HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Nashville Predators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Barry Trotz needs to be fired

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-06-2012, 05:49 PM
  #151
Legionnaire11
Registered User
 
Legionnaire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hendersonville
Country: United States
Posts: 2,750
vCash: 500
If Detroit fans can question Babcock's tenure, we can certainly question Trotz.

Legionnaire11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 05:55 PM
  #152
BourqueBourqueBork
Registered User
 
BourqueBourqueBork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
If Detroit fans can question Babcock's tenure, we can certainly question Trotz.
I'm pretty sure every single team that lost in the playoffs has people advocating firing their coach, save for maybe Florida.

BourqueBourqueBork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:07 PM
  #153
Fortheloveofthegame
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,189
vCash: 500
Hey, this happens to teams all the time! Look at St. Louis! The problem is, that you may lose a good portion of your core players before next season.

Fortheloveofthegame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:14 PM
  #154
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
 
101st_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Some Army fort
Country: United States
Posts: 5,461
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
im sorry I disagree. we are superior to the coyotes. everything leading up to this series.. regular season and playoffs.. on paper and play points to us being the superior team. problem is they look like the superior team and are outplaying us .. they lead 3-1 .. my belief is someone has to deal with the consequences whether it be coaches or players. im not sure which one I place more blame on yet
The regular season split doesn't show us as the superior team. They beat us twice in regulation, we beat them twice needing a shootout once. That "we are superior" thought process is why we're down and why our fanbase can't figure out how or why. They came in hotter ... playing a better team game all around down the last week or two of the regular season ... and they're continuing it.

Hitch just got swept in a series where the Blues lost by 2+ every game ... to the 8 seed ... a team that on paper should have folded against the Canucks in round one. "Superior"

101st_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:19 PM
  #155
NoNecksCurse
Registered User
 
NoNecksCurse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
we were a "considerable favorite" and we are now getting considerably spanked. someone will have to answer to it whether its right or wrong. it's sports.

NoNecksCurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:24 PM
  #156
INDhockeyfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwhiteandblue View Post
Hey, this happens to teams all the time! Look at St. Louis! The problem is, that you may lose a good portion of your core players before next season.
You hit the nail on the head right there. Lets fire Trotz when we will most likely lose Suter, AK, Radulov and whoever else and be left with the team that is the youngest in the NHL again. It isn't like we have a core all signed long term and need a coach to take them further. You have to look at the team we will have next year and who would be the best to coach them not the one we have right now.

INDhockeyfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:24 PM
  #157
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
 
101st_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Some Army fort
Country: United States
Posts: 5,461
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
we were a "considerable favorite" and we are now getting considerably spanked. someone will have to answer to it whether its right or wrong. it's sports.
Believing your own media clippings is usually a recipe for disaster. Funny that this Yotes squad is the team so many people mentioned wanting to play in the first round based on fears of the Wings. Another case of being careful what you ask for, you just might get it.

101st_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:25 PM
  #158
Top 6 Spaling
Registered User
 
Top 6 Spaling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Smashville
Country: United States
Posts: 10,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
we were a "considerable favorite" and we are now getting considerably spanked. someone will have to answer to it whether its right or wrong. it's sports.
Chicago was the considerable favorite. They got spanked. We are NOT getting spanked in this series. We lost in OT of game 1. That goal goes differently and its 2-2. Last game, we hit a post, had Horny miss an empty net, had Josi score on our own goal, AND had a goal waved off. Pick any two of those to got differently and its 3-1 us.

Going into the playoffs, I would say fans St. Louis, Vancouver, Detroit, Nashville, LA,a nd maybe San Jose were expecting to make the conference finals. Every team goes through this. Just because we lose doesn't mean our coach sucks. Should Babcock get fired because his team lost? Hitchcock?

I agree that I'm disappointed, but, to some extent, the fans of 29 teams end the season disappointed. Poile and Trotz gave us a chance to win the Cup. Maybe it doesn't happen this year. It didn't happen to 29 other teams either. There's no need for a knee jerk reaction. We are consistently playoff teams, have now won two rounds in a row, and have a chance, with some key signings and re-signs, to be Stanley Cup Contenders for the next decade.

