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Old
05-05-2012, 05:54 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiralyPred View Post
These players need a coach. This is not college football. They don't need a father figure, telling them whats right and wrong. These are grown men.
Trotz and Poile enforced rules. Rules are a basis of society. Grown men realize that breaking rules has repercussions ... just what AK and Radulov experienced.

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05-05-2012, 06:04 PM
  #102
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Had we won last night, people would be applauding Trotz for sticking to his guns, and urging him to keep the same lineup for the next game too.

And to get that victory wouldn't have taken any major coaching miracle - just Hornqvist (and others) hitting the net a couple of times.

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05-05-2012, 06:05 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
Tippett
Tortorella
Hitchcock
Dineen
Hunter
I wasn't advocating any of these in particular as upgrades over Trotz, just using recent coaching changes of guys who were unknown or unwanted who are having success. People always want to know who you replace the guy with, and it's just not that easy for us to say. Toe Blake isn't walking through Poile's door, even a guy like Babcock, if he were available to the Preds that means he really started stinking in Detroit and then do we want him? Every coach starts as an unkown, if Poile is really as amazing as everyone says he would find a great replacement, even if it's someone who isn't on the radar of even the most hardcore fans.

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05-05-2012, 06:15 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wadesworld View Post
Had we won last night, people would be applauding Trotz for sticking to his guns, and urging him to keep the same lineup for the next game too.

And to get that victory wouldn't have taken any major coaching miracle - just Hornqvist (and others) hitting the net a couple of times.
Not true at all. It doesn't make any sense to pull your 2 most valuable offensive players. Like what others have said. If this was Pekka and Anders. They would not have sat out either game. Tell me I'm wrong.

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05-05-2012, 06:36 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by KiralyPred View Post
Not true at all. It doesn't make any sense to pull your 2 most valuable offensive players. Like what others have said. If this was Pekka and Anders. They would not have sat out either game. Tell me I'm wrong.
They apparently acted like adults, so we'll never know. Calling Radulov one of our "most valuable offensive players" is a stretch this series. AK was a +1, 2 SOG, 1g in game two .... and sat for his indiscretions.

I still applaud the team for having the fortitude to enforce their rules even during the playoffs. These are grown men and can do whatever they want ... but certain choices come with punishments. Just like here ... we can rant away with profanity laced tirades, but, there is a reaction by the moderation team. Action, reaction.

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05-05-2012, 06:41 PM
  #106
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so what happens if we come back from 3-1? does he still need to be fired?

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05-05-2012, 06:42 PM
  #107
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so what happens if we come back from 3-1? does he still need to be fired?
Twice. Then flogged. Then forced to watch Beaches. Then fired again.

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05-05-2012, 06:51 PM
  #108
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To me, we're getting beat by a hot goalie and an NBA-style enforcement of the rules. If all of the clutching and grabbing that PHX is getting away with was called plus the three waived goals, this would be a vastly different series. I see a win in Game 5 with a tightly called game that benefits us and an extra gate for us in Game 6 as a reward till golf dates need to be set. NBC will get the start times it needs to program all of the games on the main network and the NHL and NBC gets an LA/NY match-up that gets huge ratings and ad revenue. Sorry but I just see through too many things to think we really have a chance. No way that Trotz/Poile are to blame for that as we are a small fish in a big-arse pond. Hope I'm wrong; but I'll still be back in the fall as my tickets are paid for and I love my time out away from the family to be a guy and have an outlet. One day my team will win the Cup... I hope.

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05-05-2012, 07:00 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Crymson View Post
Barry Trotz has consistently done a great job with very limited resources. Why should he be fired?
Because he's working with more than 'very limited resources' and is still stagnant?


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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Twice. Then flogged. Then forced to watch Beaches. Then fired again.
C'mon. I don't want to torture his soul. I just want him to go coach Columbus from garbage to 'pretty good, but not good enough' and then stagnate interminably, over there.

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05-05-2012, 07:05 PM
  #110
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I don't really see many instances in this series where Trotz is getting outcoached. Bottom line is that Phoenix is executing better than we are. If Horny gets 3 or 4 more shots actually on target, or Wilson gets a few more off on time, maybe they also take ridiculous knuckling bounces and game 4 goes to OT. In a series where we're down 3 games to 1, we've scored a whopping two goals less. No margin for error for the players in this series, and we've made just a few more mistakes, and had a few less lucky breaks, than they have.

