone coverage and see where your confidence sits at. Like I said, "can be traced".

Fleury is a good goaltender, I struggle to name 5 who are better than he is. He has always been a bend but don't break goaltender and that makes him statistically poor but it can't be argued that he is capable of winning games. You can't make a trade involving Fleury that makes this team better in the short or longterm because the defense is the problem.
No he broke. He is just as responsible as the defense on this one.

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05-05-2012, 02:36 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by nimos View Post
Let in a few goals due to bad d-zone coverage and see where your confidence sits at. Like I said, "can be traced".

Fleury is a good goaltender, I struggle to name 5 who are better than he is. He has always been a bend but don't break goaltender and that makes him statistically poor but it can't be argued that he is capable of winning games. You can't make a trade involving Fleury that makes this team better in the short or longterm because the defense is the problem.
Easily better than Fleury:
Price
Ward
Thomas
Lundqvist
Quick
Rinne
Kiprusoff

Not going to get into an internet fight over it, but let's just say on the same level:
Smith
Elliott
Halek
Brodeur
Luongo
Anderson
Schneider
Bryzgalov
Miller

This is just off the top of my head.

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05-05-2012, 03:47 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Easily better than Fleury:
Price
Ward
Thomas
Lundqvist
Quick
Rinne
Kiprusoff

Not going to get into an internet fight over it, but let's just say on the same level:
Smith
Elliott
Halek
Brodeur
Luongo
Anderson
Schneider
Bryzgalov
Miller

This is just off the top of my head.
I think Luongo and Miller are also better than Fleury, all else being equal. Buffalo has had a weak D many years and I believe Miller would've won one by now if he'd played behind a better D squad. Luongo is just a better goalie despite his bad press / fans getting on him. Smith is a "maybe better"; let's wait and see on him.

Schneider remains to be seen so I'd drop him out of the list along with Elliot and Halak, who are question marks / only succeed in very defensive systems (it seems). If we had STL's D this playoff we'd still be playing most likely.

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05-05-2012, 03:47 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sideline View Post
Easily better than Fleury:
Price
Ward
Thomas
Lundqvist
Quick
Rinne
Kiprusoff

Not going to get into an internet fight over it, but let's just say on the same level:
Smith
Elliott
Halek
Brodeur
Luongo
Anderson
Schneider
Bryzgalov
Miller

This is just off the top of my head.
Easily "better" (more consistent, more reliable in important situations, etc):

Lundqvist
Quick
Rinne
Smith
Ward
Halak

On the same level, arguably "better":

Lehtonen
Howard
Elliott
Luongo
Bryzgalov
Miller
Backstrom
Kiprusoff

I hesitate to say "better," because it's such a subjective word. Nobody in the league can match MAF's athleticism, but his inconsistencies and seemingly inability to get over that psychological frailty that's plagued him for his entire career absolutely kill him. I can't really defend his play any more. He was the best goalie in the league for a good 25 game stretch this season, bar none, but his inconsistencies again caught up and he fell apart at the wrong time. If it's a question of whether I'd rather have that kind of goalie--one that can be the clear-cut best player in the world at his position at any given time--or a goalie that's damn good, but not phenomenal, all the time. I'd go with the second one, eight days a week.

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05-05-2012, 03:54 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by nimos View Post
Let in a few goals due to bad d-zone coverage and see where your confidence sits at. Like I said, "can be traced".

Fleury is a good goaltender, I struggle to name 5 who are better than he is. He has always been a bend but don't break goaltender and that makes him statistically poor but it can't be argued that he is capable of winning games. You can't make a trade involving Fleury that makes this team better in the short or longterm because the defense is the problem.
I mostly agree. I do think the big workload and the 1980's hockey down the stretch took a toll on him mentally. You start seeing that amount of scoring chances against and inevitably a lot pucks start flying in your net, then you start pressing and then that doesn't work and your confidence is shaken and you start looking like a deer in the headlights out there...

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05-05-2012, 04:02 PM
  #160
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Why do the Pens need Parise? Offense isn't an issue, it's keeping pucks out of their own net.
Is it a sin to want Sid/Geno surrounded with a bit more talent, especially if Staal leaves?

If the 3C model is abandoned, I want a proper top 6. Sid should never have to face a top D pairing with Duper and Sully on his wings.

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05-05-2012, 04:21 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by nimos View Post
Kiprusoff is not an improvement over Fleury in this the twilight of his career. No thanks. Fleury's troubles the last few years can be entirely traced to a lack of faith in his defensemen to protect him. Fix the defense and you fix Fleury. Trading him is an overreaction.
Jakes right. MAF has his problems too. I would blame the D for the goalie getting beat back door but how many times to we have to see MAF get a peice of the puck and still see it go in. OK what about...