Should Trotz be on a shorter leashstarting next year? Yes. Should be get fired? Hell no.

Top 6 Spaling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:34 PM
  #159
Reviled
Partisan
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 524
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
And another note...if we somehow comeback and win this series, and go on and face LA, will the fire Trotz crowd blame him for that one? I mean, LA is the lower seed, after all.
If the team, inclusive of and led by the coach, puts forth its best effort and falls short, no. Otherwise, yes.

Some fans do not believe the team, inclusive of and led by the coach, has put forth its best effort in this series.

Reviled is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:49 PM
  #160
29dryden29
Registered User
 
29dryden29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: London Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,795
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
im sorry I disagree. we are superior to the coyotes. everything leading up to this series.. regular season and playoffs.. on paper and play points to us being the superior team. problem is they look like the superior team and are outplaying us .. they lead 3-1 .. my belief is someone has to deal with the consequences whether it be coaches or players. im not sure which one I place more blame on yet
I place the blame on a couple intruders that arrived at the deadline and just after the team as much as I hate admitting it did well before the boys in red arrived.

29dryden29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 06:50 PM
  #161
Top 6 Spaling
Registered User
 
Top 6 Spaling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Smashville
Country: United States
Posts: 10,247
vCash: 500
Sometimes I swear we could win the cup and there would be people saying "FIRE TROTZ AND POILE! WE TOOK TOO MANY GAMES TO WIN IT!"

Top 6 Spaling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 07:47 PM
  #162
deanwormer
Registered User
 
deanwormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 963
vCash: 500
well, that was a humorous read - appears it was therapeutic for many of my board brethren. :-)

OK - so the question - Fire Trotz?
1 - not over Leggy and Fish as the top centers, unless you believe we should be rolling Smith, Smithson, Spals, or Goose instead. Or perhaps Pevs.
2 - not over the suspension. almost to a person we agreed or at least understood it for game 3 and you knew darned well Trotz is team-first guy, so you had to expect it for game 4. can argue it, and it's a legit complaint I think, but not a reason to can the guy.
3 - not over historical PO performance. One year we "should" have legitimately advanced and didnt - we all know the story. It happens. Lotta' peeps woulda' said we shouldn't have advance last year or this year, but we did. It happens.
4 - getting out-coached by Tippett. Well, I agree, he is. Not sure that's a reason to get fired, either. Lotsa' guys been out-coached, it's when you don't learn from it and it happens repeatedly it's time to change.
5 - Klein as 2nd pair. Not even gonna' argue whether he should or not, but as soon as Trotz has had options (Gil acquired) he's been playing 3rd pair and primary PK.

Having trouble remembering all the other particulars, but..... I just don't see a whole lotta' reason to say Trotz deserves to get canned. We got an extremely young team competitive in round 2 of the POs. We compare long-term favorably to most of the league as far as year-in year-out performance, and we certainly are fairing better than our expansion era brethren.

We are losing this series because Smith has been better than Rinne, because we've had several goals questionably/unfortunately waived off, and because Horny couldn't hit an open net twice in game 4 and Fish couldn't once, among other awfully good chances we had. Series isn't over yet; and the only thing I can see arguing about with Trotz is perhaps handling young kids. Now, if you think he's terrible at it that's fine - argue that. But I'm still not sure that's enough to offset how much he gets outta' mid-tier talent every freaking year.

deanwormer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 07:49 PM
  #163
Top 6 Spaling
Registered User
 
Top 6 Spaling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Smashville
Country: United States
Posts: 10,247
vCash: 500
No shame in being outcoached by they guy who I think is the best coach in the league.

Top 6 Spaling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:19 PM
  #164
jderick81
Registered User
 
jderick81's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Hendersonville, TN
Posts: 53
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
we were a "considerable favorite" and we are now getting considerably spanked. someone will have to answer to it whether its right or wrong. it's sports.
If the definition of spanked meant losing close, hard fought games by 1 goal; even coming back and answering almost every goal only to lose the game (one in overtime, another a fluke which should have gone to OT). Then yes we are getting considerably spanked.... Hard...