I don't think there would be as much outrage if it wasn't the Coyotes that were beating us. There was a faulty perception that they were a vastly inferior team, and that we should have been able to roll right through them. Anybody that had watched them play through the season and the first round should have known better. I doubt there'd be this much angst were it Detroit, Chicago or even Los Angeles that was beating us right now.

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05-05-2012, 09:15 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiralyPred View Post
Not true at all. It doesn't make any sense to pull your 2 most valuable offensive players. Like what others have said. If this was Pekka and Anders. They would not have sat out either game. Tell me I'm wrong.
As I mentioned on the main board, Rads and AK being late acquisitions made it an easy call to sit them an extra game. Had it been one of the guys that has been here all season, the result would've been different, like it or not.

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05-05-2012, 09:18 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
@bourquex3

honest question.. when do you say enough is enough? one and done next year or not making playoffs? there comes to a point where you can't just accept being good. we have/had the roster(s) to make some runs. 2 series wins and alot of one and dones. im a trotz supporter (most of the time) but im to the point where enough is enough.
Ask all the other teams who have never won a Cup or been to a Final. I'm sure one of the stat heads around here has numbers on how many teams have gone YEARS without seeing a Final or even a second round. Hell, some teams have never seen it!

Going far in the playoffs is hard. That's why so many teams can't do it. Trotz is a boss; I guarantee if we were to fire him (which we won't) another team would snap him up so fast it would be ridiculous. Then he'd probably up and win the Cup that year. He's a great coach and a great person. I like having him here. And I think GMDP and the owners do too.

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05-05-2012, 10:05 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by canadianpredsfan97 View Post
Considering what the other expansion teams have done in their existance and the fact that we have made the playoffs all but one season since the lockout, I'm willing to cut Trotz a little slack.
Making the playoffs, always good enough for Nashville fans.


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Originally Posted by gopreds9 View Post
This is also worth saying: If we fired Trotz, what better coach is out there to replace him? I'd love to here some of the torch-and-pitchfork people right now name a coach better than trotz who is unemployed right now.

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Originally Posted by gopreds9 View Post
I'm still going to defend Trotz on this one, but I'll give it this much: let's hold onto him and if someone gets fired that we think is better, then we move him. No need yet.

Why do we have to hire some retread? You think Trotz is so great, but was he a retread? There are plenty of young, hungry coaches with fire in their bellies who would kill to coach the Preds. Do I know names? No. Just like I don't know who would be a good pick at our number 58 spot. But they're out there.

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05-05-2012, 10:12 PM
  #114
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not saying trotz should be fired.. still on the fence. but what about lambert? whats yalls opinion on him possibly being an NHL coach

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05-05-2012, 10:16 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by gopreds19 View Post
Making the playoffs, always good enough for Nashville fans.
More or less, yes. Because making the playoffs means you have the possibility of winning the Stanley Cup.

Missing the playoffs...well...means you can't.

There isn't a coach out there that has a formula that gets their team to the 3rd round (or beyond) on a consistent basis. A lot of it has to do with who we draw. That was one of the reasons I wanted to face Chicago, rather than Phoenix.

First it was "we just can't make the playoffs"...then it was "we just can't win a playoff series"....then it was "we just can't beat the Wings in the playoffs"....now it's "we just can't make it past the second round"? Honestly...will the tune even change if we come back and win the series, but lose in the WCF? I swear, for some of you, it would be "well, that was a lucky series in the second round, BUT TROTZ CAN'T WIN IT ALL!!!"

Some people act like that with the team we have, we should be gifted the Cup. There is not an unworthy team among the remaining 8. Whoever wins it will have to ****ing earn it.

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05-05-2012, 10:21 PM
  #116
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Trotz could go 97-1-0 in a season and there would be somebody saying he should be fired.

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05-05-2012, 10:22 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
not saying trotz should be fired.. still on the fence. but what about lambert? whats yalls opinion on him possibly being an NHL coach
Tough to say...but I like him so far. I think he has what it takes. I like what he's done with the PP. But we'll see what he does in the coming years. I wouldn't think he's ready just yet...though some teams seem to be reaching for straight-from-the-minors coaching.

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05-05-2012, 11:02 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by 101st_fan View Post
Trotz could go 97-1-0 in a season and there would be somebody saying he should be fired.
The ultimate goal is still SC championship.