Staal for Elliot and Tarasenko
MAF and Martin for Marleau and Burns
Zib for Sutter

Kunitz-Crosby-Marleau
Tarasenko-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Adams-Vitale-Parros

Orpik-Letang
Burns-Despres
Engo-Nisk

Elliot
Mason

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05-05-2012, 04:29 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Coach John McGuirk View Post
Easily "better" (more consistent, more reliable in important situations, etc):

Lundqvist
Quick
Rinne
Smith
Ward
Halak

On the same level, arguably "better":

Lehtonen
Howard
Elliott
Luongo
Bryzgalov
Miller
Backstrom
Kiprusoff

I hesitate to say "better," because it's such a subjective word. Nobody in the league can match MAF's athleticism, but his inconsistencies and seemingly inability to get over that psychological frailty that's plagued him for his entire career absolutely kill him. I can't really defend his play any more. He was the best goalie in the league for a good 25 game stretch this season, bar none, but his inconsistencies again caught up and he fell apart at the wrong time. If it's a question of whether I'd rather have that kind of goalie--one that can be the clear-cut best player in the world at his position at any given time--or a goalie that's damn good, but not phenomenal, all the time. I'd go with the second one, eight days a week.

if you remove Fleury's first 2 years where he was playing as a 19/21 year old in front of 2 god awful teams, his save% is .912 with a 2.55 GAA. That being said

Mike Smith- 1 good season so far, give me a break. Have him do it 2 more times, then you're right.

Cam Ward- might be the most overrated goalie on HF. Worse career numbers than fleury and people constantly claim fleury's career numbers are awful

Jaroslav Halak- Has played over 50 games in a season once. In that year he had a .910 save% and 2.48 GAA. Sounds pretty similar to Fleury.

Brian Elliot- 2 season where he's played 50 games, in those two seasons he had a .891 save%.



Moral of the Story, if you want Fleury to be like Elliot and Halak, let him only play half the games in a season. Thats what they did and you think theyre amazing. In the season that Fleury played a similar number of games to Elliot and Halak, he put up a .921 save%. Mike Smith is still up in the air, obviously he had an amazing season but there have been endless goalies who come in and have one great season than return to normalcy.

If you want Fleury to put up .920+ save percentages then get him a goalie to split time with. You clearly just pulled those names out of your butt.

Here are the goalies who are better than Fleury:
Rinne
Lundqvist
Quick
Luongo

everyone else is on par or worse. But hey, don't let the numbers get in the way of your beliefs.

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Old
05-05-2012, 04:31 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by #66 View Post
Jakes right. MAF has his problems too. I would blame the D for the goalie getting beat back door but how many times to we have to see MAF get a peice of the puck and still see it go in. OK what about...

Staal for Elliot and Tarasenko
MAF and Martin for Marleau and Burns
Zib for Sutter

Kunitz-Crosby-Marleau
Tarasenko-Malkin-Neal
Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis
Adams-Vitale-Parros

Orpik-Letang
Burns-Despres
Engo-Nisk

Elliot
Mason
Trade a Staal for a goalie who is also struggling in the playoffs even with a great defense in front of him & 20 year who hasn't proven anything yet. That's horrible.

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05-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #164
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I'll never say never after the Marian Hossa trade but Parise seems like the kind of player a GM would be willing to clear some space for in order to keep him long term. Marty's 5M might be coming off the books this summer if he retires... if the cap goes up a bit / the CBA gets done, I could see Parise getting his long-term deal to lower the hit.

Thinking about what Shero would have to trade to get his rights (and then possibly have him walk) isn't all that appealing to me. Maybe Lou will take Martin back in return for Parise's rights. Talk about a pipe dream. Or, he could wait until FA but...

...it's about 100:1 Shero makes a big move on the offensive side of the equation when our D and G were so lousy the last month of the season / post-season. I think it's more likely any big addition will be on defense and/or in goal, while he'll plan on putting Dupuis back with Crosby, leaving Neal with Geno and signing typical drifter forwards like he always does during the summer. We had no problems at all scoring goals so I don't think that will be his focus.
I got the impression that Parise didn't want to be in NJ anymore.

Not sure how I got that impression, but it seems to be the sentiment.

But getting Parise for nothing and trading Staal for Gudbranson would be wonderful.


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05-05-2012, 04:37 PM
  #165
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If the 3C model is abandoned, I want a proper top 6. Sid should never have to face a top D pairing with Duper and Sully on his wings.
That's a valid point but the real question is, better to get two "pretty good" players (one D, one W) for Staal, or one outstanding D (a guy we'd sign long-term) and prospect / third line type? I think Sid will be OK with Dupuis and a decent FA on his wing. He can still score 50 with that.