Unfortunately for your post, spanked generally refers to lopsided series or games that are won rather easily by one side or another, not bitterly fought for until the ending minute of every game, rather the victor is indicated in the first 2 periods.


Once again........ it is called losing. It happens sometimes. If someone has to answer then why did you not throw the referree in charge of the no goal call off the pedestrian bridge? It sure as hell wasn't Trotz's fault.

Tell me, why do you choose to cheer for a team when you will be so upset over not taking home the prize? I don't understand, why should someone lose their job over working so hard and coming up short??????

These "Fire my franchise coach!" antics should be saved for football and basketball (or other teams just not mine) because I don't want any of this disloyal bull**** in my sport. I love hockey/the Preds org. for how loyal it remains, even in a day in time where it seems athletes and coaches are disposable and/or disloyal.

jderick81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:24 PM
  #165
NoNecksCurse
Registered User
 
NoNecksCurse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
I'm just going to ignore this post above me. we're down 3-1 .. we could be up 3-1, yes but we're not.

we are getting spanked. and if we lose tomorrow, we will be absolutely whooped

NoNecksCurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:27 PM
  #166
Top 6 Spaling
Registered User
 
Top 6 Spaling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Smashville
Country: United States
Posts: 10,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
I'm just going to ignore this post above me. we're down 3-1 .. we could be up 3-1, yes but we're not.

we are getting spanked. and if we lose tomorrow, we will be absolutely whooped
I just fundamentally disagree that you can call a bunch of tight, one goal games a "spanking". Just my opinion.

Top 6 Spaling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:28 PM
  #167
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
 
101st_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Some Army fort
Country: United States
Posts: 5,461
vCash: 500
The same people who now call us a "considerable favorite" were the ones predicting the Bruins, Canucks, Hawks and Pens would escape the first round ... the same people who said we'd finish between 7th and 12th in the conference ... yet now they're suddenly correct?

If one goal losses in tight, hard fought games is getting spanked then the blues must have been waterboarded and electrocuted by the Kings and what we did to the Wings must be some form of aggravated assault.

101st_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:45 PM
  #168
Chileiceman
Registered User
 
Chileiceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Toronto
Country: Chile
Posts: 8,514
vCash: 500
The Yotes are by no means "spanking" you guys. It's a closer series than 3-1 IMO

Chileiceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:47 PM
  #169
Drake744
Unregistered User
 
Drake744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,373
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
we are getting spanked. and if we lose tomorrow, we will be absolutely whooped
Are we "getting spanked" in theory because we're down 3-1 or do you have any actual reasons aside from game 2 and lack of faceoff wins in game 1 (my thoughts)?

Drake744 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 08:52 PM
  #170
glenngineer
Registered User
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 3,977
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BourqueBourqueBork View Post
Last 10 Stanley Cup Champion coaches:

2011 - Claude Julien - 3 first round losses, 2 second round losses, 1 Cup

2010 - Joel Quenneville - 5 first round losses, 5 second round losses, 2 third round losses, 1 Cup

2009 - Dan Bylsma - 2 first round losses, 1 second round loss, 1 Cup

2008 - Mike Babcock - 2 first round losses, 2 second round losses, 1 third round loss, 2 finals losses, 1 Cup

2007 - Randy Carlyle - 2 first round losses, 1 second round loss, 1 third round loss, 1 Cup

2006 - Peter Laviolette - 2 first round losses, 1 second round loss, 1 finals loss, 1 Cup *in progress second round 2012

2004 - John Tortorella - 4 first round losses, 1 second round loss, 1 Cup *in progress second round 2012

2003 - Pat Burns - 3 first round losses, 4 second round losses, 2 third round losses, 1 finals loss, 1 Cup

2002 - Scotty Bowman - 5 first round losses, 6 second round losses, 2 third round losses, 4 finals losses, 9 Cups
^^^
Hey, maybe we can convince that guy to coach here.

2001 - Bob Hartley - 1 first round loss, 3 third round losses, 1 Cup

Still active in NHL

I didn't bother including the seasons these coaches missed the playoffs and/or got fired.


Tortorella, Bylsma, and Julien each have won the Cup, but in every other season, they have failed to make it past the second round.