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05-05-2012, 11:42 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by KiralyPred View Post
The ultimate goal is still SC championship.
Goals take time if they are ever achieved. Every team starts the season with that goal ... 1 of 30 reaches it. That's an over 96% failure rate every season. Step one is to make the post season. Step two is to then make a run. Runs take luck. The #1 team in the West is out. The #2 team in the West is down 3-0. Defecation occurs sometimes.

To go 97-1-0 requires one loss in the regular season and a sweep of the post season ... and I'd bet that somebody would still find reason to call for Trotz's firing if he pulled off such a feat.

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05-05-2012, 11:44 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by KiralyPred View Post
The ultimate goal is still SC championship.
That applies to the other 29 teams as well.

Believe me...no one here DOESN'T want to win the Cup.

The Preds have a very good team this year (and they're not out yet, btw)...but every team remaining is also a very good team. That's the nature of the playoffs. Think about some of the talented teams -- Vancouver, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago -- that didn't even make the second round. The playoffs aren't easy.

Losing in the playoffs, especially the second round and beyond -- isn't reason alone to fire your coach. Sometimes a team isn't a good matchup for you due to the way the team plays. That doesn't necessarily mean the coach failed. I think Chicago would've been a more favorable matchup for us...but obviously we can't help which teams advance and which ones don't. We just have to roll with whatever hand we are dealt.

I get the feeling that some of our fans underestimate just how difficult it is to win the Stanley Cup. Otherwise, LA, St. Louis, and Vancouver would've won by now...and Toronto would have multiple Stanley Cups since the 60s.

Honestly...who are we to complain? I'm not saying we should settle for mediocrity...but that's not what we have been doing. Ever since the lockout, we've been in the mix. We've gotten some tough draws and have lost. Two out of six times, it has been to the eventual Cup champs.

With 30 teams, there have to be 29 losers. Based on that statistic alone, if all teams started evenly, there is less than a 4% chance of winning it all. Making the playoffs improves that to a mere 6.25% chance. Second round makes that a 12.5% chance. If winning it all is the ONLY thing that matters to a franchise, they are likely to be disappointed in this day and age.

These aren't the days where there are only 6 teams in the league. If we were one of 6, then yes, I would be pissed that we hadn't won the Cup by now. But that's not the case.

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05-05-2012, 11:54 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
That applies to the other 29 teams as well.

Believe me...no one here DOESN'T want to win the Cup.

The Preds have a very good team this year (and they're not out yet, btw)...but every team remaining is also a very good team. That's the nature of the playoffs. Think about some of the talented teams -- Vancouver, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago -- that didn't even make the second round. The playoffs aren't easy.

Losing in the playoffs, especially the second round and beyond -- isn't reason alone to fire your coach. Sometimes a team isn't a good matchup for you due to the way the team plays. That doesn't necessarily mean the coach failed. I think Chicago would've been a more favorable matchup for us...but obviously we can't help which teams advance and which ones don't. We just have to roll with whatever hand we are dealt.

I get the feeling that some of our fans underestimate just how difficult it is to win the Stanley Cup. Otherwise, LA, St. Louis, and Vancouver would've won by now...and Toronto would have multiple Stanley Cups since the 60s.

Honestly...who are we to complain? I'm not saying we should settle for mediocrity...but that's not what we have been doing. Ever since the lockout, we've been in the mix. We've gotten some tough draws and have lost. Two out of six times, it has been to the eventual Cup champs.

With 30 teams, there have to be 29 losers. Based on that statistic alone, if all teams started evenly, there is less than a 4% chance of winning it all. Making the playoffs improves that to a mere 6.25% chance. Second round makes that a 12.5% chance. If winning it all is the ONLY thing that matters to a franchise, they are likely to be disappointed in this day and age.

These aren't the days where there are only 6 teams in the league. If we were one of 6, then yes, I would be pissed that we hadn't won the Cup by now. But that's not the case.
i wish more of my fellow wings fans on this baord had this same attitude. There would sure be a lot less negativity going around lol

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05-06-2012, 12:10 AM
  #122
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Good post. It's easy to forget a lot of that stuff. If we get eliminated, we are in good company. Not everyone can win and not everyone does.

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Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
That applies to the other 29 teams as well.

Believe me...no one here DOESN'T want to win the Cup.