FA - Sid - Dupuis
Kunitz - Geno - Neal
Trade - Vitale - Tangradi

Letang
Stud from trade
Despres
Michalek
Engo
Orpik / Strait / Bortuzzo / Morrow

might be better than getting an OK W and an OK D...

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05-05-2012, 04:42 PM
  #166
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Kiprusoff is not an improvement over Fleury in this the twilight of his career. No thanks. Fleury's troubles the last few years can be entirely traced to a lack of faith in his defensemen to protect him. Fix the defense and you fix Fleury. Trading him is an overreaction.
I wish I had people who would follow me around all day and make excuses for my **** ups.

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05-05-2012, 04:45 PM
  #167
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if you remove Fleury's first 2 years where he was playing as a 19/21 year old in front of 2 god awful teams, his save% is .912 with a 2.55 GAA. That being said

Mike Smith- 1 good season so far, give me a break. Have him do it 2 more times, then you're right.

Cam Ward- might be the most overrated goalie on HF. Worse career numbers than fleury and people constantly claim fleury's career numbers are awful

Jaroslav Halak- Has played over 50 games in a season once. In that year he had a .910 save% and 2.48 GAA. Sounds pretty similar to Fleury.

Brian Elliot- 2 season where he's played 50 games, in those two seasons he had a .891 save%.



Moral of the Story, if you want Fleury to be like Elliot and Halak, let him only play half the games in a season. Thats what they did and you think theyre amazing. In the season that Fleury played a similar number of games to Elliot and Halak, he put up a .921 save%. Mike Smith is still up in the air, obviously he had an amazing season but there have been endless goalies who come in and have one great season than return to normalcy.

If you want Fleury to put up .920+ save percentages then get him a goalie to split time with. You clearly just pulled those names out of your butt.

Here are the goalies who are better than Fleury:
Rinne
Lundqvist
Quick
Luongo

everyone else is on par or worse. But hey, don't let the numbers get in the way of your beliefs.
How's this.

MAF isn't an elite goalie. He's a decent goalie in a league full of decent goalies.

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05-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by zhenya71 View Post
I wish I had people who would follow me around all day and make excuses for my **** ups.
It truly is amazing.

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05-05-2012, 05:06 PM
  #169
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How's this.

MAF isn't an elite goalie. He's a decent goalie in a league full of decent goalies.
um yeah, thats fine. Want an elite goaltender? Trade Malkin to get one.

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05-05-2012, 05:09 PM
  #170
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um yeah, thats fine. Want an elite goaltender? Trade Malkin to get one.
We're trading him for wingers.

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05-05-2012, 05:13 PM
  #171
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um yeah, thats fine. Want an elite goaltender? Trade Malkin to get one.
Elite would be nice, and no I wouldn't make that trade.

All I ask is for the MAF Legion to finally acknowledge he's just another run-of-the-mill goalie.

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05-05-2012, 05:14 PM
  #172
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We're trading him for wingers.
You STILL don't get it.

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05-05-2012, 05:19 PM
  #173
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Elite would be nice, and no I wouldn't make that trade.

All I ask is for the MAF Legion to finally acknowledge he's just another run-of-the-mill goalie.
to what end?

oh and brian elliot? you mean the guy who in his only seasons playing 50 plus games had a .891 save%?

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05-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #174
Coach John McGuirk
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Is it a sin to want Sid/Geno surrounded with a bit more talent, especially if Staal leaves?

If the 3C model is abandoned, I want a proper top 6. Sid should never have to face a top D pairing with Duper and Sully on his wings.
It's not a sin, but at the same time it's not what is going to win us the Cup. If Shero is going to make huge moves this summer, and I doubt he will so this is all conjecture, he NEEDS to get Suter or Weber. This team's offense is top-notch. It's the defense that needs help.

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Eric Tangradi ($0.850m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Matt Cooke ($1.800m) / Jarret Stoll ($3.750m) / Tyler Kennedy ($2.000m)
Dustin Jeffrey ($0.575m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Pascal Dupuis ($1.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan Suter ($7.000m) / Kris Letang ($3.500m)
Zbynek Michalek ($4.000m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.000m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Josh Harding ($1.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,066,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $933,333

Jettison Martin for cap reasons.

Trade Staal and a 2nd to ANA for Ryan.

Sign Suter, Harding, and Stoll.

Promote Tangradi to Malkin's wing full time. No turning back, time to see what we have in this kid.

There. Now the defense is stacked, and Sid and Geno both have wingers. Everyone's happy in McGuirk's Fantasy Land!

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05-05-2012, 05:45 PM
  #175
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I don't see Josh Harding signing here to be Fleury's backup.

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