The reason I point that out is that each of these guys had "their year" and went on to glory...but they haven't managed consistent success...even with some very stacked rosters. I can understand the frustration if the Predators don't make it past the second round this year...but I simply don't buy the argument that Trotz "can't go all the way." Going all the way generally involves some level of perfect circumstances and luck.

And another note...if we somehow comeback and win this series, and go on and face LA, will the fire Trotz crowd blame him for that one? I mean, LA is the lower seed, after all.
Yet all the coaches listed above have one thing we have never done, get to the finals and win. We haven't been to the conference finals either. While you can show that certain guys have failed like Torts, Bylsma and Julien none have the failure rate of Trotz. What is this 7 or 8 years in the playoffs for us? All of those except for one we have been bounced in round 1 with only our second 2nd round appearance this year. Trotz has never proven that he can go all the way. You can put up stats, show other coaches and their playoff records and spin it anyway you like, fact is, Trotz has never made it past the second round of the playoffs with an NHL club. Until he does or he wins a Cup, it will still be fact and while I'm all for loyalty and patience, my patience is starting to run thin. I wanted him gone a few years back and he slowly won me over but at this point, all I see is excuses of coulda, shoulda, woulda with our team. If this or that happened we'd be up or tied. Well guess what, those things didn't happen and we're down 3-1 and never having won an elimination game in our history. Now we have to win 3 of those in a row. I'm not too thrilled with that proposition to be perfectly honest. When a team makes a commitment like the Preds did, the expectations were raised and if we don't get the results that management and the owners wanted, it's time to have a discussion about what needs to stay the same and what needs to change and part of that discussion includes Trotz, whether you like it or not. Unfortunately it's not always fair to the coach but the results have not been different with Trotz all this time and the roster has changed over the years so at what point do you make a change? Do we give him another year? Another two years? 30 years? Something has to give at some point.

glenngineer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 09:04 PM
  #171
NoNecksCurse
Registered User
 
NoNecksCurse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
Are we "getting spanked" in theory because we're down 3-1 or do you have any actual reasons aside from game 2 and lack of faceoff wins in game 1 (my thoughts)?
solely being down 3-1.. I feel we could easily be up 3-1 .. but we're not. thus, getting spanked.

in the end, wins are all that matters.

just like the detroit series, some may say detroit outplayed us. but we won in 5. we crushed them. thats just how I feel

NoNecksCurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 09:12 PM
  #172
Drake744
Unregistered User
 
Drake744's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Nashville
Posts: 2,373
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
solely being down 3-1.. I feel we could easily be up 3-1 .. but we're not. thus, getting spanked.

in the end, wins are all that matters.

just like the detroit series, some may say detroit outplayed us. but we won in 5. we crushed them. thats just how I feel
"Scoreboard-wise" we're getting spanked yes, but I don't think the gameplay really matches the 3-1 outcome so far.

Drake744 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 09:15 PM
  #173
NoNecksCurse
Registered User
 
NoNecksCurse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 5,575
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake744 View Post
"Scoreboard-wise" we're getting spanked yes, but I don't think the gameplay really matches the 3-1 outcome so far.
agreed.

all that matters to me is wins, though. and I can't help but be incredibly disappointed through 4 games.

NoNecksCurse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 09:51 PM
  #174
hockey diva
Registered User
 
hockey diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beleriand
Posts: 1,262
vCash: 500
We are being completely outplayed and outcoached.

I am in the fire Trotz camp and have been for a while. He has not handled the younger guys well at all in the time I have been following this franchise. Guys that were/are supposed to be our core guys Hartnell and Wilson in particular. And seems to love third-fourth line knuckleheads like Smithson and Yip to a fault. Gives vets passes for poor play.