The Preds have a very good team this year (and they're not out yet, btw)...but every team remaining is also a very good team. That's the nature of the playoffs. Think about some of the talented teams -- Vancouver, Boston, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Chicago -- that didn't even make the second round. The playoffs aren't easy.

Losing in the playoffs, especially the second round and beyond -- isn't reason alone to fire your coach. Sometimes a team isn't a good matchup for you due to the way the team plays. That doesn't necessarily mean the coach failed. I think Chicago would've been a more favorable matchup for us...but obviously we can't help which teams advance and which ones don't. We just have to roll with whatever hand we are dealt.

I get the feeling that some of our fans underestimate just how difficult it is to win the Stanley Cup. Otherwise, LA, St. Louis, and Vancouver would've won by now...and Toronto would have multiple Stanley Cups since the 60s.

Honestly...who are we to complain? I'm not saying we should settle for mediocrity...but that's not what we have been doing. Ever since the lockout, we've been in the mix. We've gotten some tough draws and have lost. Two out of six times, it has been to the eventual Cup champs.

With 30 teams, there have to be 29 losers. Based on that statistic alone, if all teams started evenly, there is less than a 4% chance of winning it all. Making the playoffs improves that to a mere 6.25% chance. Second round makes that a 12.5% chance. If winning it all is the ONLY thing that matters to a franchise, they are likely to be disappointed in this day and age.

These aren't the days where there are only 6 teams in the league. If we were one of 6, then yes, I would be pissed that we hadn't won the Cup by now. But that's not the case.

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05-06-2012, 07:18 AM
  #123
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I think people are mixing up firing Trotz with the decision to sit AK and Rads. It has nothing to do with that for me. Do I think he gets the max out of his best players, not at all. Weber and Suter have played on the world stage and were shining stars for the Canadian and US Olympic teams. They are paired together in this series against good players from Phoenix yet they don't shine out there. Where are the thunderous hits from Weber? Those sorts of things change momentum in games and in series. I'm sorry but I am not seeing the fire in Weber. To be perfectly honest, if I'm Trotz or anyone else in that locker room, I'm ticking off Weber because even though he'll take a bad penalty here and there when he's mad, he plays with more of an edge and attitude when he's pissed off. He's a gentleman out there right now and it's playoff hockey. It's time to put down the purse and tea cup and start playing playoff hockey.

I have felt for years that Trotz gets great mileage out of average to good players but when he has top end talent, he doesn't know what to do with it. He's never been able to get the most out of Legwand on a consistent basis. Hartnell was in his doghouse early and often. Erat is probably the rare exception but even he's never even put up the big numbers. Rads has to play Barry's game to get on the ice as opposed to Barry playing to Rads' strengths. Same thing with Wilson. And a lot of you will be like we gave him a chance and he never did anything but Peverly had skills and obviously Boston thought so too and he's been a fixture in their top 6 for a while now and producing good numbers.

I just don't see that he puts guys in a position to succeed with the skill sets they have and the system he uses. He wants all the guys to play his system and while that's fine and dandy, you have to let guys play their games too. That's why they were drafted right, because of their skill sets? Not everyone is going to be a great two way player but if they excel offensively, does that mean they should sit because they aren't perfect defensively? Compensate that line with other good two way players to balance the lines out.

And the argument of who do we replace him with is a tired one. Trotz never coached a game in the NHL and everyone loves him so there are guys with little or no experience in the NHL that would do the job just fine. Remember, everyone had to coach their first NHL game at some point. Sometimes change is good, sometimes it's bad but to say, who do we replace him with is chicken ***** to me because to be best, you have to take chances sometimes. You have to step out of the norm and go with a calculated risk. We took a chance by going "all in" this season and we're one game from elimination because of a coach who has the inability to change on the fly. He made great decisions against Detroit and has done nothing to slow down or figure out how to put a chink in the armor of a Coyote team.

And while I haven't given up on the season since I still believe in this group of players, if it doesn't get done, a change is warranted and needs to be discussed.

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05-06-2012, 07:58 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I think people are mixing up firing Trotz with the decision to sit AK and Rads. It has nothing to do with that for me. Do I think he gets the max out of his best players, not at all. Weber and Suter have played on the world stage and were shining stars for the Canadian and US Olympic teams. They are paired together in this series against good players from Phoenix yet they don't shine out there. Where are the thunderous hits from Weber? Those sorts of things change momentum in games and in series. I'm sorry but I am not seeing the fire in Weber. To be perfectly honest, if I'm Trotz or anyone else in that locker room, I'm ticking off Weber because even though he'll take a bad penalty here and there when he's mad, he plays with more of an edge and attitude when he's pissed off. He's a gentleman out there right now and it's playoff hockey. It's time to put down the purse and tea cup and start playing playoff hockey.

I have felt for years that Trotz gets great mileage out of average to good players but when he has top end talent, he doesn't know what to do with it. He's never been able to get the most out of Legwand on a consistent basis. Hartnell was in his doghouse early and often. Erat is probably the rare exception but even he's never even put up the big numbers. Rads has to play Barry's game to get on the ice as opposed to Barry playing to Rads' strengths. Same thing with Wilson. And a lot of you will be like we gave him a chance and he never did anything but Peverly had skills and obviously Boston thought so too and he's been a fixture in their top 6 for a while now and producing good numbers.

I just don't see that he puts guys in a position to succeed with the skill sets they have and the system he uses. He wants all the guys to play his system and while that's fine and dandy, you have to let guys play their games too. That's why they were drafted right, because of their skill sets? Not everyone is going to be a great two way player but if they excel offensively, does that mean they should sit because they aren't perfect defensively? Compensate that line with other good two way players to balance the lines out.

And the argument of who do we replace him with is a tired one. Trotz never coached a game in the NHL and everyone loves him so there are guys with little or no experience in the NHL that would do the job just fine. Remember, everyone had to coach their first NHL game at some point. Sometimes change is good, sometimes it's bad but to say, who do we replace him with is chicken ***** to me because to be best, you have to take chances sometimes. You have to step out of the norm and go with a calculated risk. We took a chance by going "all in" this season and we're one game from elimination because of a coach who has the inability to change on the fly. He made great decisions against Detroit and has done nothing to slow down or figure out how to put a chink in the armor of a Coyote team.

And while I haven't given up on the season since I still believe in this group of players, if it doesn't get done, a change is warranted and needs to be discussed.
this is especially interesting..... there was a clip of tortorella wearing out gaborik on the bench the other day.... i think he was saying make a difference, marian...
and I think he did on the next shift.

now, trotz obviously isn't torts.... but

your post has me thinking..... about the aspect of how to motivate players...
(and frankly its nice for someone to see what i see with weber cause i get jumped on all the time saying it to people)

brent petersen...........maybe, just maybe ......he is the fire and passion starter with some of these guys and he's not in the locker room so much...

i was told that he came down hard on these guys back in Dec and things were very different for a while.

So, yes, this is on trotz..... and if he's not seeing that these players are not motivated enough and he has a tool to do it.....he's not doing his job...
i wonder if he is such a "reasonable and logical and approachable" man...... that he just doesn't get in their face enough.... that he thinks the circumstances they are in, should be motivation enough to kick in first gear and beyond... that whatever motivation mentally is needed........he's just not pushing the right mental button or doesn't know what it is.

so, maybe he needs a quick session with a sports psychologist...... to help him see what he is not seeing, or that the approach he is taking does not work with everyone...

i think the coaches that are great..... tortorella, babcock........are rare i think trotz falls in the next tier, like the majority of the coaches in the nhl..


Last edited by predfan98: 05-06-2012 at 08:06 AM.
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05-06-2012, 08:30 AM
  #125
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Location: Spring Hill, TN
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I'm going to throw something else into this discussion. Tootoo gets cross checked to the head by Morris and Halischuk gets boarded by Klesla, why weren't either of those guys eating their teeth? For all the talk of this is a tight knit group, why aren't guys standing up for each other. Why didn't Trotz let Tootoo loose on Morris when he got out of the box? Why was Klesla left standing after such a dangerous hit? Trotz even said it was dangerous and he was holding onto Hali, so why wasn't anything done? Yeah, we take a penalty as well but geez guys, stand up for one another. Are they afraid they're going to get sat by Trotz for standing up for each other? If you're a team and a teammate is wronged, you right the wrong by defending him. I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. And if you're not going to stand up for each other at that moment, hit every thing that moves after that point but neither was done. It's a joke. We're too passive as a team and if the captain, who can be a physical force out there isn't doing it, who else is going to? If Weber were to start crushing people, others would as well. Guess what that leads to, turnovers by Phoenix which leads to chances for us. They are looking over their shoulders every time they touch the puck. Trotz, for the love of all things holy, unleash the fury.

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