I am tired of being a great regular season team and bombing out in the playoffs. The only respect you get is for winning the Cup. Bottom line. I just don't believe Trotz is the guy who can take us to the promised land.

hockey diva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-06-2012, 10:11 PM
  #175
BourqueBourqueBork
Registered User
 
BourqueBourqueBork's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,660
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Yet all the coaches listed above have one thing we have never done, get to the finals and win. We haven't been to the conference finals either. While you can show that certain guys have failed like Torts, Bylsma and Julien none have the failure rate of Trotz. What is this 7 or 8 years in the playoffs for us? All of those except for one we have been bounced in round 1 with only our second 2nd round appearance this year. Trotz has never proven that he can go all the way.
Trotz won't prove that he can go all the way...until he goes all the way. That's the problem with that argument. My point was with the coaches I highlighted, that they regularly get bounced in rounds 1 or 2...but one single time they went all the way.

As far as the "failure rate" for Trotz...how many of those playoff appearances were to superior teams?

04 - lost in 6 to the President's Trophy winning #1 seed Red Wings.
06 - lost in 5 to the 5th seed Sharks. Vokoun was injured...which kind of screwed us.
07 - lost in 5 to the 5th seed Sharks. This was definitely a playoff disappointment.
08 - lost in 6 to the President's Trophy winning, and eventual Cup champ #1 seed Red Wings. Making the playoffs was an extraordinary feat that year.
09 - missed playoffs for the first time in 5 seasons
10 - lost in 6 to the #2 seed and eventual Cup champ Blackhawks. I think we all remember the infamous game 5 that turned that series.
11 - won first round in 6 against the 4th seeded Ducks, lost second round in 6 to the #1 seed President's Trophy Winning Canucks, who lost in the Cup Finals.
12 - won first round in 5 against the 5th seed Red Wings. Second round in progress.

To recap our playoff seeding matchups:
Three #5 seeds
One #4 seed
One #3 seed
One #2 seed
Three #1 seeds

Part of the issue with pointing out Trotz's history of failure is that we've had some really tough draws. Granted, I do think we should've moved on past the Sharks in 06...but for some reason that group with Marleau has always given us fits. In a number of the other matchups, we were plain and simple outmatched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
You can put up stats, show other coaches and their playoff records and spin it anyway you like, fact is, Trotz has never made it past the second round of the playoffs with an NHL club.
Replace "second round" with "first round" and this was the same exact argument before last season. Yet he past the first round. And he did it again. Pray tell, why does that mean he will never make it past the second round?


Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Until he does or he wins a Cup, it will still be fact and while I'm all for loyalty and patience, my patience is starting to run thin. I wanted him gone a few years back and he slowly won me over but at this point, all I see is excuses of coulda, shoulda, woulda with our team. If this or that happened we'd be up or tied.
So, in other words, your loyalty has an expiration date? Say we fire Trotz. How long are you giving the next coach until he makes the 3rd round or beyond?

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Well guess what, those things didn't happen and we're down 3-1 and never having won an elimination game in our history.
Last year called. We won an elimination game in Vancouver to force game 6. Maybe you should brush up on your Preds history. Especially recent history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Now we have to win 3 of those in a row. I'm not too thrilled with that proposition to be perfectly honest. When a team makes a commitment like the Preds did, the expectations were raised and if we don't get the results that management and the owners wanted, it's time to have a discussion about what needs to stay the same and what needs to change and part of that discussion includes Trotz, whether you like it or not. Unfortunately it's not always fair to the coach but the results have not been different with Trotz all this time and the roster has changed over the years so at what point do you make a change? Do we give him another year? Another two years? 30 years? Something has to give at some point.

I'm not thrilled about being down 3-1. I also wasn't thrilled with dropping game 2 against Detroit. This are hair-pulling times for fans. We're all in the same boat here.

And yes, management and ownership did make a huge commitment. They added 4 players to our roster. 4 players that didn't play with us all season. Add in the midseason moves that brought in Yip and brought up Bourque, and you have a huge change in the team's makeup. I can't help but think that we almost tried to do too much there. Team chemistry is big, and Trotz had to spend the last part of the season juggling lines and rotating scratches. That's a helluva distraction in itself.

And I find it strange to argue that the results have stayed the same with Trotz when we went to never winning a series to winning round one two years straight. But apparently the only result that would satisfy some of you is if we won the Cup every season.

When we make it to round 3, whether Trotz is coaching or not, you same fans will be saying "but we've never made it to the Cup Finals! CRUCIFY! CRUCIFY!"

BourqueBourqueBork is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.